For the Bag Head Supporters
 

Joe -- I probably should respond to your accusations but in fear that it will set off a \"board war\" I will not comment ........


Gator -- Keep posting. At some point everyone will stop paying so much attention to my comments and jump on you... :D

WhoDat -- Will I be gettting a bill in the mail for the legal and therapy sessions?? :P

[Edited on 23/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

I sent it yesterday.

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

Absolutely, although I could have worded my original statement better. I think the word \"quit\" is rather broad generalization. Technically, for a player to quit in all intents of the word, he would go sit and remain on the sidelines for the remainder of the game. I think that some people associate the term \"quit\" with \"apathy\". I think that you can put players in a situation where they grow apathetic towards the outcome of a game because of what is going on around them, whatever the case may be. Could be that little voice inside their heads making references as to how their teammates look as if they have \"quit\", so why the hell are you still trying. This was just an example. It doesn\'t mean that they don\'t want to win, but it is human nature to be complacent.

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

While it seems this thread is a project comprised of only four members, I can\'t resist adding my outside perspective.

Over the past year? that Billy has been a member I have noticed changes in his personality, or whatever personality you can gain from reading typed material. When he first entered this board, he flat out berated opinions and seemed to thrive on \"smacking\" with other members. He gets warned for this...he tones it down. He resorts to posting only football related material and expressing his opinion. His opinion gets called out, and he attempts to defend his opinion with stats, web links, quotes, etc. He enters into debates with members that defend the extreme of Billy\'s opinion. At times it resorts back to some smack. Again, he\'s asked to tone his passion and he does.

In my personal experiences debating with Billy, he has been very civil and although disagreeing with my position at times, uses only evidence to support his, and he did it without name calling or telling me I\'m wrong. It might be a single perception, but I have only noticed him get his feathers ruffled when someone lights the fire. By this I mean when someone adds a derogatory remark, states his oponion is wrong by use of a creative analogy, or flat out fails to defend a very extreme statement. I\'m sure many members can attest that they have had normal conversations with Billy. I can clearly see that yes, Billy does act crass intentionally with certain members. And quite often, yes, it is another member that does just what you claim Billy does....stating his opinion is wrong and making a insulting comment along with it. Because Billy\'s post volume is what it is, he of course will cite many more examples than other members, but few can claim to be innocent of this practice.

Finally my point. Those that Billy responds to in that manner have earned that treatment at some point because they have either initiated it or practiced it on him. I\'m not trying to state or even believe that he is some self-imposed defender of this board, but in reading posts on this board for as long as I have, it is not clear to me that he is doing anything other than he claims to be. Treating others like they treat him.

I guess it comes down to who wants to be the bigger person and start the ball rolling by ignoring insulting remarks and staying away from confrontations and sidestep to a new thread. It will then become clear who uses these practices, because right now Billy can get into it with anyone and the limelight goes to him and shadows the 5 or 6 others that do the same thing, but without so much notice.

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

I agree with you Lumm. However, I will stand by what I said and stay out of it as long as I am allowed that choice. No one, including me is perfect. We all make mistakes. I can live with that. I hope others can too. Fans being what they are, we\'ll never agree on anything to any degree. I guess it\'s kinda like he said she said. It always takes two.

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

Geeez.....

First of all, thanks LummOx.

Sencond -- I guess I respect some members more than others ( tweeky, WhoDat, B&B, clone, smitty, saintfan, rusta, LummOx, and even 08 and I know I\'m leaving some out-sorry) but mainly because no matter what they say, they can support their opinions with something that makes sense. They also don\'t go to extremes very often. (except 08) I disagree with these guys all the time and, like I said, they support their opinions with something logical. It\'s easy to debate these guys because I can follow their thought process.

Now, we\'ve got some folks who make \"extreme statements\" that make no sense to ME and I call them on it. Most of the time they come back with something that makes LESS sense than the original statement they made. So they get frustrated because they can\'t come up with ANYTHING to support their arguement with other than telling me I\'m blind because I don\'t agree. I probably should let it drop, but sometimes these debates take on a life of their own. I think if anyone is going to make \"extreme statements\" they should be prepared to back it up with SOMETHING. But, again I should let some of these drop way before I do.....

Last thing -- I\'m passionate about football and especially about the SAINTS. It\'s more to me than just a \"game\". I do get my feathers ruffled by folks who constantly bash this team. I don\'t care too much for these folks and while everyone has the right to say what you want, I feel like I have the right to say what I think about the bashing you do to a team that I love.

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

Gator --

You know we have gone to war together and against one another. I always enjoy reading your posts. I know we probably both get pissed at times but I have no doubt that we both take it for what it is. You have that \"special\" little way of getting your point across and that\'s fine with me. I do the samething. Now, we are different in a lot of ways but I don\'t think either one of us get\'s our feelings hurt in this little \"board wars.\"

What I\'m saying is I respect your opinions and I just forgot to include you on my list. MY BAD -- But I still don\'t like ya -- :P J/K

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

hello all im a new here. great site. whats with this gator guy. doesnt he know the gators suck. go tigers! really this guy needs serious help. :)

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

Gator --

First of all -- I don\'t have to be right or don\'t even need to be right. What I do is state my beliefs and question others on there beliefs. I tell people they are wrong when I think they are wrong. People tell me I\'m wrong. That\'s great. I\'ll do my best to back up why I think I\'m not wrong.

As far as me not admitting I\'m wrong. You need to do your homework before you go making that statement. I have admitted I was wrong several times, which is more than I can say for some folks.

Look Gator -- My belief that the bags heads are not good fans is my belief and I\'m not alone in believing that. Just because this upsets you or you don\'t agree with it does not make you right. It might upset you that I have the nerve to make such a statement, but it doesn\'t make you right. Now, you can feel just the opposite and we can disagree. This is one of these things that neither one of us can prove we are right or wrong, becuase it\'s just a personal belief on both of our parts.

And Gator -- Did you just say I was \"flat out wrong\" for expressing my opinion that Bag Heads are classless. Did you not tell me yesterday that no one\'s opinon can be wrong. You need to practice what ya preach my man !!

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

Gator -- I understand and I\'m fully prepared to be called out on this issue. The only thing I\'m insulting is the way they act as FANS not as individuals. I think when someone puts on a \"Bag of Shame\" they are INSULTING the Saints players and they better damn well be prepared to tell me why they are wearing that bag this early in the sesaon.

Now, it\'s not like I\'m accusing them of killing little babies. I\'m just questioning why they are wearing a bag. To me, how much money someone spends at a game is irrelevent. Does the guy that has box seats have more or a right than the guy in the nose bleed section. Or does the guy watching on TV have less authority to bash. I can\'t stop and wouldn\'t try to stop someone from wearing a bag. But, you better beleive I will express my opinion on it.

[Edited on 24/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

Gator, if you read how this thread starts out, it begins with Billy posting a Phil Simms article and highlighting a paragraph he obviously agrees with. He then types three paragraphs explaining why he posted it that basically is summed up in the last sentence:
He then gets torn apart for his \"opinion\". He never said they were wrong. He said that he didn\'t understand the logic behind their position. A few guys got into a very civil debate and as far as I can tell...the first one to degrade the thread with smack was you. The fight went on to say how he was telling people their opinions were wrong and making personal attacks. I admit he\'s done that. So have you. So has almost everyone else at some time. I think he just got called out in this thread because has been the most prolific offender, more obvious by his post volume in a short window, ....but no way the only one.
Then make a rule and make all abide by it. If you want to make a Billy rule but let everyone else get away with the same thing....then yes I\'ll side with him because I know he can just rationally discuss football without completely ignoring someones opinion or personally attacking them. Why, because I\'ve experienced it. I also know that he leads with smack and complete disdain for posts by guys like OSD, BMG and 08 because that\'s all they\'ve led to him....quid pro quo.

I\'m not taking the side of his opinion on the issue of the thread, but I am siding with him on how he posts. Given the right mood I\'d likely post in the same manner. I just choose to ignore threads and comments made by individuals when I have no confidence they can rationally or calmly debate.

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

I have started several posts lately, but deleted them before they saw \"print\". My heart just hasn\'t been in it (had a death in the family), but I guess its time to get back to life.

I have been reading the many and varied opinions here and I have to ask a question: Is it OK to say that your team is a great when they are playing great?

The answer to this question is important. Many posters on this board seem to think that the answer to this question is a resounding \"yes\". By their definition, this is what a \"fan\" does. Now let me appeal to your logic: Is it OK to say that your team suck when they are playing awfully?

I know that this is perhaps an unfair comparison, but I remember a year (1980, so painful) wherein we went to the infamous team-worst record of 1-15. During that time, I often told people, \"Man, my team sucks.\" Did this make me a bad fan? A bandwagon fan? They were still my team. Was I somehow disloyal for telling people the truth in that we were an awful football team?

This season and this team is nowhere near the Saints of old, but we still have a ton of problems. No REASONABLE person would see it any differently. If two people look at an average football team and one sees the team as \"Super Bowl Bound\" and the other sees them as \"Bottom of the League\"; is any one of them more right than the other? If those two people go to a game and one wears the foam finger, the whistle-head, and a jersey to the game and the other wears a bag; is either more right? Did the guy in the bag go home Monday, stand around the water cooler and tell everyone he rooted for the FOTM, or did he say that he rooted for the Saints?

I have never worn a bag to a game, probably never will. But even if I did, it would make me no less a Saints fan. Because I choose not to wear a bag, it CERTAINLY does not make me any MORE a Saints fan nor any better.

That is a fundamental difference in the way most people see this thread. I am responding to a thread. This thread seems to have been posted as a challenge to those fans who are so desperate to win, they will try almost ANYTHING to spark something in their team. Though the language is polite, it is still a challenge to that type of fan\'s loyalty. Those challenged can respond with insults, attacks, or with reasoned out arguments but no matter how they do, make no mistake, they are responding to that challenge and the consequences of those responses must be carried by the originator of the challenge.

Just my opinion.

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

You know I\'m not eactly thrilled with everything the U.S. government does, but I do not go around burning the American flag. To me burning the American flag is disgraceful. Now, some don\'t see it that way. Some think they are actually helping the country out in some kind of way. They say they pay taxes and that\'s their right. Maybe so, but you will never convince me that it\'s right.

Samething with wearing a bag on your head to a Saints game. It\'s disgraceful and I don\'t think it\'s right. Sure you pay your money to get into the game and I suppose you can wear what ya want.

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

Burning a flag is one thing. But I would have no problems wearing a bag on my head while meeting my congressman. :P

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

With the way the democrats and republicans are always bickering it\'s like the AFC against the NFC. Personally, I think the congressmen should be the one\'s with the bags on their heads...

[Edited on 24/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

\"Burning a flag is one thing. But I would have no problems wearing a bag on my head while meeting my congressman.\"

LMAO!

That\'s the only good post out of about the last 20 in this thread.

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

No one wants to ban anyone here! But what I hope you all would understand is that we as editors and moderators have more people to watch out for than just the ones who post on the board. There are people who read this board everyday and never post. There are children who are not of age to see and read some of the things that get posted on here. Yes, some of them are funny, I agree completely with that, and yes censorship can cause some of the better points to be lost. If you guys would realize that what I say here is all true, then you would help us by not posting things not suitable for all members. We came very close to not having a board at all the other night. So I am asking you all one more time to help by policing your own posts so we won\'t have to. Again I will say, if you have a problem with that I don\'t. I will delete it or edit it!

[Edited on 25/10/2003 by JOESAM2002]

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

First of all, comparing rooting for the Saints to supporting your country is a warped and unfair comparison. Wearing a freakin\' bag on your head is NOTHING like burning a flag.

What this post was originally discussing was an article by Phil Simms in which he suggested that fans should basically just shut the heck up and enjoy the show. He made an assinine comparison between fans complaining about their team to citizens complaining about politicians. In my first post on this thread, I pointed out that neither fans nor voters needed to have anything more than lay knowledge to justify complaints. In politics, everyone is allowed a voice and a vote, regardless of their knowledge. The same applies, in a way to football. My money is my vote. If I pay to go to a Saints game, I can darned well wear a bag if that\'s the way I choose to express my current feelings about the team. I am still a fan. As Jude put it, the Saints are still my team. The bag is simply the method I choose to let them know how I feel about their current performance.

All that being said, going into tomorrow\'s game, the Saints need not look for bags. I even noticed that CBSSportsline has them favored by two. BUT... if the team falls apart and loses the next ten, I and other fans have the right to express our displeasure however we choose! Doesn\'t mean we we\'re not fans ... just lookin\' forward to next year. Isn\'t that the mantra of the Saints?

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

whowatches --

It\'s a very fair comparison because we are talking about personal beliefs. We are not talking about breaking laws here. People burn flags to protest things like entering into wars they feel are unjust. Who are you to tell them that burning a flag is disgraceful?? They pay their taxes don\'t they? Does this mean they don\'t love their country? Does this make them any less of an American? No it does not!! But it is a disgraceful act -- Just as I contend that wearing a bag on your head to a Saints game is !!

whowatches -- I\'m going to take your same little paragraph here and subsititute a few words and show you how you can justify burning a flag the same way.

Original Statement to justify wearing a bag:

Same reasoning to justify buning the American Flag:
.

The point is -- America is a free country and you have the right to wear a bag to a Saints game and to burn the American flag. But, there are better ways to express your opinions. I\'m sure burning the American flag doesn\'t help the moral of the soldiers and I\'m sure wearing a bag doesn\'t help the moral of the Saints players. Hey, but that\'s just my opinion. Burn Flags or wear bags, but there are more tasteful ways !!





[Edited on 26/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

Question? Hasn\'t this thread become the latest in a long line of dead horses yet? Seems to me the whole world knows by now how you feel about the bags. Let\'s go on to something else.

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

[Edited on 26/10/2003 by JOESAM2002]

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

Football is entertainment. Money is the motivating factor in football. Wearing a bag is a way to support the team monetarily (so that they don\'t move to another venue) while still making an opinion known.

Burning a flag, while legal, is an idealogical decision which shows a complete disgust for a governental policy or stance. Burning a flag shows disrespect to people who have risked their lives. Wearing a bag pisses off people who make millions of dollars to play a game.

Not the same at all.

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

Fantastic point and one I agree with completely.

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

Which point?

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

whowatches --

Money isn\'t the motivating factor for me. Money might be the motivating factor for the players, but I don\'t think there is a player in the league that wants to lose.

I\'m not trying to suggest that wearing a bag is as bad as burniing a flag, but the comparison is fair in pointing out that they can both be justified the same way. My only point is that both are less than stellar ways of showing displeasure. There are better ways.

Like I said this is just my personal belief and if you beleive the other way then we just disagree.

[Edited on 26/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

This one:

\"Football is entertainment. Money is the motivating factor in football. Wearing a bag is a way to support the team monetarily (so that they don\'t move to another venue) while still making an opinion known.

Burning a flag, while legal, is an idealogical decision which shows a complete disgust for a governental policy or stance. Burning a flag shows disrespect to people who have risked their lives. Wearing a bag pisses off people who make millions of dollars to play a game.

Not the same at all. \"

For the Bag Head Supporters
 

Billy, sure looks like you had a bad day at the office. Have you ever felt like the pivotman? If not, you should today. Stating your opinion is one thing, but downing someone else is not cool. Whether I want to wear a bag on my head or my azz is none of your business. BTW, I am not a bagwearer I\'m just one ol\'guy who for the last seemingly lifetime have wanted the Saints to be totally successful and go to the big dance. It\'s in the philosophy, the Florida Marlins just won their second World Series in 11 years of exsistence . . . go figure. Take our last three games -- the Colts make us the laghing stock of pro sports, then we win two against teams with worst defenses in the Universe . . . go figure. The best we can hope for is cautious optimism regarding our game against Carolina. If we win this game then yea we are beginning to improve in the areas we need to improve in and if we don\'t win then our cautious optimism has been misguided and maybe we aren\'t ready to play with a prime time team. In each of our own ways (every poster) wants nothing more than for the boys from the Big Easy to be successful . . . but we are entitled to our own opinions and if we don\'t agree with yours doesn\'t make us any less of fans than you.