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This is what made it painful to watch for me in the beginning of the season- all the penalties and turnovers. It was an inner conflict for me, because I knew it was going to take time for the O-Line to gel, as we have 3 new starters, and as a result, penalties would occur, which they have. But can you agree that the problems with the O-Line have lessened as the season has progressed, and now, they seem to have pulled a complete 180 from what they were at the beginning? I remember after the titans game, I seriously thought this would be the worst O-Line in the NFL. Now, I\'d put them in the bottom 5 of the top 15, the way they\'ve been playing lately.

[Edited on 25/11/2003 by BlackandBlue]

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your right about that part, but brooks gets plenty of time to throw the ball he just holds on to it way too long

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are you kidding me? scrambles away from it? i think its you who hasnt been watching the game. maybe, and i mean maybe, he scrambles away from pressure once or twice a game

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Yep, I do agree they are playing much better. My whole point was all the player turnover on the line each year. I\'d like to see them return the same starting line at least one-year. I think that has as much to do with the inconsistant play on the offense as anything. That and Brooks needs to improve.

I want to make a comment on something you said B&B and correct me if I\'m off base here:

Now, I think the run blocking has improved since Holland has been in the line-up. Deuce has his 2-best rushing games since Holland has started. I know in camp that it was reported that Holland was a tremedos run blocker and he certainly seems to be living up to that billing.........

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Pak -- We obviously aren\'t going to see eye-to-eye on this subject. Brooks does the things that you are talking about but not nearly to the extent you are trying to suggest.

There\'s much more blame to go around. You should try spreading it around.

Do you have your \" I hate Brooks\" shirt yet?

See 08 if you don\'t -- ;)

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i dont hate brooks, i want him to reach his potential, i think he can be a superstar but he doesnt play smart, and that is what costs us football games, he plays like an idiot, and if he continues to do that, he must be benched or replaced.

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Ok that\'s fair. But, I see some other things that enter into the picture here. Brooks sits in the pocket too long right? Well, I think part of the reason is that our receivers are covered and he\'s trying to wait for them to come open. When Donte\' is not in the game, teams double Joe Horn and Paython isn\'t the best in the world at beating single coverage. I know he could throw the ball away and needs to do that more, but it\'s hard for me to fault a QB too much for hanging in the pocket tough and be willing to take a hit to complete as pass. He needs to be more aware of the pass rush and protect the ball better though.

QB\'s are going to get sacked in this league, and Brooks doesn\'t get sacked anymore than other QB\'s and avoids more sacks than some folks might think, but he needs to improve in the areas that you are talking about.

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Hopefully, with this past years draft, you\'ll see this lessened, unless we go through another unexpected fire sale. If they can pick up a good tackle in this next years draft, they should be set for a long time to come. But the tackle position must be addressed in next years draft. Not for immediate help, but it\'s time to plan for the future at that position. 3rd rounder with potential would make me happy.
Holland is heralded because of his run blocking skills, you are right. And while his pass blocking skills may not be as good, think about it. Aaron Brooks doesn\'t scare opposing teams, Deuce does, and he needs all the help he can get in that case.

[Edited on 25/11/2003 by BlackandBlue]

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thank you sir, may i have another?

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Here\'s the problem Billy - and please don\'t take this the wrong way as I am NOT attacking you or Brooks. The problem is that a lot of us here see a QB that has improved in a number of areas, but the bottom line is that there\'s alwas something. In the beginning of the year he was still throwing poorly. Chalk that up to an injury hang-over, rust, still not fully recovered, whatever. Now he\'s giving the ball away like he\'s St. Nick and our opponents are poor little orphan children. The receivers haven\'t played well, the O-line\'s penalties have hurt us, but from where I\'m sitting, Brooks is the biggest problem... still... again, in terms of on-field execution.

AB has not been sacked much this year. He has not been pressured a whole lot either, even against defenses like Philly\'s, Tampa\'s, Tennessee\'s, Carolina\'s, and Seattle\'s. Those a GOOD defenses, and I would say the protection right now is better than it was this time last season. So is the run blocking.

The reason you get into arguments, which you very well may look for, is b/c when we criticize Brooks for the poor play that a whole lot of us see, you and your one partner in crime come running in to blame the line one week, the receivers the next, the defense another week, playcalling this time, special teams that time. You\'re always pointing somewhere different while most of us keep one finger pointed at Brooks, another at the coaches, and a third at the whole rest of the team. I\'m not saying it\'s right or wrong, but I will say that the fact that so many people see the same thing I see reinforces my position. Hell, my buddy, who is a huge Detroit fan, has sat next to me and hasn\'t missed a Saints game in three years, and that guy rips Brooks much harder than I do. If all these people on this board see it, if the media grumbles about it, and if people who have no emotional or sensational value or attachment see it, then to me, it\'s pretty hard to deny.

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WhoDat -- Your problem is you just can\'t seem to make up your mind on Brooks. Last year if it were up to you, Brooks would have been cut. Then a few weeks ago you said you were wrong about Brooks. Now, where do you stand. Do you still want to cut him? Probably since your solution to EVERYTHING is \"fire \'em all and rebuild.\"

WhoDat, are you familar with the history of most QB\'s in this league? I\'m not talking about the Tom Brady\'s and Kurt Warner\'s of the league. I\'m talking about the Aikman\'s, Elway\'s, McNair\'s, and a 100 other QB\'s that have been in this league. This is Brooks 3rd year as a starter and while he isn\'t perfect, he is definately an above average QB that is struggling no worse than the QB\'s I just listed. Can you deny that? Not if you are honest!! But, you go ahead and say that Brooks is the MAIN reason this team is losing and I\'ll keep right on blaming Brooks when it\'s called for and at the sametime spreading the blame around. I know some fans think the blame starts and ends with Brooks, but one day they will learn. Maybe, right after you do.........

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Hello to anyone, just found this site and I would like to be able to give you guys my feeling about our team. I\'m a true Saint\'s Fan, not a hard core fan but I love and \"hate\" the Saints.

I would like to say first that I respect everyone opinion and I\'m not going to make any comments about anyone personally. With that said, way would someone have to back up there opinions in the first place. This board is here to discussion opinions and feelings about the Saints good or bad. If someone here feels Aaron Brooks is playing like crap and needs to go, that is their opinion. If someone here feels Deuce is not living up to his end of the bargain for the team, again their opinion, be it be right or wrong.

Now, something I think everyone would agree on is that it is the quarterback\'s job to lead his team. I don\'t care what style of leadership, but he must be a good leader. And in my opinion Brooks\' is not a good leader. Yes, I believe Brooks has ability to be a great QB and can develop into a good leader, but he his to also have a good, or should I say a GREAT, leader to follow. Haslett is not the leader for Brooks.

I believe in order for the Saints to become a better team one of those guys most go!!! They have two totally different styles of leadership. Brooks\' attitude doesn\'t match with Haslett. I\'m not saying Haslett isn\'t a great leader either; just the two of them are not made for each other. I don\'t know if the problem resides with Brooks and his unemotional disposition. Or is it Haslett fault for not spending more time with Brooks trying to mold him into a great QB.

Now, I\'ve never been a Brooks fan. I just never got a good feeling with him. But he is our QB and I have no choice but to like it. So if one of them would have to go I would say Brooks. If Brooks would have that fire in his eyes and desire to win that shows though his actions and his play on the field I would say different. I just don\'t see it and would like someone who has it.

That would change to whole chemistry of the team in which I believe would be for the better. Brooks has shown us time and time again on the sidelines and after bad plays how it effects him and that to me is not the kind of leadership this team needs.

So, there you have it. That is what I think. Either get raid of Brooks or get raid of Haslett. As long as one goes. We should be better next year.

I don\'t accept everyone or even anyone to agree with me, but please don\'t attack me for my opinion.

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WRONG AGAIN Billy. Last year I never suggested that we cut Brooks. Trade him, find another QB to compete or get a shot, bench the guy, but not cut him. This year, I never said I was wrong about Brooks. That\'s you just reading what you want to read. I said that IF Brooks kept playing he was, THEN he would make a believer out of me, but he hasn\'t has he?

I\'ve continued to say that I am on the fence with Brooks. However, more often than not in the last three years I\'ve been on the \"find another option\" side of the fence. Billy, you admitted in another post a day or two ago that if Haslett doesn\'t make the playoffs that will be enough for you to want a new coach. How long will it take for you to feel the same about Brooks? 3.5 years as a starter enough? How do you rate him as a QB? You talk about me going one way then the other - this offseason you said I had an agenda b/c I said Brooks\' completion percentage, efficiency rating, TD to INT ratio, and other comparitive numbers were poor. You said that the only thing that matter were yards and TDs. Now that those two measures are down for Brooks, you\'re using the EXACT measures that you argued tooth and nail against me about less than 6 months ago. So you tell me - what is it Billy? Completion percentage? Efficiency? TDs? Yards? TDs to INTs? Yards per attempt? What? How do we rate Brooks?

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Cuting Brooks would be stupid.

We should do all we can to grossly overinflate his numbers so we increase his trade value.

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The problem with the way you view things WhoDat is you have tunnel vision. You do realize that there are 22 players between the offense and defense? I\'ve counted \'em, so I know this is true. I know you probably don\'t believe there is anyone but Aaron Brooks on the field, but just hurmor me and let\'s PRETEND there are 22 players. OK?

During the course of the season Brooks has had his ups and downs, but what about the other 21 players? Let\'s look at the Titans game, or the Colts game, of the Eagles game. Which one of those games did Brooks\' lose for us? Now, please don\'t avoid the question, like you are so famous for doing. Did he cost us the eagles game? He fumbled the ball at the goal line, (but let\'s not put any blame on Terell Smith) but didn\'t the Eagles offense have to drive 80-yards for a TD after that fumble? Did Brooks commit 12-penalties during the course of the game that put us in long down and distance situations? Did Brooks miss any tackles? Did Brooks cause Carney\'s field goal to get blocked? But, yet Brooks is the main reason we lost the game?

After EVERY loss WhoDat, you and just about EVERYONE else on here comes crying that Brooks lost the game for us !! There is no denying that. I can pull up post after post showing where this is true. I\'ve never heard a bigger bunch of whining fans in my life. Then when myself and Saintfan points out that there are acutally 21 other players on the field (we\'re still pretending, OK?) we are some how crazy because we don\'t see ONLY Aaron Brooks on the field.

I can and HAVE said that Brooks play has been erratic at times, but I also ain\'t so STUPID that I can\'t see OTHER problems that don\'t have a DAMN thing to do with Brooks. Let\'s just forget about the 1000 dropped passes and the 1000 penalties and the bad games the defense has had and let\'s come on this board and blame Brooks for EVERYTHING.

Short sighted folks posting short sighted opinions. Why fans can\'t place blame on Brooks when it\'s called for and still see the BIG piture is WAY beyond me. Then you guys have the nerve to say that you don\'t blame Brooks for EVERYTHING, but..... Is pathetic. It\'d take a damn blind and man to believe that.

Not only do the short sighted posters come on here after each loss and blame Brooks, we have some fans that come on here at half time and pin a loss on Brooks when we actually go on to win the game !!



[Edited on 26/11/2003 by BillyC]

Are you really going to start this again?

[Edited on 26/11/2003 by JOESAM2002]

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Billy, I think you will notice that the members here are actually singling out only the high paid palyers at impact positions that are not living up to performance expectations. Tebucky, Stallworth, Gandy, etc. get as much flak as Brooks when they fail to produce. As a fan, I feel it is warranted to give slack to a low paid player that doesn\'t play at a high level of effectiveness since that\'s why he is paid so low. Do you not feel that Tebucky Jones warrants criticism moreso that his salary is so high compared to the free safety market and his performance is not reflecting good value at this rate of pay? Brooks is a high paid QB in this league and he should be consistently performing to a relative level for this pay. If Deuce, Horn, Grant were inconsistent performers, they too would get criticism for not showing up all of the time since they are big contracts and expected to be foundations of this team. Brooks, for his level of pay, is expected to be a top 5 producer and will earn the criticism when he doesn\'t. If Brooks was the 15th highest paid QB in this league, I would not expect more than him being the 15th best QB. If we were paying Tebucky Jones $350K a year and gave up nothing to get him you wouldn\'t hear people talking about what a bust he is. But because he earns so much money and isn\'t one of the best free safeties in the game it is highlighted.

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LummOx -- Certainly I think that players that earn high salaries should be held to a standard for which they are paid. But, the level of unwarranted critcism that Brooks receieves on this board in not justified. Whether Brooks makes one dollar or one-hundred million dollars, his play is affected by the other players on the team.

Deuce Mcallister has had a great year, but in the Titans\' game he was held to 12-yards rushing. Was this Deuce\'s fault? Only if someone is so short sighted that they don\'t realize he can\'t do it by himself. But the fact of the matter is, Deuce\'s performance is not dependent on as many players as Brooks.

While Brooks has not been consistant as I would like, I know that some of that is not his fault. I know that throughout this year that the rest of the offense has contributed more to the lack of success on offense than Brooks has. If ANYONE wants to think that Brooks has stalled more drives than the 10-other guys on offense, then they either have blinders on, or they just plain out hate the guy.

I can sit here and place blame on Brooks for MANY things, but unless I come out and say that Brooks is a BUM and an IDIOT, then it\'s never gonna be good enough for some of the posters on here. Period !!!

I can show \'em where their critcism is completely wrong. YES, I said WRONG !! But, until Brooks\' takes us to the Super Bowl and wins it, it\'s never gonna be good enough, because to them, it starts and ends with Aaron Brooks. Like I said -- Short sighted fans !!


[Edited on 26/11/2003 by BillyC]

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OK, let\'s start with what you just said Billy. AB has 15 turnovers. Please provide me with proof of 15 drive stalling f-ups by the other 10 players on offense. This should be VERY easy given our offense\'s play, and is step one of your little proof. Go ahead. You told me that I have blinders on, that I\'m short-sighted, and wrong. Obviously, you see the big picture where I do not, so go ahead a straighten me right out. Show me why I\'m wrong. Can you even do this? If not, then you have no business making such bold statements... unless... oh, I see. You\'re a comedian. I get it now.

Go ahead Billy. Back all your talk up. You were wrong about the offense this season, wrong about the defense, wrong about special teams, wrong about the team\'s record and overall play, and now you\'re saying that you were wrong about Haslett. So go ahead, show me why you\'re not wrong about Brooks too.

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Hell, is that all I have to do to make you finally get you to admit you\'re wrong? How about the 2 -TD passes that Joe Horn has dropped. The 2 fumbles Deuce had against the Falcons. The 78 penalties that the offense has. All the dropped passes by Stallworth. The dropped passes by Conwell. The dropped passes by Paython. The missed blocks by the offensive linemen. The play calling by McCarthy. Should I keep going? Well, I won\'t because I can post a play-by-play of every game and you wouldn\'t see it, if it bit ya in the ass.

At least you finially come out and admitted that you are blaming Brooks more than all the other players on offense COMBINED !! Maybe now folks will realize how you think. Just like your little poll where the really knowledgeable fans on here didn\'t agree with you !! Now , you can\'t say \"see Billy, everyone see\'s it but you.\"

Drop back 10-yards and punt WhoDat --



[Edited on 26/11/2003 by BillyC]

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No, there are a lot more people who believe Brooks lost a few games for the Saints. BillyC, take just one game and count each mistake by each player, than go to the next game and count each mistake by each player. I bet you will than see that Brooks will be in the lead in almost all those games of player with mistakes. Sure everyone make mistake in some games, but Brooks just makes too many.

I believe I read on this board that Brooks has to play a flawless game in order for the Saints to win, I don\'t agree with that. Everyone else has to play flawless in order for Brooks to look good and the Saints to win.

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Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers. That\'s like me saying that Brooks has 300 incompletions this season so obviously he\'s stopped more drives than the rest of the team combined. No, a dropped pass or a penalty is NOT a drive stopper unless it happens at a specific time. A couple of weeks back, Horn dropped a pass and Brooks went back to him the next play. We scored on that drive. Gardner\'s two drops on third down plays stop drives. Is that simple enough for you to understand Billy?

You see, when Brooks fumbles the ball and the other team recovers, the drive is over. A holding penalty on first and ten hurts, but doesn\'t necessarily end it. A holding call on 3rd and 8, or a dropped pass, well, those both pretty much end the drive.

I know you don\'t understand football all that well Billy, but come one. This stuff is easy.

Interestingly, in the poll I put up, you didn\'t even answer that you thought Brooks was the answer. Even you said you thought the Saints should look to find a QB to develop to replace Brooks. Yet, in this thread, he\'s the answer. Sounds like Billy-speak to me.

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Man this is like taking candy from a baby. So you\'re trying to tell me if we are faced with 1st and 20 because of a holding penalty that this isn\'t a drive killer? I suppose if we make 20-yards you would be correct. Hell, how \'bout first and 30? You make me laugh !! Actually I\'m sad -- For you -- I thought you understood the game of football better WhoDat. I was wrong again.

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OK Billy, go back and count how many times we\'ve had a penalty during a series and picked up a first down. Then go back and count how many times Brooks has turned the ball over and we\'ve picked up a first down. I\'m guessing your results will look something like this:

miscues that didn\'t stop a drive: 150
Brooks turnovers that didn\'t stop a drive: 0

If a penalty, missed block, dropped pass, or anything of the like equated to a drive-ending f-up, then why don\'t teams just punt after one of them? First and ten, flase start, punt. Right Billy? The drive is over then, right?

No, of course not, and yet again you\'re showing that you will argue a ridiculous point in order to keep your little dream world from crumbling. If those things you\'re talking about KILLED a drive, then there would only be about 5 first downs in the LEAGUE this year. Sure, they hurt drives, but they DON\'T KILL them. Turnovers, on the other hand, result in first downs about 5 times a year when a team turns the ball over and their opponent fumbles it right back. 99% of the time, turnovers DO kill drives. If you can\'t understand that, and you say I know nothing about football, well, then I\'ll take that as a compliment.

What\'s worse is that I challenged you to a VERY EASY proof. List 15 dropped passes, penalties, or even turnovers by players other than Brooks, and you can\'t even do that. Yeah Billy, your view is built on real solid supporting evidence - it\'s called Tang.

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Where\'s that OWNED picture of the kitten when you need it BnB?

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You can post till ya blue in the face and drink all the WhoTang ya want to, but you are wrong about the above statement. Feel free to step up to the plate WhoDat.

C\'mon just admit you are wrong. We\'ve all been wrong and it will make you sound much more crediable...........

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I\'ve just copied that statement. It\'s classic. Thank you billy. Thank you!!

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http://banerunner.freeservers.com/images/owned.jpg

What? This one? I need new material...

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Thanks BnB. Can you please wade into that other thread? I need help. The lunatic is on the loose again and he\'s full of Tang.

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Billy, I agree that this is a team sport. Brooks is 1/11th of the offensive execution. No arguements there. It takes a coordinated 11 responsibilities for any play to work, and each player should be expected to perform his part in consistent success relative to the player\'s personal ability. But the importance of each of those 11 responsibilities is not equal on every given play. Players salaries within comparison of the position should also be a ranking of their ability at that position compared to their peers.
I know you think Brooks gets overly criticized and held accountable for more than his 11th share of the offensive problems, and I will agree that he may get overly blamed at times. But, I feel that given the position he plays (unquestionably the marquee position in this league), the salary he recieves, and the ability he possesses, it is not unjustified to expect him to get that kind of attention.
You quoted the Titans game and referenced Deuce. You were being generous saying that he had 12 yards rushing. I think he had 8, but that\'s meaningless. When the Saints had the ball (I think for 19 minutes of the game), they were already down and deep in their own end. The Titans stacked 9 in the box and dared us to throw and we ran Deuce up the gut for 5 of his 11 carries on our first two drives. If we asked Brooks to throw hail mary\'s on every play, no one would question his completion %.
I don\'t know how this arguement can ever end. The freak fumbles that Brooks exhibits when untouched are inexcusable. At least Pennington has a weird glove on to blame when he does it twice a game. I like Aaron Brooks. I think he has a world of talent that may go to waste. In all honesty I can only give him one more year to develop as a QB in every aspect of the position until I will be convinced he cannot progress as a player. I think alot of the problem is that he has too much potential. No one expects a player of Jake Delhomme\'s ability to play the game like Brooks can. He has no unrealistic expectations or unjustified criticism. The Panthers are elated when he does good and accepting when he makes mistakes. But when you have all of the ability in the world, that patience is thinner. By the end of next year, in my mind, he will need to show more focus and concentration to minimize dropping the ball, progressing through his reads at a faster rate, showing more touch on short patterns, developing pocket awareness by being more decisive with his actions to shorten the duration he retains the ball, better clock management, and distinguishing himself in a more vocal role publicly with this team to let the fans and media know that he leads this offense. As a fan, I need to see this from him. At that point, I will stop expecting it and be resigned that his simply is what he is. It is the expectation that he can be better that makes us not understand why he is not. Every fan needs to create that line in their minds as to when that time is. For some it has come and gone and then see no potential advancement from him.

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Yeah I can agree with that LummOx. Honestly I get tired of talking about Aaron Brooks. But, no one else wants to point out some of the short-sighted things said about Brooks so I volunteered for the job.

At this point I\'d just as soon talk about the proper technique to place the ball for the filed goal kicker !!

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Fill in Berger. He got the hand whacked last game.

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Its sad to see the team have a poor performance when a big game comes along. We want our team to rise to the occasion. McCarthy\'s play calling I criticized last year and no one commented, now its obvious. I hope that the next OC will be someone who can grow into the head coach job. Brooks performance this year has been disapointing, he has not improved alot. I feel thats the coaches responsibility to train him correctly and work on his shortcomings.We must realize that McCarthy puts this team in stupid akward positions on the field and that contrubutes to his poor performance. I say McCarthy out, trade Brooks for draft pics, keep Haslet 1 more year, get FA QB and draft a QB. What worries me is that the recievers are getting banged up. We need durable players with HANDS on the offense. All these dropped passes and fumbles are rediculous in the NFL. We need some intimidating BEEFY, MEAN, guys on the D. Every team that comes to the Dome should fear the punishment for taking the field against the Black and Gold! I hope that the draft and off seasnon moves correctly address the shortcomings and needs of the team. Brooks can improve, but when?

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I say that Brooks needs to take care of the ball better, I say he isn\'t very good at reading defenses, I say his touch needs to improve, I say he needs better pocket awareness and to be more decisive, I say he can\'t manage the game, I say he isn\'t a good enough leader, and I\'m a short-sided lunatic who clearly doesn\'t understand football and has an agenda - despite proving Billy wrong on just about every prediction he\'s made for the Saints this season. Lumm0x says these things and Billy AGREES. The agenda is clear Billy, it\'s yours against me.

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I agree with Gator.

Why don\'t we all head over to the A Break from the Brooks Debate thread and try to get some perspective on what\'s important.

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I tried really hard to avoid this thread, but that statement above is just way too much. Are there really people posting on this site who beleive, honestly, with all their heart, that dropped passes, penalties, and missed blocks, etc. DON\'T stop drives? Did you people just start watching football in August. My girlfriend did and even SHE knows better. Man I dunno if it\'s the Tang or the 08er-aid or what, but you people are f-ed up on something, and that ain\'t no lie!

Would any of you people (man I wanted to type something else there) like to stand in front of, oh, say, Bill Parcells, and attempt to tell him that dropped passes, penalties, and missed blocks, etc don\'t stop drives? GOD whodat, I wish you were a reporter for the Dallas Morning News, and I wish to GOD you\'d make that statement to Bill Parcells in a press conference, cause he\'d wipe the floor with your azz man.

:casstet:

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Saintfan, you\'re taking that quote completely out of context, but yes, I continue to stand behind that statement. My point was simple:

A. Turnovers stop drives. You cannot argue that.
B. Dropped passed, penalties, and missed blocks do not ALWAYS translate into a drive killers. They certainly HURT the drive, and they CAN kill a drive, but there are many many many times during an NFL season where a penalty, dropped pass, or missed block occurs during a drive and the team overcomes it. Honestly, if those things killed a drive without question, the way turnovers do, the Saints would probably have only scored one half, or maybe a third as many points this season as they actually have.

So, to answer your question, \"Are there really people posting on this site who beleive, honestly, with all their heart, that dropped passes, penalties, and missed blocks, etc. DON\'T stop drives?\" YES. They DO NOT ALWAYS stop drives. You won\'t hear me say that they don\'t hurt, especially when they occur often or on bad down and distance situations. However, I can give you numerous examples of false start penalties or dropped passes on first down that didn\'t stop a drive. Can you name one time that a turnover didn\'t stop a drive?

This all goes back to a challenge that I made to Billy which should have been extremely easy for him to quiet me on. I said that Brooks had 15 turnovers this season. That is undoubtedly 15 drives ended. I told Billy to give me 15 examples of times that other players stopped drives by dropping passes, committing penalties, or missing blocks. This should be VERY easy, there are lots of examples, yet Billy couldn\'t do it. I was simply trying to prove that Billy talks and talks but nothing he says is based on hard numbers or facts. That is still the case. Now, if you want, I can go back and figure out how many times the Saints have had a penalty, dropped pass, or missed block on a scoring drive this season. Care to wager that number is larger than the number of scoring drives by the Saints that included a turnover?

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Don\'t try and make that argument for my sake Whodat. Cuddle up next to Gator and sip that Tang. Maybe the two of you can share the same straw. You\'re mencing words from where I\'m sittin\', but the only word that matters with respect to that quote is silly. Just plain silly.

Don\'t make the argument for my sake man, cause I ain\'t buyin\' what you\'re sellin\'. Stand up in front of ANY NFL coach and make that statement...just do me a favor and let me know when and where, cause I wanna witness the look they give you right before they tell you you\'re crazy.

[Edited on 2/12/2003 by saintfan]

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If WhoDat stood in front of Bill Parcells and asked him if there is one thing that he could eliminate from his team\'s play, I can almost guarantee it would be turnovers. WhoDat is trying to tell you that turnovers are more costly than penalties, dropped passes and missed blocks. Both can have the same effect, given the situation, but apples to apples, turnovers are singularly a bigger problem.
Your consistent responses of \"go drink more tang\" surely defend your position in the arguement effectively. It effectively proves your \"Brooks goggles\" cloud your vision on any topic that could be potentially useful data to attack Brooks.
I don\'t dislike Brooks, and I\'m not against you when you believe he is a starting caliber QB in this league and should be the Saints starter now and next year, but in truth, you aren\'t an ally I\'d want to wade into this arguement with against these guys.

GATORMAN RULES
 

Thank you for your opinion lummox...next time I\'ll ask for it...k?

The problem you people have is that you, not I, are singular in your vision. You people blame Aaron Brooks for EVERYTHING...no exceptions. You occasionally post that Brooks performed adequately, and then you run back and point to it when your agenda becomes obvious. It\'s completely pointless to get you people to see the forest for the trees. You\'re too singluar in your views.

The fact remains lummox that the quote whodat made regarding penalties etc would NOT fly sir. You know it, which is why you re-worded the question. Whodat knows it too. It\'s the \"Tang Clan\" etc that attackes those with a different, complete view of the current Saints delima. I should know. I defend Brooks on this site not because of the \"Brooks Goggles\" you childishly refer to, but because I see other issues on this team. I have N-E-V-E-R indicated he would some day become a Hall of Fame QB. That is assumed by people on this site when someone trys to defend his play versus the TEAMS play. If the Saints lose a game, ANY game, people on this site point straight to Aaron Brooks. Some think he\'s stupid. Others think there\'s a freakin\' conspiracy theory for God\'s sake. Ultimately those people have deemed themselves (self appointed mind you) better judges of talent than people who actually played in the NFL or are otherwise paid to perform in it to some degree or other. With myself and a small number of others as an exception, most of the people who post here agree on this Brooks Agenda. Those with a different opinion don\'t last very long...at least not here. I find it odd that something could be so obvious to 5 or 6 guys on this site that management of the New Orleans Saints could have such a different opinion. On which side of the debate does the true NFL experience reside. Ask yourself that question, then take another sip of whatever it is you\'re drinkin\' and pass it on to whodat. Enjoy the party, just remember the prevailing opinion on this board is base on NOTHING, really, other than a few guys who don\'t like Aaron Brooks now and never did. ;)

GATORMAN RULES
 

Sounds to me like this is getting personal. I will ask you guys nicely to cool it down, or you know what comes next. Before anyone starts saying but I didn\'t start it, I really don\'t care who did, I just want it stopped. Thank you.