Don't take MY word for it...

saintfan · 10-21-2003, 04:23 PM

A warning to ANYone drinkin the "08" Kool-Aid. What you are about to read are quotes from an article writte by Dan Pompei...writer for the Sporting News. You've heard it all before, particularly from ME and BILLYC, but here it is again, only now you don't have to take MY word for it...

"The only way they could make big plays is if we missed tackles and blew coverages," Titans safety Lance Schulters said afterward. "Their quarterback stares down their receivers and gets them blown up." -- Schulters on Jake Delhomme

"Their strength is their ability to run the football and play-action pass," Titans coach Jeff Fisher says. "If you can get them out of that in a dropback situation, then you have a chance to match up, and that's what we wanted to do."

You can trust Delhomme to water the plants, walk the dog and take out the trash. A caretaker is what he is, capable of performing simple tasks. The Panthers don't expect him to be a precision craftsman. In fact, they might not know what to do with him if he were. "We could have John Elway here, and we'd be the same way we are now," Fox says.

"The only thing you worry about against them is not getting outmanned," Falcons cornerback Ray Buchanan says. "You know they're not going to be passing like crazy. It is a little bit easier to game-plan them."

There are no illusions in the Carolina offense. Muhammad says his team has gone into a game with as few as three or four running plays and four or five passing plays, though the Panthers use them out of many different formations. It's the simplest offense Muhammad has been in since high school. "We don't do a whole lot, but we do it with precision," he says.

The Panthers probably run more single-receiver formations than any team in football. Even when they intend to pass, the Panthers use mostly two- and three-man routes, choosing to devote extra men to protecting Delhomme. "They make it so you can't get to him, because he'll make bad decisions with the ball," one NFC head coach says. "If you can get a 14-point lead, you have a chance because they'll have to throw it up."

"He's not the best quarterback I've ever seen," Buchanan says. "If you put him in passing situations, I think you can see a lot of signs of weaknesses. But if they're running the ball that well, Delhomme can look like he's one of the better quarterbacks because he doesn't have to do anything. It almost reminds me of Trent Dilfer when he was with Baltimore."

Below is a link to the entire article. Some of you will love it, and others won't. Suffice it to say it's nothing new...nothing those of us with open eyes didn't already know!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slu...=tsn&type=lgns

[Edited on 21/10/2003 by saintfan]

tweeky · 10-21-2003, 04:55 PM

I think there are some valid points in that article as to why Delhomme isn\'t the answer here at QB (over Brooks). But I, and many others will point to his positives when arguing if he should have replaced an obviously injured Brooks last year.
True, he won\'t win many shootouts but his conservative style of play may have won a game or two down the stretch last year. He would run a true West coast Offense pretty well.
Unfortunately too many people use last years slide to over-hype Delhomme\'s ability.
After all, the most popular player on a losing team is the back-up QB. And if he\'s a beloved local boy, hatred for the starter is inevitable.

Yes, Jake could run this team fairly well considering the weapons we have on offense, but a comparison to Brooks\' talent is pretty weak.

I think the Jake lovers will slowly fade out over time.

WhoDat · 10-21-2003, 05:48 PM

Hey man, this is nothing new. I\'ve said this in the past. I\'ve compared Delhomme to Dilfer. He is Dilfer - he\'s a good game manager. Say what you will, but the Ravens won a Super Bowl with Dilfer. Tampa went to the Bowl with Johnson (same idea - manage the game and don\'t make mistakes).

My argument has never been that Delhomme is more talented. I\'m not sure anyone\'s has been. My argument is twofold - 1) QBs like Delhomme have had more success than QBs like McNabb and Vick since... well, forever, and 2) Our system is built for a drop back pocket passer who can make quick reads, get the ball out, and limit the mistakes. Brooks is becoming that kind of a guy, and I think he is showing more and more that he can be successful in this type of system - but that\'s not his natural style of play and you all know it.

saintfan · 10-21-2003, 05:54 PM

This was meant more for Saintz08 than anyone Whodat. But I think what it really shows it that at this particular time Jake is neither Dilfer nor is he Brooks. He very raw and inexperienced. He threw a five yard slant on the mark against Tampa Bay last year and 08 thinks he\'s God. I\'m only trying to show that Jake Delhomme isn\'t the end all for QB\'s the way 08 has attempted to indicate he was. Now the league has something to measure Jake by and his grade is avearge...at best!

WhoDat · 10-21-2003, 05:57 PM

Maybe, but I see potential in the guy, same as I did when some no-name that looked like gumby came sauntering into the game in Week 10 of the 2000 season. They have different styles and different skillsets, but to think Jake doesn\'t have a shot b/c he isn\'t playing great right now, well... that\'s kind of myopic for a guy who has been preaching patience.

[Edited on 21/10/2003 by WhoDat]

saintfan · 10-21-2003, 06:03 PM

I didn\'t say that Whodat. I\'ve always said I like Jake and I still do, but posts like Gatorman\'s are what get me. Jake has had very very little to do with their record. The number of carries for Stephen Davis tells the story.

Don\'t take my word for it Gator...that\'s what this thread is all about.

[Edited on 21/10/2003 by saintfan]

WhoDat · 10-21-2003, 06:08 PM

OK. Point taken. Stephen Davis is the engine that drives the Panthers. No question. One might say the same about Deuce. Sure, he\'s not doing it to the extent that Davis is, and yes Brooks is much more a part of the offense than Delhomme. Again, part of that has to be chalked up to Fox\'s scheme. He wants to win with running and defense.

\"We could have John Elway here, and we\'d be the same way we are now,\" Fox says.

Delhomme isn\'t in a wide open offense where he\'s encouraged to make reads, use his arm, etc. And despite what Billy may think, Smith and Muhammed are NOT Horn, Stallworth, Pathon, and Conwell... oh and Deuce out of the backfield.

I won\'t try to tell you that Delhomme is as good a QB right now as Brooks. However, Delhomme is doing what is asked of him, and he\'s doing it really well. The team\'s record shows that. Brooks on the other hand, has been asked to be a significant part of the Saints offense this season. I will be the first to admit that Brooks\' play has been surprisingly good this season, but one has to wonder when we have a losing record... wouldn\'t you agree?

BillyCarpenter1 · 10-21-2003, 07:42 PM

5-1

Jake is the QB

Thats all I need to know.

Dilfer- average QB, but he wears a superbowl ring.

Do you two hate Jake or is it this is what you must do to get at the members here that still support him and beliieve he could have been better than Brooks in the last 3 games?

Gator -- I don\'t hate Jake Delhomme. What I don\'t like are the memebers in here that go around blaming Aaron Brooks for every problem the Saints have. Then some of those same memebers go around talking about Jake Delhomme like he\'s GOD.

Right now you are attempting to credit Jake Delhomme for the Panthers 5-1 record by saying: \"5-1 -- Jake is the QB -- Thats all I need to know.\" Well, I agree, that is all you need to know if you don\'t want to see the truth. Which you obviously don\'t. I\'ve said it before and I\'ll say it again -- Jake has done NOTHING in this league to warrant all the praise he has received by some members on here.

Since I have been a member on here, I have spent most of my time defending Aaron Brooks. You can say I am a Brooks\' supporter. I freely admit that. I\'ve never claimed he is perfect or doesn\'t need to improve. What I have been trying to tell you guy is that most to the critcism is UNJUST.

Now that Delhomme is a starter and myself and saintfan point out some flaws with ole\' Jake ( and not nearly to the degree that Brooks has been placed under the microscope) some of the Brooks bashers and Jake supporters don\'t like it. Mainly because they can\'t justify the criticism they have placed on Brooks and not say the samething about Delhomme.

All of you guys that are defending Delhomme -- Where were you at when post after post, article after article, was being written about \"Brooks Sucks\" ?? I learned a long time ago that QB\'s take time to develop and that just because they are making a tremendous amount of money, that it does not speed up the maturation process. But yet all I hear on here is \" You are making top 5 money -- I demand top 5 play. This is FOOLISH.

Some of you right now are waiting on Brooks to have a bad game so you can say \" See, I told you so.\" But that\'s OK -- I\'ll be right here telling you the samethings I\'ve been telling ya !~!

[Edited on 22/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

WhoDat · 10-21-2003, 10:03 PM

Well Billy, I don\'t know if I totally agree with that.

Here\'s the thing. Carolina does not expect Jake Delhomme to be a top five quarterback. They ask him to be a game manager. They ask him to throw when he has to, mostly in order to keep the D honest enough to allow Davis some running room. They pay him accordingly and they most get what they expect. Limited performance and limited mistakes.

On the other hand, Haslett and Co. have been promising that Aaron Brooks will be a star in this league for three years now. The expectation is that he will play like one of the tops in the league at his position. He is getting paid to do so and we as fans are expecting to see that.

What we have gotten throughout most of the man\'s career is inconsistency. The ability to play like a star one week and a bum the next. In fact, games like AB had last week can serve to further exagerate the problem, b/c we see what he is capable of. Next week, if he doesn\'t deliver - if he has a 150 yard 3 INT day - then it makes us more mad b/c we know how he can play and we know what we\'re paying for... and we know when we\'re getting screwed.

Say what you will about Jake\'s ability. Say what you will about his role in Carolina\'s offense. Bottom line is, the man is doing exactly what is asked of him and that has helped his team to a 5-1 record.

I\'m not saying that I would rather have Delhomme than Brooks. I am not saying that Delhomme is better than Brooks. What I am saying is that Delhomme may be the lowest paid starting QB in the league and he is certainly not the worst in the league right now. Brooks is one of the highest paid in the league, and can you tell me that so far this year he has been playing like one of the best QBs in the league? I will admit he is getting much better. More consistent, smarter plays, less mistakes, he\'s molding himself to better fit our system... but he\'s still not there yet. I can understand the people who think that he\'ll never be the leader or have the ability to make the right reads he needs to make it in the NFL, or in our system. I\'ll say that his play is starting to change my mind about that, but he ain\'t there yet. Carolina is getting everything they expect and pay for out of Jake.

BillyCarpenter1 · 10-21-2003, 10:11 PM

WhoDat --

Some QB\'s develop faster for different reasons. Maybe some QB\'s were in a college system that better prepared them for the NFL. Maybe some QB\'s had a dad that played in the NFL and that gave them an advantage. Point is that Brooks is a young QB that has been no more inconsistant than some great QB\'s of all time. I\'ve showed you before the stats of other QB\'s like Aikman, Elway, etc, etc.. MOST of the criticism on Brooks has been unjust and if you are honest you will admit that.

I have to admit that debating Aaron Brooks is fun. More so with some members than others, but I really wonder if some memebers believe what they are writing on here or if they just like to prove a point because they don\'t like the guy...

10-21-2003, 04:23 PM	#1
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Don't take MY word for it... A warning to ANYone drinkin the "08" Kool-Aid. What you are about to read are quotes from an article writte by Dan Pompei...writer for the Sporting News. You've heard it all before, particularly from ME and BILLYC, but here it is again, only now you don't have to take MY word for it... "The only way they could make big plays is if we missed tackles and blew coverages," Titans safety Lance Schulters said afterward. "Their quarterback stares down their receivers and gets them blown up." -- Schulters on Jake Delhomme "Their strength is their ability to run the football and play-action pass," Titans coach Jeff Fisher says. "If you can get them out of that in a dropback situation, then you have a chance to match up, and that's what we wanted to do." You can trust Delhomme to water the plants, walk the dog and take out the trash. A caretaker is what he is, capable of performing simple tasks. The Panthers don't expect him to be a precision craftsman. In fact, they might not know what to do with him if he were. "We could have John Elway here, and we'd be the same way we are now," Fox says. "The only thing you worry about against them is not getting outmanned," Falcons cornerback Ray Buchanan says. "You know they're not going to be passing like crazy. It is a little bit easier to game-plan them." There are no illusions in the Carolina offense. Muhammad says his team has gone into a game with as few as three or four running plays and four or five passing plays, though the Panthers use them out of many different formations. It's the simplest offense Muhammad has been in since high school. "We don't do a whole lot, but we do it with precision," he says. The Panthers probably run more single-receiver formations than any team in football. Even when they intend to pass, the Panthers use mostly two- and three-man routes, choosing to devote extra men to protecting Delhomme. "They make it so you can't get to him, because he'll make bad decisions with the ball," one NFC head coach says. "If you can get a 14-point lead, you have a chance because they'll have to throw it up." "He's not the best quarterback I've ever seen," Buchanan says. "If you put him in passing situations, I think you can see a lot of signs of weaknesses. But if they're running the ball that well, Delhomme can look like he's one of the better quarterbacks because he doesn't have to do anything. It almost reminds me of Trent Dilfer when he was with Baltimore." Below is a link to the entire article. Some of you will love it, and others won't. Suffice it to say it's nothing new...nothing those of us with open eyes didn't already know! http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slu...=tsn&type=lgns [Edited on 21/10/2003 by saintfan]

10-21-2003, 04:55 PM	#2
tweeky 500th Post Join Date: May 2003 Location: South Alabama Posts: 779	Don't take MY word for it... I think there are some valid points in that article as to why Delhomme isn\'t the answer here at QB (over Brooks). But I, and many others will point to his positives when arguing if he should have replaced an obviously injured Brooks last year. True, he won\'t win many shootouts but his conservative style of play may have won a game or two down the stretch last year. He would run a true West coast Offense pretty well. Unfortunately too many people use last years slide to over-hype Delhomme\'s ability. After all, the most popular player on a losing team is the back-up QB. And if he\'s a beloved local boy, hatred for the starter is inevitable. Yes, Jake could run this team fairly well considering the weapons we have on offense, but a comparison to Brooks\' talent is pretty weak. I think the Jake lovers will slowly fade out over time.
	Whether we agree or disagree; its all for Him.

10-21-2003, 05:48 PM	#3
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Don't take MY word for it... Hey man, this is nothing new. I\'ve said this in the past. I\'ve compared Delhomme to Dilfer. He is Dilfer - he\'s a good game manager. Say what you will, but the Ravens won a Super Bowl with Dilfer. Tampa went to the Bowl with Johnson (same idea - manage the game and don\'t make mistakes). My argument has never been that Delhomme is more talented. I\'m not sure anyone\'s has been. My argument is twofold - 1) QBs like Delhomme have had more success than QBs like McNabb and Vick since... well, forever, and 2) Our system is built for a drop back pocket passer who can make quick reads, get the ball out, and limit the mistakes. Brooks is becoming that kind of a guy, and I think he is showing more and more that he can be successful in this type of system - but that\'s not his natural style of play and you all know it.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

10-21-2003, 05:54 PM	#4
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Don't take MY word for it... This was meant more for Saintz08 than anyone Whodat. But I think what it really shows it that at this particular time Jake is neither Dilfer nor is he Brooks. He very raw and inexperienced. He threw a five yard slant on the mark against Tampa Bay last year and 08 thinks he\'s God. I\'m only trying to show that Jake Delhomme isn\'t the end all for QB\'s the way 08 has attempted to indicate he was. Now the league has something to measure Jake by and his grade is avearge...at best!

10-21-2003, 05:57 PM	#5
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Don't take MY word for it... Maybe, but I see potential in the guy, same as I did when some no-name that looked like gumby came sauntering into the game in Week 10 of the 2000 season. They have different styles and different skillsets, but to think Jake doesn\'t have a shot b/c he isn\'t playing great right now, well... that\'s kind of myopic for a guy who has been preaching patience. [Edited on 21/10/2003 by WhoDat]
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

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10-21-2003, 06:03 PM	#6
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Don't take MY word for it... I didn\'t say that Whodat. I\'ve always said I like Jake and I still do, but posts like Gatorman\'s are what get me. Jake has had very very little to do with their record. The number of carries for Stephen Davis tells the story. Don\'t take my word for it Gator...that\'s what this thread is all about. [Edited on 21/10/2003 by saintfan]

10-21-2003, 06:08 PM	#7
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Don't take MY word for it... OK. Point taken. Stephen Davis is the engine that drives the Panthers. No question. One might say the same about Deuce. Sure, he\'s not doing it to the extent that Davis is, and yes Brooks is much more a part of the offense than Delhomme. Again, part of that has to be chalked up to Fox\'s scheme. He wants to win with running and defense. \"We could have John Elway here, and we\'d be the same way we are now,\" Fox says. Delhomme isn\'t in a wide open offense where he\'s encouraged to make reads, use his arm, etc. And despite what Billy may think, Smith and Muhammed are NOT Horn, Stallworth, Pathon, and Conwell... oh and Deuce out of the backfield. I won\'t try to tell you that Delhomme is as good a QB right now as Brooks. However, Delhomme is doing what is asked of him, and he\'s doing it really well. The team\'s record shows that. Brooks on the other hand, has been asked to be a significant part of the Saints offense this season. I will be the first to admit that Brooks\' play has been surprisingly good this season, but one has to wonder when we have a losing record... wouldn\'t you agree?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

10-21-2003, 07:42 PM	#8
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Don't take MY word for it... 5-1 Jake is the QB Thats all I need to know. Dilfer- average QB, but he wears a superbowl ring. Do you two hate Jake or is it this is what you must do to get at the members here that still support him and beliieve he could have been better than Brooks in the last 3 games? Gator -- I don\'t hate Jake Delhomme. What I don\'t like are the memebers in here that go around blaming Aaron Brooks for every problem the Saints have. Then some of those same memebers go around talking about Jake Delhomme like he\'s GOD. Right now you are attempting to credit Jake Delhomme for the Panthers 5-1 record by saying: \"5-1 -- Jake is the QB -- Thats all I need to know.\" Well, I agree, that is all you need to know if you don\'t want to see the truth. Which you obviously don\'t. I\'ve said it before and I\'ll say it again -- Jake has done NOTHING in this league to warrant all the praise he has received by some members on here. Since I have been a member on here, I have spent most of my time defending Aaron Brooks. You can say I am a Brooks\' supporter. I freely admit that. I\'ve never claimed he is perfect or doesn\'t need to improve. What I have been trying to tell you guy is that most to the critcism is UNJUST. Now that Delhomme is a starter and myself and saintfan point out some flaws with ole\' Jake ( and not nearly to the degree that Brooks has been placed under the microscope) some of the Brooks bashers and Jake supporters don\'t like it. Mainly because they can\'t justify the criticism they have placed on Brooks and not say the samething about Delhomme. All of you guys that are defending Delhomme -- Where were you at when post after post, article after article, was being written about \"Brooks Sucks\" ?? I learned a long time ago that QB\'s take time to develop and that just because they are making a tremendous amount of money, that it does not speed up the maturation process. But yet all I hear on here is \" You are making top 5 money -- I demand top 5 play. This is FOOLISH. Some of you right now are waiting on Brooks to have a bad game so you can say \" See, I told you so.\" But that\'s OK -- I\'ll be right here telling you the samethings I\'ve been telling ya !~! [Edited on 22/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

10-21-2003, 10:03 PM	#9
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Don't take MY word for it... Well Billy, I don\'t know if I totally agree with that. Here\'s the thing. Carolina does not expect Jake Delhomme to be a top five quarterback. They ask him to be a game manager. They ask him to throw when he has to, mostly in order to keep the D honest enough to allow Davis some running room. They pay him accordingly and they most get what they expect. Limited performance and limited mistakes. On the other hand, Haslett and Co. have been promising that Aaron Brooks will be a star in this league for three years now. The expectation is that he will play like one of the tops in the league at his position. He is getting paid to do so and we as fans are expecting to see that. What we have gotten throughout most of the man\'s career is inconsistency. The ability to play like a star one week and a bum the next. In fact, games like AB had last week can serve to further exagerate the problem, b/c we see what he is capable of. Next week, if he doesn\'t deliver - if he has a 150 yard 3 INT day - then it makes us more mad b/c we know how he can play and we know what we\'re paying for... and we know when we\'re getting screwed. Say what you will about Jake\'s ability. Say what you will about his role in Carolina\'s offense. Bottom line is, the man is doing exactly what is asked of him and that has helped his team to a 5-1 record. I\'m not saying that I would rather have Delhomme than Brooks. I am not saying that Delhomme is better than Brooks. What I am saying is that Delhomme may be the lowest paid starting QB in the league and he is certainly not the worst in the league right now. Brooks is one of the highest paid in the league, and can you tell me that so far this year he has been playing like one of the best QBs in the league? I will admit he is getting much better. More consistent, smarter plays, less mistakes, he\'s molding himself to better fit our system... but he\'s still not there yet. I can understand the people who think that he\'ll never be the leader or have the ability to make the right reads he needs to make it in the NFL, or in our system. I\'ll say that his play is starting to change my mind about that, but he ain\'t there yet. Carolina is getting everything they expect and pay for out of Jake.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

10-21-2003, 10:11 PM	#10
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Don't take MY word for it... WhoDat -- Some QB\'s develop faster for different reasons. Maybe some QB\'s were in a college system that better prepared them for the NFL. Maybe some QB\'s had a dad that played in the NFL and that gave them an advantage. Point is that Brooks is a young QB that has been no more inconsistant than some great QB\'s of all time. I\'ve showed you before the stats of other QB\'s like Aikman, Elway, etc, etc.. MOST of the criticism on Brooks has been unjust and if you are honest you will admit that. I have to admit that debating Aaron Brooks is fun. More so with some members than others, but I really wonder if some memebers believe what they are writing on here or if they just like to prove a point because they don\'t like the guy...
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209