GATORMAN RULES
 

lumm0x - thank you.

Saintfan - EXPOSED!!!

GATORMAN RULES
 

Saintsfan, I didn\'t mean to hurt your feelings by questioning your gospel and make you ruffle the feathers. Just to inform you ...we are in a public message board to talk Saints. I don\'t think you have the right to veto people debating a topic until you request their humble opinions. Let me know if I need to PM you before I post?

I\'ll restate the question more clearly then: Do penalties, missed blocks and dropped passes kill drives? If you are looking for a yes or no answer then it is NO. They can, have and will, but they blatantly don\'t. Do turnovers kill drives. It is, and only can be YES. That was the question, and those are the answers. It is not a matter of Aaron Brooks, Bill Parcells, or any other coach, player, or fan. Those are facts.

GATORMAN RULES
 

I hit \'em high and lumm0x hits \'em low. You can call us \"the new dome patrol\"! ;) I\'m just glad there\'s one person on this board (actually two, Gator agreed as well) who can face facts without talking about agendas.

Or as Saintfan will probably say, I clearly have a turnover agenda b/c I am trying to single them out as more costly than penalties, turnovers, or missed blocks. The Who Tang Clan clearly has a turnover agenda!! You heard it here first folks.

GATORMAN RULES
 

LummOx --

I think you are fair with your posts but not this one. The fact is that penalties DO kill drives. Your attempt to say that the only things that kill drives are turnovers is RIDICULOS. If you want to get technical, I could say that turnovers don\'t kill drives. What if we fumbled the ball and the very next play the opponent fumbled the ball? We get the ball right back at the same spot and we\'re good to go. Sound ridiculos? Yeah, it does. Just like the argument you are trying to put up.....

GATORMAN RULES
 

OK Billy, reason and logic haven\'t worked so we\'ll try illustration, OK? See if you can get this:

1. If your offense turns the ball over on any play, can your offense score on the next play? NO. Thus, a turnover kills a drive unquestionably.

2. If your offense commits a penalty, misses a block, or drops a pass on any play other than 4th down can your offense score on the next play? The answer here is YES. So, while these things hurt drives, and CAN kill drives, they DO NO ALWAYS kill a drive. Get it?

Let\'s try it yet another way. How many times this season has the offense...

1. committed a penalty and still picked up a first down on that series?
2. missed a block and still picked up a first down on that series?
3. dropped a pass and still picked up a first down on that series?
4. committed a turnover and still picked up a first down on that series?

Is this really that difficult to understand? Don\'t you own an electronics store? If your customers pay with credit you get the money no matter what from the credit card company right? If they pay with a check you get the money MOST of the time but not ALL of the time, right? Digital vs Analog - digital is absolutely a 1 or a 0. Analog can be anywhere in that range... why is this so difficult for you to understand?

GATORMAN RULES
 

WhoDat --

Look man -- Penalties don\'t kill drives in no uncertain terms like a turnover, but they put offenses in next to impossible odds of picking up a first down. Especially, when they keep putting themselves in those situations. Do they have a chance? You bet. Have penaties caused a team to not pick up a first down and thereby killed drives? You betcha!!


You can argue with that till you are blue in the face but anyone knows that penalties can and have killed drives. Turnovers are INSTANT drive killers and penalties are the silent assassians !!

GATORMAN RULES
 

I read it. Most of the stuff I still feel the same way about. I\'ll go dig up some stuff that WhoDat posted in the past, but right now I don\'t have the energy.

GATORMAN RULES
 

Oh Billy, don\'t get your panties in a wad about that. It was getting pretty hot in here and everyone needed a laugh. Sorry to have done it at your expense, but you probably make the boldest statements of anyone on this board, so no matter what you\'re going to get burned sometimes. Sorry if I offended you, I just love bustin\' your balls.

On to the topic at hand: You Being Wrong Again. ;)

Billy, this was my entire point in the first place. You\'ve just COMPLETELY acknowledged what I was arguing. First and 15 after a false start doesn\'t help a job by any means, but it\'s not THAT bad. First and 20, then a third and 3 that turns into 3rd and 13, well those hurt a lot more. Of course, both ARE surmountable, whereas a 2nd down INT is not.

This all goes back to the original argument, which we all know is always about one thing: Aaron Brooks. This debate originated when I said that AB was very much to blame (albeit not entirely) for the Eagles loss. You claimed that he was not and that the O-line and receivers hurt us more. Clearly, you\'re wrong. We racked up 500 yards in offense, so it\'s not like we weren\'t moving the ball real well, penalties, dropped passes, and all. The loss at Philly was due in LARGE part to the 14 points that the Eagles scored off of Brooks fumbles and the 7 points that the Saints DID NOT score due to one of them. My point was that AB basically single handedly caused a 21 point swing in the game and that hurt us far far far more than all of the penalties, dropped passes, and missed blocks combined. You, of course, disagreed. Go figure.

GATORMAN RULES
 

WhoDat -- Nothing really bothers me on this board. I know it\'s important for you to be right but the facts don\'t support your arguement. You said the penalties DON\'T kill drives. You didn\'t say sometimes they do, Or, it could kill drives. Nope!! You boldly said that \"Penalties don\'t kill drives.\" Now you change it to \" They can kill drives.\"

It doesn\'t matter to me that you THINK you\'re right. It doesn\'t even bother me that you have to change your statement to somehow make yourself appear to be right.

Let me think about your statement(s) again??

Statement # 1 \" Penalties don\'t kill drives !! \"

Statement # 2 \" Penalties CAN kill drives !!\"

Sounds like doble talk to me. It\'s hard to hold an arguement like that. Ya know?

GATORMAN RULES
 

I was wrong about Tebucky this year. But, I\'m certainly not ready to label him as a bust.

Parcells has done better than I (and almost everyone expected) but the Cowboys might not make the playoffs and appear to be crashing. Now there can only be 2-reasons that the Cowboys don\'t make the playoffs and that is:

1. Coaching
2. Not enough talent.

If they don\'t make the playoffs, which one of those would you choose.

Like, I said. Parcells won\'t be successful, without the tallent. Now, he has got them to overachieve and he might very well go on to win the Super Bowl.

It\'s good to be back Gator.....

P.S. -- I\'m wrong all the time. Contrary to belief, I\'ve probably admitted it more than anyone else on here.....

GATORMAN RULES
 

Billy, you can\'t differentiate between \"CAN\" and \"DON\'T\"?

We\'re not arguing that penalties, missed blocks and dropped balls can\'t kill drives. We are arguing that they do not always kill drives. Turnovers DO. Any if your opponent fumbles the ball and you get it back it\'s called a change of possession and begins a new drive. Turnovers DO. I\'ll take a penalty, missed block or dropped ball any day over a turnover and so would any coach in the league.

Apples to apples...a turnover is more costly than any of the others.

I can\'t understand why I\'m having to argue this... :casstet:

GATORMAN RULES
 

Funny, and I thought I said:

Man you can\'t even get the facts of this argument straight. You even quoted the above statement in one of your old posts and we started an entire thread about it.

You just said:

Go reread this Billy and see if you can keep all the facts straight this time. I swear man, this stuff is comical.

GATORMAN RULES
 

LummOx --

You didn\'t step into a normal arguement here. Nope !! You stepped into an arguement between myself and WhoDat. It\'s refreshing to have a new face like yours in the arguement, but UNDERSTAND that this is some serious stuff. I appreicate you educating me on how \"turnovers\" work, but you really need to read the WHOLE thread BEFORE posting. The arguement was about this statement :

I can clearly differentiate between \"CAN\" and \"DON\'T\" Why you ask? Because this is no ordinary arguement. I have a hard enough time arguing with WhoDat and he doesn\'t need your help skirting around the statements that he makes. He does just fine by himself.

Your input is noted though ;)

[Edited on 4/12/2003 by BillyC]

GATORMAN RULES
 

Yet another Billy all-star moment.

OK Billy, just so we\'re clear, what I said above is that penalties and whatnot do not always kill drives. You\'ve argued this point for days and continue to, but you just said:

So which is it Billy? Does a penalty always kill a drive? That\'s what you\'ve been arguing for days. Now you\'re saying, well, not all the time - which is exactly the point I made in the first place...

If there was EVER a time for a brand spanking new BnB picture to display foot-in-mouth or just an act of sheer stupidity this is it. All I ask BnB is that you don\'t put OWNED on it. Make it say BILLY. Please.

GATORMAN RULES
 

Does the word HYPOCRITE mean anything to you WhoDat? Stupidity? Sounds like JoeSam might need to practice a little editing on you? Whatcha say JoeSam?

First place you made the statement. Not me !! I never said that penalties ALWAYS kill drives. No sir. Not me. Stupidity sir? That\'s reserved for HYPOCRITE like yourself. How does that shoe leather taste now WhoDat. Before you start losing an arguement and just plain out start lying, you should be prepard to get what ya give WhoDat.

Can ya hear me?

Or is your stupidity making you hard of hearing??

[Edited on 4/12/2003 by BillyC]

[Edited on 4/12/2003 by BillyC]

GATORMAN RULES
 

I didn\'t say he wasn\'t welcome. I said to get his facts straight. I can tell y\'all have been waiting to give me hell. Home Sweet Home..........

GATORMAN RULES
 

Gator - stop instigating.

Billy - man you are comical.

Now, are you going to try and argue that you did not use the word \"always\" so therefore your meaning was not that you believe that penalties fo not always kill drives? That was NOT your initial intent and anyone who reads this board can see that. You tune has changed Billy. I\'m not sure if you think that you zinged me on with that last post, but again I am laughing... hard. Seriously, give up, for your own good. You\'re only hurting your credibility on this board.

GATORMAN RULES
 

I would have edited it but dumb as I am I don\'t know what HYPOCRITE is? Besides if you two aren\'t tired of argueing this point then so be it. I guess you two can just keep going.

GATORMAN RULES
 

See what happens when you go away for a little while, it builds up so you get the whole load when you get back.LOL

GATORMAN RULES
 

Let\'s try this again, Billy, shall we. I\'ll give you a chance to come out of your Tang coma for a minute and try to see the error of your ways.

Is that statement TRUE or FALSE? There is no in between. You have to look at that statement in the absolute. TRUE or FALSE?

GATORMAN RULES
 

Hurting my credibility? Funny stuff man. Exactly what does that mean WhoDat? And where do you rate your credibility? Who made you in charge of determing who is crediable? I thought no one is wrong on this board? Is that not what you went to great lengths to explain to me. Or, is everyone just wrong when they disagree with YOU? How\'s that for CREDIBILITY? ZIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG !!

You made the statement that drives are not drive stoppers and I told you they were. I never said or meant that they ALAWYS are. But, if that what it takes to make you feel like you are right. Knock yourself out. I wouldn\'t want you to lose credibility...

GATORMAN RULES
 

hypocrite

\\Hyp\"o*crite\\, n. [F., fr. L. hypocrita, Gr. ? one who plays a part on the stage, a dissembler, feigner. See Hypocrisy.] One who plays a part; especially, one who, for the purpose of winning approbation of favor, puts on a fair outside seeming; one who feigns to be other and better than he is; a false pretender to virtue or piety; one who simulates virtue or piety.

I was just picking with you JoeSam. I\'m really just trying to get under WhoDat\'s skin. You can never hope to win. Just anger the man. That\'s the best one can do.... ;)

GATORMAN RULES
 

There is no point to this going further.

I\'ll settle it now...

You are correct Billy, the earth is flat.

GATORMAN RULES
 

I know I\'m right LummOx. I can\'t remember when or if I ever thought I needed you to tell me if I was right. Let me think.................... NOPE !!

If your going to get in these things you should really try sticking to the facts and how \'bout posting what I really said and what WhoDat said, instead of what you preceive was said? Works much better that way. Do they not do that in Canada?

World flat? NOPE. Just your opinion on this thread is flat.... That\'s all !!

GATORMAN RULES
 

Just thought everyone who has worked so had to keep this fine thread going would like to know, Your hard work and diligence has paid off and this is the most replied to thread in the history of Black and Gold. A whopping 126 replys and counting keep up the good work.

However there is still work to be done this thread is some 540 views away from the top spot in that catagory.

GATORMAN RULES
 

Yeah !! But I fear this thread is leading some place none of us wants it to go. No offense WhoDat and LummOx for anything I said. All in fun. You guys are OK with me. Just remember I\'m in the minority here and it even took Martin Luther King a good while to be treated fairly. I HAVE A DREAM !!

Saintfan being gone is not good. What the hell went on here the past week? Did something get edited or deleted? In any event, we have a gang war going on here. The WhoTangs and well........... Me and saintfan. Whatever happened, y\'all need to be getting him back. Who\'s responsible?




[Edited on 4/12/2003 by BillyC]

GATORMAN RULES
 

That = surrender. I accept Billy your apology and unconditional surrender. Let\'s put it like this Billy. If this thread had been in court, you\'d not only have lost, you\'d be paying me punitive damages. Just ask Gator - he\'s the resident lawyer around here.

GATORMAN RULES
 

Somebody get that kid his meds before his head explodes.

I picture this gigantic head, swelling even more, as his voice pitch increases. To be so \"in your face\" with one of the most docile posters we have here...well...your not proving anything, really.

GATORMAN RULES
 

Yeah, I was a little out of line with LummOx. But argueing with WhoDat shortens my temper a little bit. My apologies LummOx. Now don\'t make me get out of line with you B&B. I can assure you that my head isn\'t about to explode....

That was only a joke B&B. :D

[Edited on 4/12/2003 by BillyC]

GATORMAN RULES
 

Billy, I wouldn\'t be so quick to blame the moderators for Saintfan leaving if he in fact did. If he left he left on his own accord. You are the one always spouting about look it up, maybe this time you should have looked it up before you place blame.

GATORMAN RULES
 

I find it very strange that two of my earlier posts in this thread before we got into it about turnovers, etc. were very welcomed by Billy and when I disagree with an issue I need to get \"my backwards Canuck a$$ straight\". I\'ll pass along the same message to you as I did to Saintsfan....I\'ll be sure to PM you before I post to authorize the content of my messages.

I say all this tongue in cheek as well Billy. No offense taken by me as well.

I\'d really like you to explain how you are right?
And just for your amusement I\'ll post actual statements made in your\'s and WhoDat\'s posts so that I\'m only posting... Billy-started the ball about penalties
WhoDat-started the ball about turnovers
Billy-quoted 2+ mistakes per individual
WhoDat-explains how turnovers unquestionably kill a drive
Billy-tries to convince us the the drive is over already at 1st and 30
WhoDat-tries again to explain that a turnover stops a drive and miscues that don\'t result in a turnover can be overcome
Billy-hits head hard on wall
WhoDat-calls you out for agreeing with my re-wording of his post
Saintsfan-gets involved in the thread (much later than I may I add) saying dropped passes, missed blocks and penalties are drive stoppers (not can be-but are)

WhoDat-tries to explain logic to Saintsfan
Lumm0x-tries to explain that a turnover is an unquestionable droive stopper, where the others are only possible drive stoppers
Billy-lacks ability to read
WhoDat- tries AGAIN
Billy-disagrees....while agreeing
Gator-tries as well
WhoDat-points out you have agreed with what was said all along
Billy-backpedals behind doubletalk
Lumm0x-tries again
Billy-shows how I am posting on a thread I haven\'t read yet
WhoDat- since Billy chose to take a quote as an absolute WhoDat made it one
Billy- Uses the same arguement to defend what he is attacking WhoDat over
Billy...I think you can agree I\'ve now read the thread.

You are attacking WhoDat for saying this:
You are inferring that he is making an absolute statement. You then said that they are drive stoppers, but suddenly never said they always are, and that we are inferring it.

Point-You are attacking a statement as being....not incorrect...but incomplete...and defending your position with a statement that is not incorrect....but incomplete. WhoDat, myself, Gator, etc...were trying to show that penalties, missed blocks and dropped passes are a grey area.....but turnovers are black. You\'re making it a black and white affair.

Billy-
I now have to pass a bylaw here in Canada that perception is a singular. There is only one way to percieve. Now I\'ll get my nose outta your business buddy.

GATORMAN RULES
 

Billy-Now I feel like dirt for that rant.

GATORMAN RULES
 

From lumm0x, to BillyC:

http://www.strike9.com/file.ashx?pat...ze%2fowned.bmp

:P

I know, man, you don\'t have to explain yourself to me. :cool:

[Edited on 4/12/2003 by BlackandBlue]

GATORMAN RULES
 

JoeSam,

I did not mean he left because of you. What I was asking was if him and another member got into and if the post got deleted because of foul launguage.

Everyone sure is sensetive here lately. Oh well........



[Edited on 4/12/2003 by BillyC]

GATORMAN RULES
 

LummOx --

The whole debate between WhoDat and myself started because he was telling me that Brooks was most to blame for the offensive short comings. I said that the other 10 players on offense collectively were more to blame than one man, even if it was the QB.

I tried to explain that penalties were killing a lot of drives and WhoDat told me that penalties aren\'t drive stoppers. I called him on that ONE statement and somewhere down the line he changed that ONE statement ever so carefully.

Going back to my orginal point, I believe that YES Aaron Brooks has contributed more than ANY one single player on offense for the lack of success, but that\'s because he has an opportunity to screw up every play. I don\'t want to make excuses for Brooks. All I was trying to say is that over the course of the SEASON, Brooks is not the main reason that for the problems on offense. I contend that penalties, dropped passes, and just plain lack of execution are the REAL problem. Not Brooks.

Now if y\'all want to believe WhoDat and say Brooks is more to blame than the other 10-guys on offense combined. I think all of you really need to examine the way you think.

WhoDat\'s arguement that Brooks is most to blame becuase he has more turnovers is foolish. That\'s like me saying Deuce is second to blame becuase he has the second most turnovers. See how that works?


[Edited on 4/12/2003 by BillyC]

GATORMAN RULES
 

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/11/10/Bu...ightmare.shtml



Those statements by Gruden prove that penalties are drive killers. Here\'s the part where WhoDat is specifically wrong. Here\'s the statement :

At a specific time? It doesn\'t matter if the penalty is on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down. If the penalty is too great for the offense to overcome, then it is a drive killer. Now, I ask anyone to challenge that? LummOx?

Let me explain this another way. It\'s fist and 10. We need 10-yards for a 1st down. The key thing here is we only need TEN yards. We get a holding call on first down and now it\'s 1st and 20. We get 9 yards on 1st down. Now it\'s 2nd and 11. We get 6 yards on 2nd down. Now that would have been enough yards for a fist down if not for the penalty. Now on 3rd down we get 2-yards. Drive is now dead. Why? Well, we picked up 10-yards on that drive but becuase we got the penalty it wasn\'t a first down. It\'s pretty cut and dry to me!!!!!!!!!

Which brings me back to my point. If the Saints keep putting themselves at a disadvantage with penalites, drives will keep being killed. Sure they will overcome SOME penalties, but more times than not the drives will be killed.









[Edited on 5/12/2003 by BillyC]

GATORMAN RULES
 

Billy, you are correct. But the one tiny word in that statement that means the entire arguement is A turnover does not offer an if. A penalty, missed block or, dropped pass, with the exception of 4th down still allows a \"possibility\" of continuing the drive, remote as it may be. On our own 10 yard line, if we throw a pick, the drive stops. If we drop a pass on 3rd and 10 and we have to punt, the drive stops.....but they get the ball around mid-field rather than our 10. The lesser of 2 evils. It stopped the drive, but any coach in the league would rather have a pass get called incomplete and allow a punt than ruled an interception.

No one was arguing the effect of the blocks, drops, and penalties. Brooks was used as an example in the thread, so now I\'ll choose Deuce.
If he fumbles twice in the game and Gandy takes two false starts, who caused a greater impact on the respective drives? That was the whole point.

GATORMAN RULES
 

LummOx,

The only problem I had with WhoDat is he was trying to say that over the course of the season that Brooks is most to blame. I do not beleive that. It\'s true in certain games but not most of the games. I contend that the other 10-guys have contributed MORE to the lack of success than Brooks has.

As far as what are drive killers. I know that WhoDat, you, and myself all know what drive killers are. Although I don\'t think WhoDat is giving enough credit to how penalties have really hurt this team.

When I say the other 10-guys. I\'m talking about the offense as a whole and not any one individual. It takes a collective effort and Brooks has made more mistake, but that\'s true of 99% of every offense if not 100%.

[Edited on 5/12/2003 by BillyC]

GATORMAN RULES
 

Wrong again. I never said \"over the course of the season\". I was talking about the EAGLES game. Now, if you want to get into a disucssion about the one person whose play has most negatively impacted the Saints on offense this season, it would be tough to call. Still, I would go with Brooks again. Only the center touches the ball as much as he does and I think Fontenot\'s play has been as consistent as ever. He\'s a rock in the middle. You know what you\'re going to get from him b/c he\'s done it the same way for over a decade.

Of course, even if his play was poor, Fontenot isn\'t a \"skill\" player. I won\'t even begin to imply that the line isn\'t extremely important, However, I believe that skill players impact a game more than linemen. Thus, the only guy who has had near the number of touches as Brooks is Deuce. How do you think those two compare?

Horn, Pathon, Stallworth... none of them is having a great year, no doubt, but with all their faults I personally cannot blame them as much as Brooks. Everytime I see him lpay I think of my old high school coach. He would say, \"Mistakes are OK, as long as they are aggressive and not mental. I\'ll never blame you for a physical letdown on a smart play. Make a dumb play, and we\'ve got problems.\"

Brooks makes dumb plays more than any other player on the TEAM. It\'s hard not to blame him.

The one thing I will say, is that I\'m glad everyone else here sees right through you Billy. I didn\'t even have to defend myself for the last two days. Lumm0x, BnB, Gator... they\'ve all jumped in to side with me in this debate. Thanks guys I appreciate it.

Now back to your normally scheduled programming:

Billy, you were about to tell us all about why Brooks isn\'t underperforming and hurting this team week in and week out and how we really have a chance at the Super Bowl if all of the no-talent bums around your boy AB would just step up and make a play every now and then... right?

GATORMAN RULES
 

WhoDat -- Since I have been a member of B&G you have done your level headed best to pin as much blame on Brooks as possible. Sure, you get around to talking about other things and try to place a little blame on other players. But for the most part you are, and will always be short sighted because of your dislike for Brooks and your undying love for Delhomme. You really need to get over it, but I understand.

An offense has 11-players and all you can do is point to ONE player (Brooks) and say he makes more mistakes than any ONE player on offense. I\'ll agree with you though WhoDat. But, that\'s true of just about every QB because they have more opportunities. Unlike you, I can see that offense is a total effort by all 11-players and I KNOW that just because the QB makes more mistakes than the other players, it does not mean he is the problem. Unless you are willing to concede that all QB\'s are the problem with the offense. Look at your boy Delhomme. He has more mistakes than Brooks and every player on his team. But of course you are such a HYPOCRITE you won\'t pin the samething on Delhomme. The fact is though that Delhomme pretty much SUCKS.

Would you agree that if you look at the other 10-players on offense as a group, that they have contributed more to the problems on offense than Brooks has? Or, do you want me and everyone elseto believe that because Brooks has more turnovers he is more to blame. You can\'t just compare Brooks to any ONE postion and say he is the BIGGEST problem. That\'s so short sighted.

Where do you stand WhoDat? Have the 10-other guys as a group held this offense back more than anything else? Or, does Brooks\' mistakes out weigh all 10-guys combined? If you say the other 10-guys have a greater impact than Brooks, then you need to quit being so damn short sighted and start placing some of the blame on them. Can you do that?

As a matter a fact I would like EVERYONE to weigh in on this question:

Is Brooks more to blame than all the other players on offense combined?

[Edited on 5/12/2003 by BillyC]