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What would you have to see for the remainder of the season for Haslet to keep his job?

For me, we'd have to at least split with Tampa Bay and win every other game save one. That'd put us at 9-7. I'd want to see consistency and accountabilty on offense and steady improvements on the basic aspects of defense (ie. tackling).

You guys?

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An offense that averaged 25+ points a game from here on out, a defense that ranked in the top 10 in rushing yards allowed and points allowed and generated an average of at least one turnover from here on out, and a trip to the playoffs. Otherwise, buh-bye.

[Edited on 28/10/2003 by WhoDat]

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Haslett was a defensive coordinator .

In my opinion , a head coach should bring to the team the excellence of his previous experience .Gruden brought offense experience to the defensive Bucs and made them complete , Dungy brought defense experience to the Colts and made them better there .

Bare minimum Haslett has had 3 years to build a defense that ranks consistently in the top 10 . If the New Orleans Saints defense finishes in the top 5 , he warrants another look .

A man should master his own field of endeavor before he is allowed to control another .

[Edited on 28/10/2003 by saintz08]

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So a strong finish (6-2, 7-1) a no playoff appearance means Haslet should be gone?

I\'d be willing to let him stay IF the defense showed marked improvement (ends year in the top ten) and the offense starts living up to its potential. I\'d also like to see Haslet show some leadership. Maybe bench some guys who aren\'t performing or at least call them out.

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If things go according to plan you should see steady improvement by a team each year and in about the 4th year, your team should be in the super bowl. Here\'s a couple of examples where it worked to perfection.


But coaching isn\'t the only thing that goes into getting to the Super Bowl. Just look at what Jimmy Johnson did after coming back to coach the Miami Dolphins. Also if you look at Mike Shanahan\'s next four years after the last Super Bowl, you will see that the 4-year plan isn\'t woking this time around.

Why is it that these coaches couldn\'t acheive the same results the 2nd time around? I don\'t have those answers, but it can\'t be because they aren\'t good coaches. If you are going to base whether or not to fire coaches on winning and losing only, then you would be calling for Shanahan to be fired. Samething if you were a Dolphin fan when Jimmy Johnson was there.

Now, whether or not Haslett should be fired -- I don\'t know-- But, just looking at Jimmy Johnson and Mike Shanahan records, I can see that it\'s more than just coaching that\'s responsible for winning.








[Edited on 28/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

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When you win the big game, as Shanahan and Johnson have both done, you are given more leverage and time. Had Shanahan not won the Super Bowl for the Broncos, I doubt he would be there now, unless he\'s a tremendous con-man.

[Edited on 28/10/2003 by BlackandBlue]

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Here\'s my question. If everybody\'s saying that if the offense plays like they should and the defense gets better, then Haslett should be given another chance. Ok, the defense we all know has an excuse, injuries. So what excuse do we use for keeping him when the offense has played far below expectations so far this year. Sure we can blame it all on McCarthy but Haslett is the Head Coach, isn\'t he responsible too? I too am disappointed in the defensive side of the ball. Haslett was a defensive player and a pretty good one at that. He was a defensive coach, so why is our defense so bad after 3 years?

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BEAT agrees with Joe.
The official BEAT policy is that Jim Haslett is holding Brooks back.
BEAT also maintains that Jim Haslett doesn\'t know diddly-poo about being a head coach or improving a defense.
BEAT also thinks Haslett lacks the people skills needed to keep a team focused for an entire season.

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Joesam :
Ok, the defense we all know has an excuse, injuries.

Nope , that is called depth . That is where a coach , coaches and makes a player better .It is called competition at the position , which is what you want . It is called good judgement for bringing in competeitive players .

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UNBELIEVABLE,
In the era of free agency its impossible to have quality back-ups at every position.
IMPOSSIBLE. Hell its hard just to get quality starters at every position.
When you lose SIX starters on one side of the ball, I don\'t care how good your coach is or how good you draft, you are gonna suffer. We suffered big time.

Everybody is kissing Bill Belichek\'s butt because he\'s done such a great job while having lost several starters on both sides of the ball.

BUT HE DIDN\'T LOSE 1/2 HIS FREAKING STARTERS ON ONE SIDE OF THE BALL!!!!!!!

If its no excuse, why is everyone falling over themselves kissing his butt for the awesome job he\'s done?

Gee, has anyone noticed that as we\'re getting starters back our defense slowly seems to be improving?

Well golly gee fiicking whizzz! SHAZAM!!!!

I guess thats just a coincidence.

Mike Shannahan must also SUCK since his team is now struggling. Forget that he has to use Danny Kannell. He should be able to coach him into a quality QB.

Dan Reeves-What a loser. He sucks as a coach since the Johnson/Kitner combo has looked so poor. Why does everyone blame the loss of Vick for their problems?

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Tweeky --

I agree completely. It\'s unbeleivable what get\'s posted on here. I think some folks are willing to look at the truth for other teams but CANNOT do the same for the Saints. At least that sure appears that\'s the way it is to me. Just remember what some of the members here were posting before the season ever started. Now, maybe they will get proven right and they don\'t want to hear no excuses. They just want to say: \"See I told ya so.\"

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See ANYTHING posted by Saintz08.

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No thanks -- :P

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Injury reports before the Saints and Panthers game .



NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE
Carolina Panthers
Probable RB DeShaun Foster (thumb); S Mike Minter (back)
Questionable LB Brian Allen (groin); DT Brentson Buckner (hip); DT Shane Burton (groin); RB Nick Goings (concussion); WR Karl Hankton (hamstring); LB Dan Morgan (concussion); WR Muhsin Muhammad (concussion)

New Orleans Saints
Probable TE Ernie Conwell (shoulder); WR Michael Lewis (groin)
Questionable LB Sedrick Hodge (knee); DT Grady Jackson (finger); WR Donte\' Stallworth (thigh)

Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Probable CB Ronde Barber (hamstring); TE Ken Dilger (foot); QB Shaun King (ankle); LB Shelton Quarles (forearm/elbow); DE Simeon Rice (back); G Jason Whittle (shoulder)
Questionable T Roman Oben (hand)
Doubtful WR Joe Jurevicius (knee); S John Lynch (shoulder)

Indianapolis Colts
Probable TE Dallas Clark (foot/hamstring); CB Walt Harris (knee); RB Edgerrin James (back); DT Montae Reagor (knee); RB Dominic Rhodes (knee); C Jeff Saturday (back); RB Detron Smith (head); C Justin Snow (elbow); LB Marcus Washington (foot)
Questionable CB Cliff Crosby (groin); T Ryan Diem (ankle); T Tarik Glenn (knee); CB Joseph Jefferson (pelvis); T Adam Meadows (knee)
Doubtful RB Ricky Williams (ankle)

Kansas City Chiefs
Probable LB Shawn Barber (knee); RB Derrick Blaylock (hamstring/hip); WR Marc Boerigter (toe); DT John Browning (shoulder); QB Trent Green (thigh); RB Priest Holmes (shoulder); LB Kawika Mitchell (hamstring); WR Johnnie Morton (ankle); S Greg Wesley (knee); S Jerome Woods (shoulder)
Questionable LB Fred Jones (foot); CB Dexter McCleon (thigh); DE R-Kal Truluck (ankle)


Injuries are all part of it .




[Edited on 28/10/2003 by saintz08]

[Edited on 28/10/2003 by saintz08]

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08 -- Are we supposed to believe that injuries don\'t cause teams to lose games? Sure, injuries are part of it, and everyone has them. But, if injuries don\'t matter, then why do they affect the betting line in Vegas?

[Edited on 28/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

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http://www.footballpicksinfo.com/

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Billy ,

Simply because injuries can effect the outcome of a game .

Does not mean they do , just means they can .

Wonder what the point spread went to for the Patriots when Bledsoe went down ??

Then again Warner and Faulk for the Rams ?

Fiedler for the Dolphins ?

James for the Colts ???

[Edited on 28/10/2003 by saintz08]

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08 -- Nice try, but.................


Can you name me ANY team that loses 6 starters on defense and it DOESN\'T effect the outcome?

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08 --

I see where you edited your previous post to give some examples of injuries where teams won despite those injuries.

First of all, you can attempt to make a case by giving those examples, but it\'s a poor one. There have no doubt been teams that DID NOT make the playoffs because of injuries. So, you can sit there and say that injuries are no excuse for a team not being successful and show me where teams have done well, even with injuries, but to say that injuries DO NOT play a big part in the outcome of a game is RIDICULOS.

[Edited on 28/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

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Injuries don\'t make a difference? Is this was the old man of the sea (Saintz08) is trying to argue. Tell ya what 08, get off the Kool-Aid and see the \"Atlanta Flacons\", and then go take your afternoon nap old man.

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Tuesday, September 23, 2003

Pats\' depth being tested by injuries


Associated Press

©Copyright 2003 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
E-mail this story to a friend






FOXBORO, Mass. — Ted Washington played dominoes in the Patriots\' locker room Monday with his broken left leg in a knee-high cast and his crutches on the floor beside him. He won\'t be involved in more strenuous games for a while.

The 365-pound nose tackle joined other New England defensive starters on the sidelines when he was hurt on the sixth play of Sunday\'s 23-16 win over the New York Jets.

\"It\'s crazy, man,\" center Damien Woody said. \"I\'ve never seen anything like this.\"

At least Washington may play again this season. Linebacker Rosevelt Colvin and offensive guard Mike Compton won\'t after they were placed on injured reserve Monday.

The Patriots lost linebacker Ted Johnson for at least half the season with a broken left foot in their first game, then lost Colvin with a broken left hip in the second.

So when Mike Vrabel left Sunday\'s game with a right arm injury, the only starting linebacker from the season opener who was still playing was Tedy Bruschi.

\"I\'m numb to it because I have to be,\" Bruschi said. \"I can\'t let it affect my mentality. I can\'t let it affect my play.\"

Two other injured starters, Compton with a foot injury and fullback Fred McCrary with a knee injury, didn\'t suit up against the Jets. Then wide receiver David Patten left the game for good with a right leg injury in the first quarter.

Combined with the injuries on defense, that meant the Patriots finished the game without seven of the 22 players who started their opener.

The only injury update Coach Bill Belichick gave Monday was that Washington would be out \"for a while.\"

Two other starters played after being hurt - quarterback Tom Brady, who left the field clutching his right elbow after being hit by linebacker Sam Cowart, and cornerback Ty Law, who stayed on the ground several minutes after hurting his ankle.

\"You just see so many guys drop like flies around here,\" said Woody, who moved from center to guard in place of Compton. \"It\'s just really frustrating because these guys that are dropping are key guys.\"

On Monday, the Patriots re-signed running back Patrick Pass, who was released in the last round of training-camp cuts, and offensive lineman Wilbert Brown, claimed off waivers from Washington.

The Patriots won their last two games with former starters Roman Phifer and Willie McGinest filling in at linebacker and fullback Larry Centers playing more than usual.

The biggest loss is Washington.

\"A middle linebacker\'s best friend is a big man in the middle and he was our big man in the middle,\" Bruschi said.

Rick Lyle, who spent most of his previous nine NFL seasons as a defensive end, was Washington\'s primary replacement against the Jets and figures to see plenty of action Sunday against Washington.

But at 6-feet-5 and 285 pounds, his style is more dependent on mobility than Washington\'s.

\"It\'s a tough situation but it\'s part of life,\" defensive end Richard Seymour said. \"It\'s a difference when you don\'t see big Ted in the middle and you look to the outside and Colvin\'s not there and look behind you, Ted Johnson\'s not there.\"

The healthy players, many of them rookies, must go on.

\"We\'re going to try to keep this thing moving because the league stops for nobody,\" Woody said. \"So we\'ve just got to go get ready with what we\'ve got.\"

Ok, you're the boss...
 

Well, 08. Now, that article you posted has changed my mind about injuries. No longer will I look at injury reports for our team and the opponents. Obviously, I have just been wasting my time. I\'m glad you showed me the light. Now I feel much better about playing the Falcons if Vick is back at QB.

Ok, you're the boss...
 

Injuries can effect the outcome of a game. Alright.
There are no \"if\'s\" in football, but which game would we have won with our starters on defense (and the beerman)? Seahawks? Who was out at that point despite Mel Mitchel and Darren Howardl? Don\'t think they could have pulled this one out. Titans? A simple no. Colts? Not even gonna go there. Panthers #1? Maybe. But I still doubt it. Panthers #2? I would consider the Saints relatively healthy going into the game. 10 of 11 starters return on the offensive side, a defense that should have \"gelled\" by now ...
It\'s the 2 Panthers games that could have been turned around, but they seem to find a way to win this year.

For Haslett to keep his job, we would have to make the play-offs. Simple as that.

One more thing: Losing Vick certainly was a big blow for the Falcons, but now they get exposed as a terrible football team. Their defense will still suck when the messiah returns. You can only hide behind injuries so much.

Ok, you're the boss...
 

Weak 08, very weak and transparent.
1. You pick one team who lost 7 starters from both sides? Dude, we lost 6 on one side of the ball. Apples and oranges.
2. You also pick one team who arguably has the very best coach in the NFL, and everyone is still shocked at how they\'ve overcome injuries.
3. You pick a team who won the SB 2 years ago and was loaded with talent to begin with.
4. If injuries weren\'t a big deal, then why did the AP do a 1000 word\'s on how NE has miraculously overcome devastating injuries.
5. Every coach and player in the league will say the exact same thing about injuries whether they believe it or not. Its the same as \"taking it one game at a time\".

You remind me of a friend of mine. No matter what the topic, he takes the opposition and tries to back it up with spurrious correlations, 1/2 truths and fuzzy logic, just to be disagreeable.
You should have been a democrat politician.
Hmmm...
Are you Bill Clinton?

[Edited on 28/10/2003 by tweeky]

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Seahawks-maybe Mitchell and Howard were HUGE
Titans-Maybe, who knows?
Colts-IMPOSSIBLE to tell with 6 freaking starters out. I think Manning destroys all 31 team\'s 2nd stringers just as he did ours.
Panthers#1-Definately, without a doubt.
Panthers #2-Maybe.
This Saints team with \"typical\" injuries suffered by other teams would be 5-3.

NFL Football is nothing but IF\'s
How can anyone blindly say there are no IF\'s in football.
IF a team plays well and IF the other team plays bad...
IF a player misses a block, no gain, IF he makes a block, TD...
IF a player catches a ball...
IF a player gets clipped by a QB in pre-season...
IF the official gives you the right spot...
IF the official gives you a bad spot...
IF you blitz on a screen pass...
IF IF IF.

THE NFL IS NOTHING BUT A SERIES OF IF\'S.

IF the official calls Brady\'s forward pass a fumble, the Raiders go to the SB in 2001.
Man I could go on for 6 years on IF\'s in football.

Ok, you're the boss...
 

Hey ya\'ll. Saintz08 doesn\'t think injuries effect football teams. Stop laughing...really, he doesn\'t think so. No, really, beleive me, he doesn\'t. Read up in this thread, I SWEAR I\'m not lying. He doesn\'t even think the injury to Michael Vick hurt the Falcons this year.


....no, really, I freakin\' SWEAR he thinks that way. It\'s beyond the Kool-Aid people, this guy is totally loopy.

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Your right. There are no \"ifs\" in football that is going to change the win/loss column, but there are \"ifs\" that change the outcome of a game.

Darren Howard being out is huge. I\'m not saying that we would have won but having your best pass rusher out can affect your whole defense scheme. It\'s not how many players you have out sometimes -- It\'s who you have out


Now how could you consider us relatively healthy? We had 5 starters out on defense. I think we easily win that first game if we have those players.


I\'m leaning that way, but it\'s not that simple in my mind.

Ok, you're the boss...
 

For Haz to keep his job...
Play good football through the end of the season.
If thats 8-8, 9-7, 10-6 so be it. But as long as we play good football and show improvement, he gets another year.

For Haz to lose his job...
Another collapse like last year. 5-11, 6-10 (bad football).

Ok, you're the boss...
 

Tweeky:
For Haz to keep his job...
Play good football through the end of the season.
If thats 8-8, 9-7, 10-6 so be it. But as long as we play good football and show improvement, he gets another year.

For Haz to lose his job...
Another collapse like last year. 5-11, 6-10 (bad football).

So tweeky , you are willing to settle for a standard that was not good enough in Tampa Bay and San Francisco ????

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While we\'re on the subject of firing Haslett. Firing Haslett might be the thing to do. However, it is most certainly not the only good option we have. It\'s amazing to hear some of you guys. Most of you that are calling for Haz to be fired are the same folks who were blaming Brooks for all the problems. Oh, and you\'re also the one\'s that were saying to cut Jay Bellamy. Jay\'s played pretty damn good this year, hasn\'t he? Yeah, but y\'all wanted to cut him. Not move him to his natual postion, but CUT him. Some of you have already labeled Jonathan Sullivan a bust. I\'m glad that Benson didn\'t let y\'all cut Bellamy and Brooks.

Instead of firing Haslett, we could get a new general manager and a new defensive coordiantor. You want to fire McCarthy too? Not me. Yeah, our offense has struggled some this year, but it sure ain\'t all McCarthy\'s fault. Is this all some of you know? FIRE -- CUT -- FIRE -- CUT-- FIRE -- CUT !! When does it stop?



[Edited on 28/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

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Not even a good try 08. If you were in charge you\'d have fired Belicheck for going 9-7 last year.
If we had the talent TB had, yeah 8-8 would be unacceptable.
When Dungy was fired, he had taken a TB team to the NFC championship game I don\'t know how many times. He had one of the best teams in the league and the window was starting to close. TB had a chance to bring in the missing piece (which I disagreed with) before the window closed. Using your flawed Tampa loving logic, 12-4 and 13-3 demanded a change? So any team that doesn\'t finish over 11-5 is settling?
WEAK

Haslett has taken a piece of crap and built a competitive team. If they improve and play good football, why change and start rebuilding again? That would be foolish.

But if we reach the NFC championship game 3-4 years in a row and fail, and one of the best coaches on the planet becomes available, and we\'re still in our window of opportunity, and he looks like the missing piece to a championship, then yeah you make a change. 8-8 would not be good enough.

I hope even you can see the logic in that.

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Sorry tweeky, but 08 can see no logic. He views the world through Delhomme goggles and like Billy said, he\'s the self appointed leader of the \"FIRE \'EM ALL\" group. He\'s the kind of guy who sits there in his chair and proceeds to tell the world how it should be. You can bet his \"I know it all\" attitude isn\'t limited to football. You can bet there are a LOT of people in this world who hear him talk about various things (to include football) that walk away from the conversation shakin\' their head at what they just heard.

...and No, he\'s not Bill Clinton, but I\'d be money he voted for him. I betcha he voted for David Duke too! ;)

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I totally agree that we should take into account everything that happens with this team for the remaining games before we start writing pink slips.

That being said, hasn\'t McCarthy\'s performance so far at least called his abilities into question? I\'m willing to give him the rest of the season, but he\'s been more disappointing than Venturi in my eyes. At least we knew what to expect out of Venturi, and he\'s dealing with a rebuilt squad. McCarthy has talent on his side of the ball.

Like I said in an earlier post, this season can still show us quite a bit about the players and coaches. I\'m wiling to reserve judgement, but I don\'t think McCarthy should throw those resumes in the shredder just yet.

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Here\'s the thing about McCarthy. Last year we lead the NFC in scoring. This year there have been a lot of dropped passes and mistakes by the PLAYERS. I fault McCarthy too, but I\'m no offensive coordianator and it\'s not OBVIOUS enough for me to be calling for him to be fired. And like you said, there are still 8-games to be played. Let\'s face it. McCarthy knows a hell of a lot more about what he\'s doing than the rest of us. When plays work the coordinator looks like a genius and when they don\'t he looks like an idiot.

I\'ll let the season work itself out and I will call it like I see it. But, my opionion is just that, an opinion. I\'m not going to sit here and pretend I know that firing everyone is the best thing, when I have zero coaching experience. I\'ll leave that to the resident experts.

[Edited on 28/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

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Kinda makes you think huh? Wonder if this coin has two sides? ;) Is there no middle ground? Is everything black or white? Can\'t we all just get along? :o

[Edited on 28/10/2003 by JOESAM2002]

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I was about to type the same thing Billy. Mike has done some questionable things, but it\'s possible the players (see dropped passes and poor execution all around) have called his abilities into question with their performance (or lack of it). The Saints seem to be playing catchup this year, and it has to be difficult for an O coordinator when he\'s always playing from behind.

I\'ll say right now that I\'d like to see a change at defensive coordinator next year, but Venturi has been handicapped with injuries this year to the point that I don\'t think it\'ll happen. We\'re probably lookin\' at the same coaches next season.

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Damn leave for a bit and see what happens .....

Where to start .

Haslett firing , any of you let\'s let him drag this continued soap opera on posters want to keep Ditka ??? Haslett for some reason and I have not got a clue why , is the follow the leader head coach . Saints had Glover and that was not good enough because the Ravens had two lard butts up front . So Haslett goes out and does the heavy lunch bunch experiment , then the Bucs win with a 2 and 3 gap defensive tackle , so Haslett goes out and gets himself one . Not to mention the fact , he for some reason needs to revamp the defense every year and use the geling excuse every September .This is a former defensive coordinator turned head coach , who cannot settle on a defense .And yes I realize adjustments have to be made from time to time .

There is a point within an organization that a standard must be maintained at , the Saints are not a decimated team .The point in which a head coach states we are losing and I do not know why , you have to wonder .....why .

Why waste the time ????

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Haz hasn\'t reached \"Ditka Bad\" yet. But if he loses this team and has another collapse then I think we all agree, he\'s gone.
But if they play good ball and improve (something they didn\'t do under Ditka) then I say another year, unless there\'s an awesome coach who wants to come here like a Gruden type. (Ha Ha Ha, like thats gonna happen).

I do think an 8-8 finish may require some assistants getting booted, but 9-7 should buy him another year.
But if we don\'t get a CB and a stud LB in the offseason I say off with all their heads. ;)

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Tweeky ,

The comments alone that come out of the Saints facility alone are worth the value of second guessing . Then add the unmotivated players , the general up and down play factor , the constant in fighting among players , the weight gains by the lunch bunch and the end of season drop offs . You have what constantly looks like a head coach in over his head .Haslett is beginning to look like Mora head coach/GM .

Haslett has gone 10-6 , then got the tougher schedule and went 7-9 and then the weaker schedule and went 9-7 this year he could go 9-7 optimistically and potentially 8-8 he would be in 4 years a slightly better then .500 football coach .

The team showed flashes with Zook and Riley and has struggled since their departure .

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I will plainly admit that I advocated and given the opportunity, would have cut Jay Bellamy. Strong safety is only Bellamy\'s natural position by degradation of his speed. He was a free safety at Rutgers and Seattle before he was plugged into the strong safety role for a total of 7 games in Seattle and finally this year here. So I\'m not sure how you mean his natural position in this post.
What point are you making here? So the coaching staff was smart enough to recognize that he still has value. We could generate a list of the bad personnel moves as well. We could amass a list of players brought in here to replace perfectly good ones that we let walk, only to see them fall flat on their faces. We could do that with every team in the league. So fans called for Bellamy\'s head and he proved them wrong. Good for Jay. He\'s had a great year and been a class act every day. Maybe adversity is what he needed to right his own ship. Perhaps personal adversity is what some other players need as well.