25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Can someone please tell me why so many people keep on going on about the Saints 25th ranked defense? I might be getting this wrong but it seems to me it is based on yards given up. Well I want to let you into a little secret...I DON'T CARE! Our defense was a lot better last year than people gave it credit for. Go ahead and make 60 yards a drive because on your last play I am going to rip the ball out of your hands or intercept it. Give me a 25th ranked defense and a Superbowl over a top ten defense and nothing to show for it at the end of the season anytime. Yes I would love to have a number one defense, offense, special teams and another Superbowl but guess what? Not happening. We were fine last year with our 'poor' defense. People are waiting for us to fail just so they could say 'well, I told you so'. Something tells me if we did get another Lombardi and went undefeated, there would still be people putting us at 5 on the list for the following year. Anyway, that's my view.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

25th ranked defense in yardage allowed

20th ranked defense in points allowed

our defense was pretty bad.......its been awhile since a team with a defense ranked that low has won a championship

im not sure we can pull it off again

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

+1. I'd sure rather shut some people down - even just a little - rather than rely on the turnover. My heart might not survive another season of that sorta thing - which might make some people around here pretty happy, so on second thought I'll cut down on the sodium and hope for the best. LOL

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

It makes them feel a little better to have something to criticize us for. But the fact is we still kicked their a** last year, even with the 25th ranked defense.

:bng:

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Those numbers are skewed due to the vast amount of injuries to starters throughout the year (Porter, Greer, Fujita, Ellis). I know it's a case of coulda-shoulda-woulda, but those numbers wouldn't have been near as high had they been in the line-up. Plus, most of the yards and points were given up when teams were playing from behind, especially early in the season. Kolb throwing for 400+ yards, for example. When the starters were in, the defense was not a bad one. Sure, there were holes that were apparent, but they were able to compensate by forcing turnovers. That 25th ranking doesn't bother me from last year. They made their run through the postseason and won the Super Bowl when they had all the starters in (except Grant which was probably a blessing more than a hindrance). If they can stay healthy, that ranking will be much higher than 25th.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Not really. The Colts won it a few years back with one of the worst defenses in the league. It's all about creating turnovers and making plays when it counts.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

cots had the 21st ranked defense in yards allowed that year.....and the 10th ranked defense in points allowed

our defense was still worse

and yes its nice to create turnovers, but a lot of that is luck and you cant rely on luck.....you need to rely on talent and ability and hope that a little luck happens

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

injuries happen every year.....we have to expect that again this year considering most of our key players on defense have yet to play a full season with us

our defense definitly didnt get better this offseason.....so considering we have to take injuries into account as well as our offseason losses and lack of gains, can we really assume that our defense will be better?

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Really? When did this start happening?


Seriously, though. You act like the defense was just pathetic. The only time they were really bad was when those players I stated were all out of the line-up, and they collectively missed quite a bit of time. The problem wasn't that defense wasn't good, it's that there wasn't much depth. You say that the defense didn't get better this offseason, but that is just as much speculation as someone that would say we have. What proof do you have that they haven't gotten better? Let me answer that for you. You don't. No one has seen what the new players will bring to the table until they touch the field. Come on, Canton. You should know that. You can't always go by what is on paper.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

i am speculating as much as anybody because thats what we have to go on

however, ive lived a good nearly 30 years of life and noticed that by subtracting important pieces of anything, not just a football team, does not usually make something better

we lost key parts of our defense and even tho i know you werent a fan of grant, there was a reason he started for us even after the huge amounts of criticism he faced

not to mention fujita and clancy

like you mentioned.....our secondary was in shambles last season and that ranking is a bit skewed.....even our DTs went down for some time

but take into account that tracy porter, darren sharper, jabari greer, sedrick ellis, and any other DT we have will likely miss time just by looking at their past history

not to mention we lose will smith for the first 4 games most likely

we have a very talented defense....but we are still missing a cornerstone or 2 i believe

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

I believe we will be better while this gelling proccess is continuing to move foward. Gregg tutoring our defense is definately gonna pay off in this second year with our eager young players, gaining the tenacity gregg offers.DEFENSE

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Our Defense is still pretty young. Should be better this year with the added time playing together and the depth. Our Defense did it's Job and then some by putting points on the board and sealing a playoff win and a Superbowl win. They were #1 when it counted the most.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

You're right on what I think about Grant. He was one of those who "cashed it in" after signing a big contract. He became expendable due to not living up to the money he was making. I liked Fujita alot, but he was definitely replaceable. As far as Clancy, I don't see that he would have been that much better of an option than what we had, and especially with him being 32 by the start of the season and coming off a season-ending injury, that makes him even less of an option. I think the additions they made this offseason (Brown, Wilkerson, Robinson, Woods) and Arnoux and Vaughn, provided they are healthy, will actually help the team. That is speculation on my part, as well. I just don't think the defense is as bad as you say it is. And if I remember correctly, you were singing the same tune I'm singing now about the injuries when fans of other teams were coming in here bashing our defense last year.

I agree that there is more that could be brought in to improve it, but the Saints had their hands tied as far as free agents were concerned due to that stupid Final 8 rule.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Indeed. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

The point was not who had the worst defense between the two. The point was you don't need an great defense to make it to or win the Superbowl.

If you win the turnover battle, the chances of you winning the game increase to about 90% I believe.

While luck plays a part in it, obviously that player's talent and ability to get into position to create these turnovers do too. So I don't see what you're trying to get at here. I didn't saying anything about relying on luck.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Great points everyone.

Remember that statistics don't tell the whole story.

Was was obvious about our defense last year is that we had very little depth.

That takes years to develop and injuries make it even more apparent.

Pieces are being added, but I agree w Canton that we are still 1-2 cornerstone players away.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

my point about that....and yes i agree to a point....is that just because we won it last year with a bad defense, doesnt mean we should try and get by with that again....we shouldve at least been trying to add to our holes this offseason....apparently they are trying but it doesnt seem like they are trying very hard

idk about the percentage but of course......thats why we won so many games....because we took the ball from them and didnt give it up ourselves

turnovers have a lot to do with luck....thats where luck joined the conversation......you're right that talent and ability go hand in hand because the talent and preparation create a lot of luck

but like i was saying before.....turnovers are more luck than skill.....so its safe to say that our defense was very lucky IMO.....we really didnt stop anybody this year except the pats.....we just thrived off of turnovers

can we get by another year without stopping anyone? history(which really means nothing) has shown us that you really cant get by like that

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

We are about the same team as last year with a few exceptions. The advantage to that is that collectively they are even better prepared than last year. The disadvantage is that we are basically the same team as last year with a lot more film on us and our tendencies.
What I'm trying to say is that we haven't significantly upgraded our weaknesses. jmo Our defense was extremely aggressive and opportunistic which led to a lot of turnovers. We may not have the ball bounce our way this year like we did last year. But then again...... we might. I am a firm believer that you make your own luck. Fortune smiles on the well prepared.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

We score so many points our D just needs to be a little above average..and BAM....superbowl..i think thats what your all trying to say.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Canton - For me personally, I beg to differ on how our offseason has gone and how much we've actually accomplished. We shed a lot of money and deadweight by releasing Grant and made a solid signing in Alex Brown who should prove to be an upgrade. We re-signed one of our top free agents in Sharper and drafted some quality players on the defensive side of the ball. I really do believe we improved as opposed to some of the media and fans. As many pointed out, some of our injuries played a big part in our defensive statistics. I think it's overblown on how "average" or "bad" (some might say looking at numbers), our defense really was.

At our supposed holes on defense, DT and OLB I persume, we still managed to win a ton of games and ended up with a ring. So... is it really that significant of a hole as some are portraying? I'm really not concerned the least bit of the Fujita loss... those numbers are easily replaceable with what we already have on the roster. I was watching the news yesterday and Zurich (local sports guy) mentioned that we do play a lot of 4-2-5 leaving a linebacker out quite a bit... just saying that position isn't that big of a concern. Now while I am concerned at DT, any type of consistent production from anyone there will prove to be an immediate improvement. All in all, I do believe we got better on the defensive side of the ball... just my opinion.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

I was watching the replay of the MNF Patroits game and they said that
the Saints were 32-0 in games where the led by 10 points or more.

After that game it was 33-0. Don't know if the streak is still alive.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

yea I found it amusing during the build up to the SB when the hacks like Skip Bayless kept referring to this 25th ranked defense...of course they failed to mention that defense was ranked 15th or so when everyone was healthy... and showed it against the Annoited One Peyton Manning.. 17 points.... now we have added depth at Corner Back and DT in the draft... we have upgraded at Defensive End.... and today we have plugged the gap left when Fujita left.... not to mention we have a couple of draft choices from last year that didnt see the field... At worst we should again be mid level... 13-18th.... and with our offense that enough for another deep run.......

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

I think Tampa broke that streak. Weren't we up 14-3 at one point in that game?

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

yep yep.....up 14 to zip in the first

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Yea, but I don't think it should count. Most of our first string was on the sideline injured.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

here, here. i'll second that.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Didn't the Colts win SB XLI with a last place D?

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Exactly. All you heard that year was "The Greatest Show on Turf." When the shoe was on a Saints foot last season, all the talk was about how subpar the defense was. All that talk was cheap, worthless. I don't pay much attention to what media "experts" say. Eventually their feet wind up in their mouths.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

21st

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Even worse; we were up by 17-0 but as the 19-0 record was gone we went for another one and got it. The first team to win the Superbowl after losing their last three regular season games. So we lost that on purpose...didn't we....?

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

I owuld like to have some better numbers BUT I will take a championship & low ranked "D" anyday!!

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

If we didn't have an explosive offense, I'd be concerned. But what you need to consider is that Williams has designed a bend-don't break defense that is going to take a lot of chances to force turnovers. They can afford to do because they have someone like Brees leading the offense.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Apparently that 25th is a closed formula that does not account for preferable statistics like.

Interceptions #3
Sacks #13


8 Defensive Touch Downs.. Probably 10 maybe higher, can not confirm. Seven of them were in the first 8 games (Sharper 6, Greer 2, Roby 2, Porter 1)
Defensive Touch downs in 4 consecutive games.

Wait.. i am sorry those two Spectacular numbers are not even listed in the Team Stats on the NFL.com! WTF???

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

how was our run defense last year?

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Does last year even matter anymore? They won the Super Bowl! You are taking ONE category where they did not perform well and basically saying it is the end-all, be-all to this coming season just because YOU don't think they have done anything to improve it. Can we just wait until the season starts and see what they do on the field before we start critiquing their moves or non-moves that may or may not have improved the run defense?

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

that would make for a boring forum if everybody was content with everything all the time

im pointing out our biggest weakness....providing very solid reasons for why we should've fixed it

and trying to prove why we should be worried about it this season

some teams we will be able to simply outscore.......others we will struggle against because of our weaknesses

sure.....i can stay quiet until the season starts about our weakness.....but if it comes back up.....what then? do i get bonus points for being right.....or do i just get criticized again because im always nay-saying

my point is that its still a weakness and adding a player with questionable work ethic and talent to a rotation that is already fairly weak is not the answer

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Rankings are an approximation, they don't fully represent a defense's effectiveness. IDC if we're 1st or 32nd, there's always room for improvement.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

They will get better as long as this staff stays intact. I thought it was rather obvious that they had been playing soft up until this year for some reason. Somebody finally came in and put a foot up their butt and they started playing with intensity. I have always liked the phrase that said something like it's OK to make a mistake...just do it at full speed. In the past they were too afraid to make mistakes and somewhere between the Dome Patrol years to last year they just lost the intensity. I'm glad it's back.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

What if it doesn't come up? Ever thought of that? You, me, nor anyone here can say with any certainty if they are or are not improved until they hit the field and show us something. It's like I said before in this thread. It's all speculation on whether or not the defense has improved. Rankings mean absolutely nothing. The thing that matters most is wins and losses. Regardless of their 25th ranking in defense last year, the Saints won the Super Bowl. Why did they win the Super Bowl? It was because the defense capitalized on opposing teams mistakes during the playoffs just as they had done during the regular season and the strong point of the team (the offense) clicked on all cylinders in all three games they played. The defense stepped up when it mattered. Sure, that can't be relied upon game in and game out, but who is to say they won't get similar turnover production this year? Don't get me wrong. I've said before that I agree that there are things that could be improved to stop the run more effectively, but health is the key for this team. But, since you feel like that stats are important (talking about their overall defensive ranking from last season), let me throw some stats out there for you to wrap your brain around:

Game 1 vs. Detroit: Detroit had 33 total rushing yards on 20 attempts. A 1.7 YPC average.

Game 2 vs. Philly: The Eagles had 79 yards on 22 attempts. A 3.6 YPC average

Game 3 vs. Buffalo: The Bills had 89 yards on 21 carries for a 4.2 YPC average

Game 4 vs. NYJ: The Jets had 132 yards rushing in the game. 24 of those were from Sanchez on 4 carries, because he was running for his life all game long. 20 yards came from Brad Smith on two carries. Their three runningbacks totaled 88 yards on 4.2 YPC. The first time the Saints allowed over 100 yards on the ground, but it took five Jets players to get them there.

Game 5 vs. NYG: Giants had 88 yards on 19 carries for a 4.4 YPC avg. That's a good average, but it's hard to get yards on the ground when you are having to pass because you playing catch up all game long.

Game 6 vs. Miami: The Dolphins had 137 yards on the ground for a 4.6 YPC average. This is where stats become skewed. 68 of those yards were on the long TD run by Rickey Williams that was to the outside....not up the middle. Take away that long gain, and the Dolphins "Wildcat" was held in check, because they only totaled 69 yards on 29 carries. That is a 2.4 YPC average.

Why am I only listing these games? It's simple. These are the games when Sedrick Ellis was in the line-up before he went down with a knee injury in the Miami game. Ellis went on to miss the next four games. In the next three, the Saints gave up 151 to Michael Turner, 149 to Deangelo Williams, and 131 to Steven Jackson. That's 431 yards with their best starting DT out of the line-up.

Also, let me remind you that even after Ellis' return to the line-up, there were only two really bad games that the Saints had against the run. That was the Dallas game where the Barber/Jones combination did a number on them, and then Cadillac Williams in the 2nd Tampa game. Other than that, the run defense wasn't horrible. Most of the defensive struggles the Saints had up to the Cowboys game was through the air with Porter and Greer both out of the line-up.

I will sum this up, and then I will digress on this entire discussion. The Saints problem was not necessarily their run defense. It was their depth. The defense became vulnerable when starters were out of the line-up. Say what you will about starters getting hurt all the time and it's to be expected and yadda, yadda, yadda, but here's the thing: the Saints did not have enough DEPTH to even compare to the abilities the starters had to defend. Hargrove was serviceable, but you and I have both agreed before that he is undersized at DT and was manhandled several times on run plays. His production came mostly against the pass. The Saints used three different linebackers to play in Fujita's spot when he went down (Evans, Dunbar, and Waters). We all know about the Jenkins project at corner and the players picked up off the street when Porter and Greer went down. This is where the Saints true problem came from, and not their inability to stop the run when they did a more than adequate job when the starters were healthy. It was depth...plain and simple.

The Saints, IMHO, have done a good job at trying to improve that depth with the drafting of Robinson and Woods, and the signing of Ingram just in case they are bitten by the injury bug yet again. However, I am not going to go out on a limb and say they ARE going to be better or that they have not improved at all. I'm going to let their play do the talking once the season starts. If it improves, then hell yes. If it doesn't, then I will be right there with you saying that steps should be taken to improve that area of the defense.

Re: 25th ranked defense...So what!!!
 

Dirty Dirty.. You know I have a thread about our run defense.. lol

It was 21st in regular season and 6th in post season. Still better than 25th.

In answer to your question.

Now as good as it will be this year!:bng: