Interesting Question?

ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs- · 11-05-2003, 04:49 PM

Again, I\'m not saying Brooks should not run more. I want to see that too. My question is about his ability and improvement as a pocket passer. He looks like he is improving just fine to me. You can say he isn\'t a good pocket passer, but based on what? And if you apply those same standards to the other QB\'s that I listed, what does that say about them? I\'m not saying he\'s in the same league with Peyton Manning as a pocket passer becuase he is NOT !! However, I don\'t think he\'s gettig enough credit for improving as a pocket passer. You can\'t just put up stats like Brooks this year and be as bad as some are suggesting. And yes...............THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.

saintfan · 11-05-2003, 04:57 PM

What you need to remember is that Brooks is N-E-V-E-R going to be acknowledged properly on this board. Certain members just don\'t like him man. Take the posts from those people for what they\'re worth, and even call \'em out on it if you wanna, but forget trying to force them to judge or compare Aaron Brooks favorably...isn\'t gonna happen. Too many old school folks in here still practicing Pea Patch politics. AB\'s initials aren\'t JD and they never will be. Do like Brooks and hold your head up high above the rediculous posts in here (in the same way Aaron has handled the ignorant fan reaction in the Dome) and let those with short-sighted vision go there on little way. They\'re wrong and deep down they know they\'re not being fair...doesn\'t matter to \'em tho, cause they think JD was treated the most unfair, so they justify it that way. See past it and then they won\'t get to you quite so much.

ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs- · 11-05-2003, 05:01 PM

I know there are some members on here that won\'t judge him fairly, but the members in this thread, to the best of my knowledge, aren\'t in that catorgory. So, I thought we might get some legit responses. I\'ll admit that Aaron has a ways to go but I think he is making progress.

JudeThaddeus · 11-05-2003, 05:30 PM

There is no question in my mind that AB is making progress towards becoming a better pocket-passer. I just question whether it is necessary. I sort of see this as a coaching failure. I understand the coach\'s desire to eliminate some of his bad habits from years back (i.e. throwing off his back foot, trying to force throws into coverage, etc.) However, I think they could have worked on those bad habit and still played to Brooks\' strengths. I mean, the guy is extremely difficult to contain and stop when he is allowed to improvise. In the pocket, he just can\'t seem to match the accuracy he seems to have on the run. No one can argue that his accuracy has been a problem this year, but he seems cured when he gets flushed and is allowed to play-it-by-ear.

Let\'s look at Michael Vick for a minute. Everyone crows about Michael Vick because of his performance last year. There was a lot of comparison between the cousins and AB came out on the short end of it. Do I think Vick is THAT much better than Brooks? No, I don\'t. I do believe that AB has been somewhat handcuffed by the offensive image the coaches seem to want to pound him into. It\'s going to be really tragic that AB will likely not go down in history with the credit he rightly deserves because he is not allowed to play his game.

Now, before everyone thinks I have lost it totally let me say one thing. I am not sure we can improvise effectively this year and that may be why the coaches are making the choices they are. For whatever reason, our receiving corps seems to be having trouble making the right decisions when a play goes south. The only ones who seems to be coming back to the QB and working to get themselves open are Horn and perhaps Conwell. I am not surprised that they are such prevalent targets. They both have a ton of experience and truly know how to play their positions. Why isn\'t Pathon? If he were, you can bet he would have more catches this year. Stallworth is too young and immature and Lewis too small. Boo and Rasby don\'t get enough playing time so I really cannot assess them.

Bottom line: I think AB is great QB when he plays HIS game. I think he is so much less when forced into our current system. Just my two cents.

ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs- · 11-05-2003, 05:39 PM

Jude -- Good post. I agree that they need to play to Aaron\'s strengths more. I don\'t understand it at all. Maybe since every game is a must for the Saints the rest of the year, they will use Aaron more wisely.

WhoDat · 11-05-2003, 07:59 PM

If competion percentage and TD to INT ratio don\'t count. Then what does? Surely you can\'t say wins and losses? Since this is a team game.

OH MY GOD. Seriously?!?!?!?! I think I need to go dig up old posts. A while back, when I was talking about AB\'s numbers from 2002, I stated that his completion percentage, QB rating, and other RATIOS didn\'t stack up to other QBs in the league. Saintfan and Billy bashed me up and down this board talking about how I had a vendetta. How obviously all that matter was that Brooks threw for the 5th most yards and TDs. Billy went so far as to say that Brooks was responsible for the team scoring 30 points a game and the wins and losses. I think Saintfan said something along the lines of \"If you\'re trying to compare TD to attempt ratios on grass on days above 72 degrees and cloudy you may just have an agenda.\"

NOW, when his TDs and yards are down, Billy is looking at completion percentage and other ratios. Are you F-ing kidding me?!?!? Billy, you realize that this is a COMPLETE REVERSAL of your previous comments from the end of last season, right?

Billy, you are getting called out on this one. I\'ll give you one chance to say that this is a complete reversal from last season, then I\'m going to dig up old quotes.

ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs- · 11-05-2003, 08:07 PM

WhoDat -- I said back then and I still say do this day that TOUCH DOWN PASSES are more important than completion percentage.

NOW, when his TDs and yards are down, Billy is looking at completion percentage and other ratios

Down? He\'s on pace to put up about the same numbers this year. What are you talking about down? My point was that he is improving as a pocket passer. Now show me where I\'m wrong. Show me where he hasn\'t improved??

Passing Yards
Player Team Yds Att Cmp TDs Ints Long Rating
Kerry Collins NYG 2185 333 194 11 10 77 76.5
Peyton Manning IND 2128 270 184 16 6 79 102.2
Marc Bulger STL 2086 259 167 12 9 48 90.3
Tom Brady NE 2071 289 173 11 8 82 83.0
Brad Johnson TB 2068 296 186 16 8 75 90.3
Steve McNair TEN 1978 232 151 13 3 50 105.1
Jon Kitna CIN 1882 272 165 12 8 82 83.9
Tommy Maddox PIT 1871 274 164 8 11 50 73.4
Aaron Brooks NO 1837 277 164 13 6 69 85.7

Aaron Brooks 1837 277 164 13 6 69 85.7 ---- 2003
Aaron Brooks 528 283 3572 53.6 6.8 27 5.1 15 2.8 64 36/236 80.1 ---- 2002

[Edited on 6/11/2003 by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs-]

DblBogey · 11-05-2003, 08:28 PM

It is interesting to see where a thread takes you and this one is no exception. But the question on the floor is what is different and what needs to be done to revive the old AB to what endeared us to him originally and the coaches to keep him instead of JB. I agree with the consensus regarding that he is an instinct QB more so than a pocket QB. I can only hope that this the strength that AB has that the coaches will allow to develop.

WhoDat · 11-05-2003, 08:36 PM

All I\'m saying Billy, is that you and Saintfan argued until you were blue in the face that ratios were worthless, and just a tool I was using to twist the numbers to show that Brooks was a bad QB. So if those things are important, then Brooks\' numbers like completion percentage, QB rating, and yards per attempt, all of which put him in the bottom ten QBs in the league were valid. Great. So Brooks was a mediocre QB last season. Glad we got that straightened out. On to the playoffs this season.

ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs- · 11-05-2003, 08:36 PM

It is interesting to see where a thread takes you and this one is no exception.

Is that for me? With all due respect DlbBogey, I didn\'t take this thread anywhere, other than addressing what some other members posted in reply to your question. You seem to want to pile on at a time when my membership is in question on this board. I\'ve read a couple of other things that you\'ve posted regarding me and it is pretty clear to me that you have a problem with me. I\'m simply trying to have a debate on a subject and just because everyone doesn\'t follow your orginal question, doesn\'t mean this debate is without merit. Why are you worried about where I take a thread anyway? Have I offended you or anyone else?

11-05-2003, 04:49 PM	#11
ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs- Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 111	Interesting Question? Again, I\'m not saying Brooks should not run more. I want to see that too. My question is about his ability and improvement as a pocket passer. He looks like he is improving just fine to me. You can say he isn\'t a good pocket passer, but based on what? And if you apply those same standards to the other QB\'s that I listed, what does that say about them? I\'m not saying he\'s in the same league with Peyton Manning as a pocket passer becuase he is NOT !! However, I don\'t think he\'s gettig enough credit for improving as a pocket passer. You can\'t just put up stats like Brooks this year and be as bad as some are suggesting. And yes...............THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.

11-05-2003, 04:57 PM	#12
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Interesting Question? What you need to remember is that Brooks is N-E-V-E-R going to be acknowledged properly on this board. Certain members just don\'t like him man. Take the posts from those people for what they\'re worth, and even call \'em out on it if you wanna, but forget trying to force them to judge or compare Aaron Brooks favorably...isn\'t gonna happen. Too many old school folks in here still practicing Pea Patch politics. AB\'s initials aren\'t JD and they never will be. Do like Brooks and hold your head up high above the rediculous posts in here (in the same way Aaron has handled the ignorant fan reaction in the Dome) and let those with short-sighted vision go there on little way. They\'re wrong and deep down they know they\'re not being fair...doesn\'t matter to \'em tho, cause they think JD was treated the most unfair, so they justify it that way. See past it and then they won\'t get to you quite so much.
	C'mon Man...

11-05-2003, 05:01 PM	#13
ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs- Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 111	Interesting Question? I know there are some members on here that won\'t judge him fairly, but the members in this thread, to the best of my knowledge, aren\'t in that catorgory. So, I thought we might get some legit responses. I\'ll admit that Aaron has a ways to go but I think he is making progress.

11-05-2003, 05:30 PM	#14
JudeThaddeus Registered Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53	Interesting Question? There is no question in my mind that AB is making progress towards becoming a better pocket-passer. I just question whether it is necessary. I sort of see this as a coaching failure. I understand the coach\'s desire to eliminate some of his bad habits from years back (i.e. throwing off his back foot, trying to force throws into coverage, etc.) However, I think they could have worked on those bad habit and still played to Brooks\' strengths. I mean, the guy is extremely difficult to contain and stop when he is allowed to improvise. In the pocket, he just can\'t seem to match the accuracy he seems to have on the run. No one can argue that his accuracy has been a problem this year, but he seems cured when he gets flushed and is allowed to play-it-by-ear. Let\'s look at Michael Vick for a minute. Everyone crows about Michael Vick because of his performance last year. There was a lot of comparison between the cousins and AB came out on the short end of it. Do I think Vick is THAT much better than Brooks? No, I don\'t. I do believe that AB has been somewhat handcuffed by the offensive image the coaches seem to want to pound him into. It\'s going to be really tragic that AB will likely not go down in history with the credit he rightly deserves because he is not allowed to play his game. Now, before everyone thinks I have lost it totally let me say one thing. I am not sure we can improvise effectively this year and that may be why the coaches are making the choices they are. For whatever reason, our receiving corps seems to be having trouble making the right decisions when a play goes south. The only ones who seems to be coming back to the QB and working to get themselves open are Horn and perhaps Conwell. I am not surprised that they are such prevalent targets. They both have a ton of experience and truly know how to play their positions. Why isn\'t Pathon? If he were, you can bet he would have more catches this year. Stallworth is too young and immature and Lewis too small. Boo and Rasby don\'t get enough playing time so I really cannot assess them. Bottom line: I think AB is great QB when he plays HIS game. I think he is so much less when forced into our current system. Just my two cents.
JudeThaddeus Registered Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53

11-05-2003, 05:39 PM	#15
ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs- Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 111	Interesting Question? Jude -- Good post. I agree that they need to play to Aaron\'s strengths more. I don\'t understand it at all. Maybe since every game is a must for the Saints the rest of the year, they will use Aaron more wisely.

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11-05-2003, 07:59 PM	#16
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Interesting Question? If competion percentage and TD to INT ratio don\'t count. Then what does? Surely you can\'t say wins and losses? Since this is a team game. OH MY GOD. Seriously?!?!?!?! I think I need to go dig up old posts. A while back, when I was talking about AB\'s numbers from 2002, I stated that his completion percentage, QB rating, and other RATIOS didn\'t stack up to other QBs in the league. Saintfan and Billy bashed me up and down this board talking about how I had a vendetta. How obviously all that matter was that Brooks threw for the 5th most yards and TDs. Billy went so far as to say that Brooks was responsible for the team scoring 30 points a game and the wins and losses. I think Saintfan said something along the lines of \"If you\'re trying to compare TD to attempt ratios on grass on days above 72 degrees and cloudy you may just have an agenda.\" NOW, when his TDs and yards are down, Billy is looking at completion percentage and other ratios. Are you F-ing kidding me?!?!? Billy, you realize that this is a COMPLETE REVERSAL of your previous comments from the end of last season, right? Billy, you are getting called out on this one. I\'ll give you one chance to say that this is a complete reversal from last season, then I\'m going to dig up old quotes.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

11-05-2003, 08:07 PM	#17
ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs- Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 111	Interesting Question? WhoDat -- I said back then and I still say do this day that TOUCH DOWN PASSES are more important than completion percentage. NOW, when his TDs and yards are down, Billy is looking at completion percentage and other ratios Down? He\'s on pace to put up about the same numbers this year. What are you talking about down? My point was that he is improving as a pocket passer. Now show me where I\'m wrong. Show me where he hasn\'t improved?? Passing Yards Player Team Yds Att Cmp TDs Ints Long Rating Kerry Collins NYG 2185 333 194 11 10 77 76.5 Peyton Manning IND 2128 270 184 16 6 79 102.2 Marc Bulger STL 2086 259 167 12 9 48 90.3 Tom Brady NE 2071 289 173 11 8 82 83.0 Brad Johnson TB 2068 296 186 16 8 75 90.3 Steve McNair TEN 1978 232 151 13 3 50 105.1 Jon Kitna CIN 1882 272 165 12 8 82 83.9 Tommy Maddox PIT 1871 274 164 8 11 50 73.4 Aaron Brooks NO 1837 277 164 13 6 69 85.7 Aaron Brooks 1837 277 164 13 6 69 85.7 ---- 2003 Aaron Brooks 528 283 3572 53.6 6.8 27 5.1 15 2.8 64 36/236 80.1 ---- 2002 [Edited on 6/11/2003 by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs-]

11-05-2003, 08:28 PM	#18
DblBogey 500th Post Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 538	Interesting Question? It is interesting to see where a thread takes you and this one is no exception. But the question on the floor is what is different and what needs to be done to revive the old AB to what endeared us to him originally and the coaches to keep him instead of JB. I agree with the consensus regarding that he is an instinct QB more so than a pocket QB. I can only hope that this the strength that AB has that the coaches will allow to develop.
DblBogey 500th Post Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 538

11-05-2003, 08:36 PM	#19
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Interesting Question? All I\'m saying Billy, is that you and Saintfan argued until you were blue in the face that ratios were worthless, and just a tool I was using to twist the numbers to show that Brooks was a bad QB. So if those things are important, then Brooks\' numbers like completion percentage, QB rating, and yards per attempt, all of which put him in the bottom ten QBs in the league were valid. Great. So Brooks was a mediocre QB last season. Glad we got that straightened out. On to the playoffs this season.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631