|
Don't take MY word for it...
You\'re a spin doctor 08,
Spin doctor ???? You just laid off over a 100 words of presumptive garbage and still did not address the post . And again, if you think the offense the Saints run is a \"West Coast\" offense you\'re drinkin\' too much of your own Kool-Aid. What offense are the Saints running ??? We should alert the press . |
Don't take MY word for it...
Presumptive Garbage? You\'d recognize that wouldn\'t you. Sure you would, because that\'s all you post.
Now, if you think the Saints are running a true West Coast Offense you\'d better think again, because NO ONE in the NFL is running a true West Coast Offense. Saying that might further your agenda where Delhomme is concerned, but I\'m not buyin\' that Snake Oil 08. Try sellin\' it on a different street corner. Lose the agenda and post as fairly about OUR QB as you do for the one playing for Carolina and maybe I\'ll pay more attention to what you have to say. \'Til then you\'re barkin up the wrong tree. You\'ve been at this nonsense ever since the team signed Brooks. It pizzed you off and hurt your feelings. I understand that. When will you? |
Don't take MY word for it...
And again, if you think the offense the Saints run is a \"West Coast\" offense you\'re drinkin\' too much of your own Kool-Aid.
What offense are the Saints running ??? We should alert the press . Very good question. What offense do you believe the Saints are running Saintfan? This year\'s team has looked more like a West Coast team than ever - in my opinion. |
Don't take MY word for it...
It\'s been called a number of things Whodat...the \"Gulf Coast\" offense among other things.
08 trys to define the West Coast offense and then show how the Saints conform to it, but if you look back at the West Coast offense as it was cenceived this surely ain\'t it. Is it a variation? Well, in my opinion MOST teams are running a VARIATION, but one cannot say we are a \"West Coast\" offense cause we\'re not. Not in the purest form. We run what we run. Futhermore the issue isn\'t the offense we\'re running, it\'s 08\'s attempt to indicate that Brooks isn\'t the right guy for it...whatever you call it. You know as well as I do that he\'ll try and show Brooks is incapable or inadequit for WHATEVER this team does offensively. His agenda puts him squarely opposite of fairplay Whodat. I\'m quite surprised to see you coming to his rescue! |
Don't take MY word for it...
Well, in my opinion MOST teams are running a VARIATION, but one cannot say we are a \"West Coast\" offense cause we\'re not. Not in the purest form.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What variation are the Saints running ??? Define it ............... What was significant about the Falcons game , as opposed to 6 other games this season ?? |
Don't take MY word for it...
How would you know if I told you. Weren\'t you watching the Panthers game?
|
Don't take MY word for it...
OK 08, I\'ll bite. You\'re fun to screw with anyway. The less sense you make the more obvious you become and I know there are a least a few members on this board like me that probably get a pretty good kick out of watching you squirm.
Remember this is just my OPINION ok? The West Coast offense in it\'s purest form uses short timing-based patters with up to 5 receivers in the formation. In it\'s \"purest\" form is employs the short passing attack to replace the running game. Now, that\'s my definition ok? Do the Saints run a \"variation\" of that. Perhaps. There are LOTS of teams that run a variation of the original \"West Coast\" offense, but it\'s become a catch phrase and is accurate only if you are willing to grant some pretty generous edges to the definition. AND, since you don\'t wanna answer it on the other thread I started, I\'ll ask you here too. Which team will you be rooting for come Sunday? Or should I say which Player? |
Don't take MY word for it...
Saintsfan , do you need glasses like Billy ????
The question was : What was significant about the Falcons game , as opposed to 6 other games this season ?? Your reply : How would you know if I told you. Weren\'t you watching the Panthers game? Put down the crack pipe and back away from the keyboard , Saintsfan . Now on to : The West Coast offense in it\'s purest form uses short timing-based patters with up to 5 receivers in the formation. In it\'s \"purest\" form is employs the short passing attack to replace the running game. I hope you meant : In it\'s \" Purest \" form it employs a short passing attack to set up the running game . Now on to : OK 08, I\'ll bite. You\'re fun to screw with anyway. The less sense you make the more obvious you become and I know there are a least a few members on this board like me that probably get a pretty good kick out of watching you squirm. F.Y.I. : That squirming sensation is me trying to make sense out of what you post .... ;) |
Don't take MY word for it...
08 --
Let me clear something up for you about why the west coast offense was ever invented. It was invented because of a lack of a quality running back. They used the short passing game to compensate for the LACK of a running game. It also used possession type receivers. Does this sound anything like what the Saints are doing? The Saints use the run to set up the pass, which is not what the west coast offense does. Furthermore, we don\'t dink and dunk the ball down the field. If it makes you happy to say we run the west coast offense so you can further your agenda by saying Brooks is wrong for the system. Then, by all means -- Knock Yourself Out -- |
Don't take MY word for it...
I MEANT exactly what I typed 08. The West Coast Offense was designed exactly as I and Billy have stated. The short, timing-based passing routes were designed to circumvent the running game.
The West Coast offense most certainly does NOT NOT NOT use the short timing-base routes to \"set up the running game\". Brother, you\'re dead wrong...as usual. Your explanation would only be valid in a particular Star Trek episode called \"Mirror, Mirror\". Watch it and then you\'ll understand what I mean. You\'re a spin doctor with an agenda...old and tired my man...old and tired... |
Don't take MY word for it...
The term \"West Coast\" has really become meaningless. There are so many variations of the \"West Coast\" offense that you just can\'t clearly define what a \"West Coast\" offense is anymore.
Our offense really isn\'t much different than what the Dallas Cowboys ran when they had Aikman, Emmit, and Irvin. Our offense does not use the east/west passing game. Our passing game stretches the field north and south and clearly uses the running game more than the average \"West Coast\" offense. At least that\'s what I see when I watch the game on Sundays. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? [Edited on 24/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1] |
Don't take MY word for it...
Quote:
So he devised a game plan utilizing short routes to WR\'s in stride, a logical Left to Right, Right to Left progression of quick reads to keep his QB alive, and multiple swing routes by his RB\'s and FB\'s. This kept his QB alive because his OL didn\'t have to hold their blocks long, the smaller quicker RB\'s could succeed, and the FB became a weapon in the passing game, which they previously weren\'t. QB- Now could just have an average arm if he was smart. RB- The slightly smaller, athletic guy could now succeed in an era of power backs. WR- Didn\'t need the fastest guys anymore to exploit defenses. FB- Brought the athletic FB with good hand into the game. Took forever for defenses to adjust to. OL- No longer needed the Hogs to move the football. Didn\'t need to hold their blocks as long. TE- Now needed a LB or DB attention, which eased DL pressure. When someone says they run a WC style, it just means they utilize the short patterns and read-progressions that Walsh implemented, and some of the same plays that utilize the FB, RB, and TE in pass patterns. When we say we run a hybrid, it just means we still occasionally use the conventional power formations and the deep fly and crossing patterns that Walsh didn\'t run very often. |
Don't take MY word for it...
Tweeky --
That was a good explination. I agree with all of it but this one point you made: Quote:
|
Don't take MY word for it...
Either way you look at it, a variation of a thing is a thing unto itself. Saintz08 uses the \"West Coast\" argument because of his agenda. He thinks Jake Delhomme is a perfect fit for a true \"West Coast\" offense and thus he wants us to beleive that\'s what the Saints are running. If that were true his argument for going with Brooks as opposed to Jake would have some weight, but it doesn\'t because we don\'t run a true West Coast offense. We never have. We run a variation of it as do lots of NFL teams.
The fact remains it\'s not a true West Coast offense and it never was. NOBODY is running a true West Coast offense anymore. Now, you\'re welcome to try again 08, but do yourself a favor and remove the Jake Delhomme goggles and stop drinkin the Kool-Aid before you come in here and try and pull the wool over my eyes. I\'ve seen your current act, and it\'s old and tired. |
Don't take MY word for it...
Just to get back on 08\'s point that Brooks can\'t run the west coast offense -- I can\'t say that Brooks is ideal for the quick timing patterns or that he\'s great at reading defenses. I think he\'s better at it than some give him credit for, but I can\'t say these are his best traits.
I am really not worried about the west coast offense. I\'m not worried about Brooks\' stats. The only thing I\'m worried about as far as Brooks goes, is POINTS out of the passing game. Last year he threw 27-TD passes, using WHATEVER kind of offense we were running. This year he has improved on the things that a lot of members were complaing about. Which is completion percentage and making good decisions. He\'s not going to be perfect, as no QB is. So, keep using the arguement that he isn\'t the right QB for our system, if that makes you happy. I\'ll be happy everytime that score board increases by 7-points. [Edited on 24/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1] |
Don't take MY word for it...
Tap tap tap ......
School is in boys .... The best place to start dissecting Holmgren\'s offense is at the beginning. Just what is, or was, the West Coast offense? \"It\'s the ball-control passing game that sets up the running game,\" Jones said. \"But it has evolved. People talk about it being short passes, but it\'s much more than that. It has become high-percentage passes and also the opportunity to create big plays down field.\" Offers Holmgren: \"Often times a short pass will be substituted for another running play. It\'s easier. If you gain 6 yards on a run, what\'s Barry Sanders average per run? No one averages 6 yards a carry.\" Holmgren concedes he has stuck with the Walsh philosophy. But it is the variations on that original theme that have set Holmgren\'s system apart: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saintsfan Back of the room with the dunce cap for you for this little blurp : The West Coast offense most certainly does NOT NOT NOT use the short timing-base routes to \"set up the running game\". Brother, you\'re dead wrong...as usual. \"It\'s the ball-control passing game that sets up the running game .Think about it boys , Roger Craig was a 1000 yard back . Walsh designed the WCO. He had the luxury of the three ideal components that make the WCO work -- a running back (Roger Craig) that can carry the ball 20 times if needed and be successful, wide receivers (Jerry Rice and John Taylor) that could get immediate separation for pass plays designed to be thrown with a couple of second seconds and, most importantly, a quarterback (Joe Montana) able to read and recognize defenses immediately and locate the \"hot receiver.\" [Edited on 24/10/2003 by saintz08] |
Don't take MY word for it...
WEST COAST OFFENSE OVERVIEW
Short pass plays replace the running game to control the ball Bill Walsh originated with the San Francisco 49ers. Long process for QB to pick-up all the reads and adjustments. Release all five receivers into the pattern. QB has progression read up to five receivers. Take what the defensive gives you. Make the defense adjust to you. That is the West Coast offense as designed by Bill Walsh. \"Holmgren concedes he has stuck with the Walsh philosophy. But it is the variations on that original theme that have set Holmgren\'s system apart\" You typed that in your own damn post proving yourself wrong and aren\'t wise enough to see it...good lord...can you SEE the word VARIATION in your own damn post? Man are you drunk or what? FYI, I dropped beginner guitar my first year in college because I knew more than the instructor. Looks like I\'ll need to drop this class too. By the way, we\'re not dissecting HOLMGREN\'S offense, we\'re dissecting the WEST COAST OFFENSE AS INVENTED BY BILL WALSH for heaven\'s sake... You\'re doing what you always do 08, your bending and twisting and contorting in your best effort to manipulate the facts to fit your agenda. You don\'t have ANYONE fooled anymore 08. I realize it\'s hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but you need to give up already. Everytime you post this kinda BS your ignorance shows. Do yourself a favor and give up man. You look more and more foolish all the time! |
Don't take MY word for it...
08 --
What\'s your point? You are getting really hard to follow. I think your point is that the Saints set up the run by using a short passing game? Is that right? If your answer is yes then -- I disagree. Deuce is not just an average back. He is one of the best backs in the league and he is featured as such. What I\'ve seen is a STEADY dose of Deuce to set up the pass. Futhermore, I don\'t see all these short dink and dunk passes that are the hallmark of the West Coast offense. I see us stretching the field much more vertically than what the West Coast offense does. Maybe McCarthy had intentions of having a West Coast offense when he first came to the Saints, but I think he has adjusted the offense to the strengths of the personal the Saints currently have, like any good coordinator would do. I\'ll say this again. I don\'t care what offense you want to say we are running -- Aaron Brooks is performing well in it. You don\'t think so? |
Don't take MY word for it...
Tap tap tap
Saintsfan earns another timeout . Just don\'t call the system he has brought to the Seahawks the West Coast offense. Not in front of Holmgren, anyway. Sure, its roots are firmly planted in the pass-oriented offense Bill Walsh introduced to the NFL in the 1980s while he was head coach of the San Francisco 49ers. Sure, Holmgren was Walsh\'s quarterbacks coach for three seasons. Sure, Holmgren was then the team\'s offensive coordinator for three more seasons after Walsh gave way to George Seifert. Saintsfan You typed that in your own damn post proving yourself wrong and aren\'t wise enough to see it...good lord...can you SEE the word VARIATION in your own damn post? Man are you drunk or what? The variation is Holmgren offense in Seattle . Walsh designed the WCO. He had the luxury of the three ideal components that make the WCO work -- a running back (Roger Craig) that can carry the ball 20 times if needed and be successful, wide receivers (Jerry Rice and John Taylor) that could get immediate separation for pass plays designed to be thrown with a couple of second seconds and, most importantly, a quarterback (Joe Montana) able to read and recognize defenses immediately and locate the \"hot receiver.\" The original designed Walsh concept Saintsfan was for the pass to set up the run , as opposed to a traditional offense which uses the run to set up the pass . |
Don't take MY word for it...
Tap tap tap
Saintsfan earns another timeout . Just don\'t call the system he has brought to the Seahawks the West Coast offense. Not in front of Holmgren, anyway. Sure, its roots are firmly planted in the pass-oriented offense Bill Walsh introduced to the NFL in the 1980s while he was head coach of the San Francisco 49ers. Sure, Holmgren was Walsh\'s quarterbacks coach for three seasons. Sure, Holmgren was then the team\'s offensive coordinator for three more seasons after Walsh gave way to George Seifert. Saintsfan You typed that in your own damn post proving yourself wrong and aren\'t wise enough to see it...good lord...can you SEE the word VARIATION in your own damn post? Man are you drunk or what? The variation is Holmgren offense in Seattle . Walsh designed the WCO. He had the luxury of the three ideal components that make the WCO work -- a running back (Roger Craig) that can carry the ball 20 times if needed and be successful, wide receivers (Jerry Rice and John Taylor) that could get immediate separation for pass plays designed to be thrown with a couple of second seconds and, most importantly, a quarterback (Joe Montana) able to read and recognize defenses immediately and locate the \"hot receiver.\" The original designed Walsh concept Saintsfan was for the pass to set up the run , as opposed to a traditional offense which uses the run to set up the pass . |
Don't take MY word for it...
If someone understands what 08 is talking about can you PLEASE explain it to me??
Where\'s WhoDat when you need him? |
Don't take MY word for it...
Tap tap tap
Alright Saintsfan , I did not realize this had to be a \"Special education \" class for you . Before we examine these side effects further, we should define what exactly the West Coast Offense is. As outlined to some extent by Walsh in his book, Finding the Winning Edge, and further refined from observational analysis, we find the following elements in the basic WCO used by Walsh and his successors with the 49ers: Reliance on a quick, controlled passing game that takes advantage of quarterback and wide receiver reads on the fly Multiple plays from multiple formations, with the object being to find a mismatch between an offensive player and a defender A fairly equal mix of running and passing, although the pass seems to set up the run, which goes against the “conventional wisdom� of the NFL Now your post Saintsfan : The West Coast offense most certainly does NOT NOT NOT use the short timing-base routes to \"set up the running game\". Brother, you\'re dead wrong...as usual. Bill Walsh States : A fairly equal mix of running and passing, although the pass seems to set up the run, which goes against the “conventional wisdom� of the NFL Sit back little boy and put your dunce cap on ......... :P |
Don't take MY word for it...
For saintfan:
\"It\'s the ball-control passing game that sets up the running game,\" Jones said. That Jones fella is Brent Jones, Pro-Bowl Tight End of the 49ers under Walsh. He is NOT talking about Holmgren\'s offense, but the original - strike that - the 49ers version of the West Coast offense. But although he has played in that system for years doesn\'t mean he isn\'t wrong. ;) For everyone else I completely agree the WCO uses the short pass (in part) to replace the running game. The short passing game DOES NOT set up the running game. Note: That\'s the original WCO from Cincinnati where Walsh didn\'t have a good rusher on his team. Roger Craig joined the 49ers in 1983 (Walsh had been head coach for 3 or 4 years already and the 49ers were already running the WCO). He simply was an added weapon which Walsh liked to use as a rusher as well. Walsh never used the WCO to set up the long pass, that\'s evolved later. Very different styles of offenses are now called WCOs. Some just use it to describe a team that relies heavily on the pass (who in his right mind would describe the Rams with Warner and Faulk as a WCO?). The term has become quite meaningless on the pro-level. If it means anything it all it describes an offense that often uses quick passes without having a great running attack. The term is mostly used because it is so convenient. |
Don't take MY word for it...
Pardon my ignorance, if the West coast offense was created because of a lack of a quality running back does that mean Roger Craig and Tom Rathman were less than quality?
|
Don't take MY word for it...
Now that we have established what the west coast offene is !! Who thinks we run a true west coast offense? I DON\'T. And I suspect 08 is the only one who does...
|
Don't take MY word for it...
Perhaps 08 (AKA Old School) needs to GO BACK to school:
Variation: A Definition of the Word from the Webster\'s New World Dictionary... 1. a varying; change in form, extent, etc 2. the degree of such change 3. a thing SOMEWHAT different from another of the same kind What part of the word \"Variation\" do you people not understand? [Edited on 24/10/2003 by saintfan] |
Don't take MY word for it...
Quote:
But the WCO can still be run effectively without a stud RB. A conventional offense typically can\'t. The fiicking 49\'ers had the best of both stinking worlds. A great offense with great players. I HATE THE FIICKING 49\'ERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Don\'t ever mention them again. [Edited on 24/10/2003 by tweeky] |
Don't take MY word for it...
Noncloning
Note: That\'s the original WCO from Cincinnati where Walsh didn\'t have a good rusher on his team. It was runningback by committee: Rushing Rush Yds Avg TD Jess Phillips 163 648 4.0 4 Paul Robinson 149 622 4.2 6 Essex Johnson 65 273 4.2 2 Virgil Carter 34 246 7.2 2 They still put up over 1700 yards on the ground. While it may be true , Walsh did not have a good rusher on the Bengals at the time , the reason he set up the now west coast offense is because : Walsh\'s concept came about in 1970, when he was offensive coach with the Bengals. The year before he had had one of the great rookie quarterbacks in NFL history, Greg Cook, a big, strongarmed kid who could also throw with touch. In 1969 Cook averaged 18 yards per completion, a mark that never has been approached since. The attack was long-ball, obviously. Even the tight ends got downfield. Bob Trumpy, Cook\'s No. 1 target, averaged 22.6 yards a catch, an unheard-of number for tight ends. Trumpy\'s backup, Chip Myers --Walsh often used two tight ends at once -- averaged 20.6. Even rookie Bruce Coslet, the third man in the rotation, got into the act, recording 39 yards on his one catch. Then Cook went down with a shoulder injury. His career was finished. In came Virgil Carter in 1970 -- smaller, agile, quick-thinking. Carter was able to go through his progressions quickly and throw on the go; not blessed with a big arm, but accurate. So Walsh crafted an offense to suit him, a horizontal offense with a lot of motion and underneath routes and breakoff patterns, an attack that now goes by the misnomer \"West Coast Offense.\" [Edited on 24/10/2003 by saintz08] |
Don't take MY word for it...
Using the \"KISS\" method here for the benefit of Saintz08...
08 -- The Saints DO NOT run the \"Bill Walsh\" West Coast Offense. 08 -- The Saints run a variation of the West Coast Offense much like several other NFL teams Now, we can debate all day long about what a true West Coast Offense really is, but what\'s the point anyway? Lets get right down to what it is you\'re trying to say? What\'s your point? |
Don't take MY word for it...
I think what we have here is one member trying to get under the skin of 2 other members, and its working like Walshes WCO did back in the 80\'s.
But I could be wrong, again. |
Don't take MY word for it...
Quote:
|
Don't take MY word for it...
Alright Saintsfan
Have we eliminated your ignorance in making this statement :The West Coast offense most certainly does NOT NOT NOT use the short timing-base routes to \"set up the running game\". Brother, you\'re dead wrong...as usual. With the following from Bill Walsh ? Before we examine these side effects further, we should define what exactly the West Coast Offense is. As outlined to some extent by Walsh in his book, Finding the Winning Edge, and further refined from observational analysis, we find the following elements in the basic WCO used by Walsh and his successors with the 49ers: A fairly equal mix of running and passing, although the pass seems to set up the run, which goes against the “conventional wisdom� of the NFL \"It\'s the ball-control passing game that sets up the running game,\" Brent Jones said tight end for the 49ers. I think I have eliminated all the big words right down to the point for you ......... ;) [Edited on 25/10/2003 by saintz08] |
Don't take MY word for it...
Indeed the West Coast offense can use the short pass to set up the run. I\'ve researched it on the web and found the same information you pasted here...word for word. I\'ve also found information that supports what I\'ve said...however, I\'ll will concede that to you 08. I do maintain however that, in it\'s ORIGINAL design, the West Coast offense was designed to make up for the lack of a running game by using the short pass...as a REPLACEMENT for it.
Once again, as I\'ve stated in an earlier post, we could argue what consists of a PURE West Coast offense \'til the dry cows come home and never reach an agreement. Again, I ask you, what does this have to do with anything? What, exactly, is the point you\'re trying to make? And do you really beleive the Saints are running a pure West Coast Offense? If you think as much, then type it here and lets put it up for all the members on this board to debate. I\'ll bet you your Delhomme Jersey that most if not ALL the members of this board (and anyone else you decide to ask) will inform you as I have...that the Saints DO NOT run the West Coast offense in it\'s purest form. IT IS A V-A-R-I-A-T-I-O-N!!!! |
Don't take MY word for it...
Saintsfan
I do maintain however that, in it\'s ORIGINAL design, the West Coast offense was designed to make up for the lack of a running game by using the short pass...as a REPLACEMENT for it. You can maintain all you want , but the West Coast offense was never designed for the lack of a running game . It was created for Vigil Carter . Then Cook went down with a shoulder injury. His career was finished. In came Virgil Carter in 1970 -- smaller, agile, quick-thinking. Carter was able to go through his progressions quickly and throw on the go; not blessed with a big arm, but accurate. So Walsh crafted an offense to suit him, a horizontal offense with a lot of motion and underneath routes and breakoff patterns, an attack that now goes by the misnomer \"West Coast Offense.\" |
Don't take MY word for it...
If I can jump in here (though I haven\'t been on this board very long), all this argument about whether the Saints run a WCO or not is pointless. 08: If McCarthy and Haslett think Brooks isn\'t the right QB for their offense (whatever they call it), they should modify the offense to suit his talents. If you think Brooks isn\'t performing well in the Saints\' offense, blame the coaches for faling to adjust the offense to fit the players they have. After all, they\'ve had several years to do so. If you think Delhomme is more talented than Brooks, I\'d like to know specifically why. OK, so we all agree he\'s a better team leader, but AB has so much better passing and scrambling skills that overall it seems clear he\'s a better choice, especially when you have receivers that can break the game open on any given play. With Horn & Co. out there, you have to want to get the ball downfield.
The genius of Walsh\'s systems was that they always made the most of the talents of each of the players involved. The smart thing to do is get the most talented players you can get, then build a system that emphasizes their talents while hiding their weaknesses. Look at what Parcells has done in Dallas so far this year without much talent (though I think they will lose this weekend as their weaknesses will be too hard to hide against the reigning champs). |
Don't take MY word for it...
Yes, rich006 it is very clear...clear to us all...all except for \"Mr. Agenda\" Saintz08. I agree the \"West Coast\" argument is pointless, but then so is debating 08 when it comes to Jake Delhomme. You couldn\'t pull his head outta Jakes azz with a tractor trailer.
|
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:22 AM. |
Copyright 1997 - 2020 - BlackandGold.com