stockman311

The 3-4 is worse at stopping the pass because a team like the Saints can run a 4 receiver set and an OLB has to TRY and cover that guy. Good luck.

The 4-3 is better at stopping the run because the DL are larger and meant to occupy blockers so that the stout LB's in the middle can fill in the holes created and the faster OLB's can string outside runs out.

Simple enough for you? And by the way, 7 out of the top 10 rushing D's in the league were 3-4's by the way. Your math always seems to be off. Maybe you were an English major.

stockman311

By the way, the only reason the 3-4 teams didn't make a clean sweep of the top 5 in rushing Defenses is because Minnesota has Pat and Kevin Williams up the middle and EJ Henderson at MLB. That kind of talent trumps scheme every time.

CantonLegend

so the 4-3 an OLB doesnt have to cover a WR in a 4 WR set? im not sure what you are saying

if a team has 4 WRs then the defense better be playing a dime or at the very least nickel......no team should be in a base defense if the other team is running a play with 4 WRs

btw.....6 of them were actually 3-4s.....it seems like we both should let others do the math

i thought the 49ers ran a 4-3.....didnt know they ran a 3-4 til i went back and looked......but technically there are 12 top 10 rush defenses because 3 teams tied for 10th place......vikings, eagles, bengals, texans, falcons, and titans all played a base 4-3

"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

stockman311

With a late-season collapse and a 6-10 record, there was little doubt in Green Bay that there would be some significant changes.

There was talent everywhere, especially on defense, but the personnel wasn't being used at optimum effectiveness. The Packers had one of the top secondaries in the NFL, athleticism at linebacker and an above-average line, yet they weren't creating problems for opposing offenses in the same fashion as the Dallas Cowboys or Baltimore Ravens -- though not many defenses did. Still, the caliber of players weren't that different, so something had to give.

Personnel breakdown
After taking a look at Green Bay's current roster, and what the team might be able to acquire this offseason, Pat Kirwan thinks the Packers' switch to a 3-4 defense can work. More ... Packers coach Mike McCarthy opted to switch from a 4-3 defensive front to a 3-4, the same scheme run by the Super Bowl champion Pittsburgh Steelers, who had the top-ranked defense during the regular season. McCarthy hired former Carolina Panthers and Houston Texans head coach Dom Capers as his defensive coordinator to take over the scheme and teach it to players and coaches.

The movement of one player off the line and adding one to the linebacking corps might sound simple -- football is just running, throwing, catching and tackling, right? However, such a shift in philosophy could be as radical as switching from the veer option to the spread offense.

"We like the versatility it gives you," Capers said of the 3-4 defense. "Just in very general terms, when you're in a 4-3, it's pretty much predetermined who your four rushers are. In a 3-4, you know three linemen will be your rushers. That fourth rusher can come from one of the linebackers. Then, when you get five rushers, you have a lot of combinations. Hopefully, you've got enough flexibility in packages to rush different combinations in the 3-4 because you have another linebacker-type of player on the field."

In theory, it sounds like a way to counter offenses -- such as the "Wildcat" -- that are becoming more diverse and feature more athletic players at the skill positions. In reality, the production from playing a 3-4, specifically when you have to transition from a 4-3, might not always give you Steelers- or Ravens-type results.

Personnel must be altered. Coaches accustomed to teaching a 4-3 have to learn much of the new defense from scratch. New concepts and disciplines must be followed to the last detail, from the head coach to the third-string nose tackle. Middle linebackers in a 4-3 have to grow accustomed to sharing that space with another linebacker in a 3-4, and that's not always an easy adjustment for some players.


Al Bello / Getty Images
Nine teams in 2008 ran a 3-4 defense, including James Harrison's top-ranked Steelers, and only two failed to land in the top half of the league's defensive rankings.

How 3-4 teams ranked defensively in 2008
Team Total Passing Rushing Scoring
Steelers 1 1 2 1
Ravens 2 2 3 3
Cowboys 8 5 12 20
Patriots 10 11 15 8
49ers 13 20 T-13 23
Dolphins 15 25 10 9
Jets 16 29 7 18
Chargers 25 31 11 15
Browns 26 14 28 T-16
"There will be a transition," Capers said. "How fast you transition into a true 3-4 is based on your personnel and how well they adapt to the things you ask them to do. You've got to be flexible enough to keep some 4-3 elements but also keep enough flexibility to feature your best football players."

Those best football players tend to be the linebackers, especially outside linebackers. Pittsburgh's James Harrison was voted the league's top defensive player and, with his 100-yard interception return of a Kurt Warner pass in Super Bowl XLIII, also delivered one of the most spectacular plays in the big game's lore. Dallas' DeMarcus Ware led the league with 20 sacks, and Miami's Joey Porter was second with 17.5. All three are outside linebackers, tough enough to play as a 4-3 end on run downs yet athletic enough to rush the passer or drop into coverage.

For the Packers, defensive end Aaron Kampman, a tireless player who had 9.5 sacks last season, has been tagged to play the role. He is accustomed to playing with his hand on the ground at defensive end, which he'll still do at times, but he'll also have to fall back into coverage or rush from off the line of scrimmage from a two-point stance.

"The biggest thing is when you play defensive end, you don't have to think," said former Cincinnati Bengals defensive end/outside linebacker David Pollack, whose promising career was cut short because of a serious neck injury. "You line up, you have an assignment and you do that assignment regardless.

"When you move to linebacker, your assignment is predicated on formations. You have to know when it's Cover 2, if they run at me, what to do or what my responsibilities are if you see action away from you. There's a lot more thinking, so it can really slow you down. What killed me is I would have everything right and then a guy would go in motion, and that changed what I was supposed to do.

"When you are (at) end and you're an effective pass rusher, you can get in a rhythm. You can figure out what the guy across from you likes to do when he run blocks or how you can beat a guy when he backs up to pass block. It's different when you play with your hand off the ground."

The micromanagement when playing outside linebacker is why Capers said he'll maintain a lot of the 4-3 principles the Packers have used while making the transition.

The Arizona Cardinals hoped to transition to a 3-4 front after Ken Whisenhunt took over for Dennis Green as head coach in 2007. Former defensive coordinator Clancy Pendergast said they implemented some 3-4 principles, but because of personnel played a "hybrid" front, mixing both elements into the scheme.

The interior linemen didn't always need to eat up two blockers or two-gaps, like most 3-4 defensive linemen have to do. That was the big difference in how they played and why the Cardinals' front typically featured four defensive linemen, although Travis LaBoy, Bertrand Berry and Antonio Smith played as defensive ends and outside linebackers depending on the call.

The biggest change in personnel tends to come on the defensive line. Whereas four-man fronts usually feature a nose tackle in the 300-pound range, another tackle in the 280- to 290-pound range and ends weighing between 255 to 285 pounds, 3-4 lines usually boast a nose tackle who's well over 300 pounds and ends who are between 280 and 300 pounds.

Although Green Bay plans to add at least one outside linebacker, up front, it seemingly has the type of players to fit a 3-4 scheme. Tackles Johnny Jolly and Ryan Pickett are 320 and 330 pounds, respectively. Defensive end Mike Montgomery weighs 273, somewhat undersized when compared to Dallas' Marcus Spears (315) or Pittsburgh's Aaron Smith (298).

The work of a 3-4 lineman is brutal and often unrewarding. Some of the best linebackers in the league -- Baltimore's Ray Lewis and Terrell Suggs; Dallas' Bradie James; Pittsburgh's James Farrior, Harrison and LaMarr Woodley -- play behind human Hummers at nose tackle in Haloti Ngata (Ravens), Jay Ratliff (Cowboys) and Casey Hampton (Steelers), as well as mammoth ends.

The linebackers tend to go to Pro Bowls, while the linemen often are relegated to the whirlpool.

"You've got to have the personnel to make it work," New Orleans Saints defensive line coach Bill Johnson said.



Johnson was with Dan Reeves' Atlanta Falcons staff when Wade Phillips was the defensive coordinator and took over as interim head coach. Under Phillips, the Falcons switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4. The personnel wasn't ideal, and after a few seasons -- and a coaching change to Jim Mora in 2004 -- the Falcons reverted back to a 4-3, the scheme they still play.

"The problem they had in the 3-4 scheme wasn't with one game," Johnson said. "There were 16. It takes large men to play that 3-4 over the course of the season. You've got to hold some people off those linebackers, so it takes good-sized people and some luck.

"To have that defense be highly effective, it takes special people playing off the edge at outside linebacker. If you lose one of those guys, they're hard to replace. You've got to have not just good starting personnel but depth.

"I prefer a 4-3, but there are some beautiful things about a 3-4."

Mainly, Johnson said, it is very difficult for quarterbacks to diagnose pre-snap reads when facing a 3-4. In a 4-3, the middle linebacker and safety tend to dictate where the rush is coming from and what pass coverage has been called.

In a 3-4, one outside linebacker could show blitz and the other could come -- with the safety, cornerback or inside linebacker. Or, as Harrison showed in the Super Bowl, he could be on the line of scrimmage, feign a pass rush and step back into coverage.

Even though the 3-4 has been around for years, Capers believes it could be a neutralizer against offenses that are using more plays more often -- plays that used to be called only on third downs, when defenses went to nickel or "sub" packages. He views it as a defensive scheme that gets the best athletes on the field and forces more mismatches than a 4-3.

"If you've got a number of linebackers with outstanding athletic ability, you can match up better with all the athletes offenses are putting on the field," Capers said. "It's possible to match all that ability on defense. You've got to be able to match up your skill with their skill."

The Packers' change in defense will take time. Right now, coaches are spending in-season hours in meetings being taught the scheme and its nuances by Capers. Later, they will be challenged to teach it to players who might not have ever spent time in the scheme. Much of what Green Bay does with the draft and free agency will be dictated by the switch.

It could prove to be a move that changes the Packers' future.



By the way CANTON, the Packers were 26th in the league against the rush in 2008 with the 4-3, and 1st against the rush in 2009 with the 3-4. Speechless aren't you.


Also, do the Saints remotely have anyone in their lineup that could be considered and OLB in a 3-4? I'll answer for you. No we do not. It really makes sense to draft a NT for a 3-4 scheme like Cody, with a defense loaded with 4-3 players with your first round pick doesn't it? I won this argument about a year ago, so you should probably just let it go.

CantonLegend

should i read that? i thought we were keeping it short.

you hinted at something about the packers being awesome against the run this year and being terrible last year

werent we a terrible defense last year? how'd we do this year?

teams change from year to year.....the fact that you keep claimin yourself the victor of this argument makes me giggle because nobody here has given you the crown except yourself

this article still said nothing about how the 3-4 is better at stopping the run except that the packers turned it around

in fact it said specifically that the 3-4 matches up with the skill positions better because of the speed and athleticsm which implies it matches up with the WRs, tight ends, and running backs better....not better with the linemen which is where the running game starts

you said we dont have any players that could play 3-4 OLB....you mean like bobby mccray, jonathan cassillas, stanley arnoux, and jeff charleston?

"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

stockman311

No one needs to crown me. 2+2=4 That argument wins no matter how badly you want to shout 2+2=5

Did you really just name McCray, Cassillas, Arnoux, and Charleston as your bright shining examples of a 3-4 OLB? HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! Hold on, hold on......HAHAHAHAHAH!!!! I'm sure defenses would tremble a quake. I just had to block Demarcus Ware, how on earth am I going to stop Jeff Charleston???

Seriously, do you even watch football? Be honest.

By the way the Saints went from 17th agains the rush in 2008 to 21st against the rush in 2009. That's such amazing improvement!

You know what personnel was different from the Saints from 2008 to 2009? Sharper and Greer. That's it. Grant, Ellis, Clancy, Smith, Vilma, Fujita, Shanle. Front seven all the same.

You know what was different about the Packers? They switched schemes and added Clay Matthews and IMMEDIATELY shot from the bottom of the league to first. I'm sure it was the personnel turnover.

Just go away.

The 3-4 is a better run stopping defense than the 4-3 and we are not drafting Cody. That is all.

CantonLegend

im sure its the same feeling they get when they watch film and shake in their boots over scott fujita and scott shanle lol.....not every 3-4 team has a stud OLB....thats why i didnt even think the 49ers ran a 3-4 because i had never heard of their OLBs

bah. the ultimate argument....ive been defeated....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

yea it had nothing to do with our injuries at DT and our pass rush mentality we installed....not to mention we ran a lot of 3 down linemen packages

"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

stockman311

Let's just say I am EAGERLY awaiting April 22nd. Please God, I don't ask for much. Please let Cody be available at 32 when we pick. Please.
You don't honestly think we take him there if available? Right? You just like to argue, correct?

CantonLegend

nah i honestly think the saints are looking at either him or another player like him

plus, you still havent shown why the 3-4 is designed to stop the run better....you are very good at posting long drawn out descriptions and articles but none of them have shown anything to help prove your point.....the one argument you have is that the packers improved their team in 1 year

in 2005 we were the #20th ranked offense......in 2006 we were ranked #1

teams improve from year to year......its the nature of the league

hagan714

a good 34 or a good 43 defense against the run is based on the personal.

now the results that surprised me the most was his:

Edds, A.J. 4.28 20 Yd Shuttle

This is amazing for this guy. I have been waiting for this 20

A.J. Edds, Iowa
Height: 6-4. Weight: 246.
Projected 40 Time: 4.72.
Combine 40 Time: 4.67.
Benchx225: 16. Vertical: .
Projected Round (2010): 2-3.
1/8/10: Perhaps the top pure strongside linebacker in the 2010 NFL Draft,

he is on my radar.

Weatherspoon will be gone unless the saints move up the board.

Jerry Hughes, TCU
Height: 6-2. Weight: 255.
Projected 40 Time: 4.64.
Combine 40 Time: 4.59.
Benchx225: 26
Dropping just enough for the saints?

now the saints need to watch this guy at NT

Linval Joseph, East Carolina
Height: 6-4. Weight: 328.
Projected 40 Time: 5.27.
Combine 40 Time: 5.09.
Benchx225: 39. Vertical: .
Projected Round (2009): 3-4.

now if the saints walked away with these three

WLB Jerry Hughes, TCU, 6-2, 255, 4.59

SLB, A.J. Edds, Iowa, 6-4, 246, 4.67

DT, Linval Joseph, East Carolina, 6-4, 328, 5.09

I will be happy

"We may have lost the game, but you'll be hurting tomorrow." Doug Atkins