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Billy and I have recently been debating the things that stop drives. I said that turnovers and things like dropped passes or big penalties on third down are the only things that can really be classified as a drive-killer. In my opinion, you can't argue with a turnover, b/c you can't continue a drive if you don't have the ball. Everything else depends entirely on down and distance. Context matters. A false start on first and ten doesn't help a drive, but it doesn't kill it either.

Please take a look at this post and tell me if this is just pure comedy, or am I dillusional?

So please guys, b/c honestly, I am speechless, tell me who is right.

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So turnovers are the only thing that kill drives? Like I said, you could be right. If we are faced with 3rd and 30 and actually make 30-yard then you would be right. But, that\'s reaching a little bit there, WhoDat. Or shall I call you \"Stretch Armstrong?\"

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Billy - look again, and try to read and make your little chimp brain understand what I am saying. Turnovers, are the only things, that kill a drive WITHOUT ANY CONCERN FOR DOWN AND DISTANCE. We pick up first downs after having first and twenty a couple of times a game.

I\'m not even going to argue with you. I\'ll let the rest of the members of this board point out to you how completely and totally wrong you are. I just said things like penalties happen all the time and they don\'t kill drives and you said I was wrong. That is undoubtedly the flat out, no way around it, dumbest thing I have EVER heard a person who knows anything whatsoever about football say.

I\'ll bet you right now any amount of money that in the history of the NFL there are FAR more that 1,000 drives that resulted in scores in which there was a penalty, missed block, or dropped pass. If those things KILL a drive Billy, then how could that be? Want to make a bet? Just name the amount Billy. Name it. Please. It\'ll be the easiest money I\'ve ever made in my entire life.

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LOL... I\'m hurt.

Oh, you are changing your statement huh?

Here\'s what the original statement was !!

.

Fact of the matter is WhoDat is when the offense commits a penalty it kills drives more times than not. The only way that you are right would be if the offense is able to overcome those penalties, but statistically speaking they kill drives most of the time.

You see WhoDat, drives are killed you when don\'t pick up a first down and penalties contribute to not picking up first downs !! Get it? Probably not !!

Can I get a ruling?
 

OH MY GOD. Somebody else please chime in and HELP ME. This man is making me dumber by the minute.

A. Is this a true statement?

\"Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers.\"


So what you just said is that it does not ALWAYS kill a drive. So you\'ve just proven yourself wrong. Thanks Billy.

Really? Can I please see those statistics? Show them to me Billy. Is this something you\'ve seen or something you\'re making up? Don\'t answer, we all already know.

I\'ve decided to keep track of how many drives the Saints score on for the rest of the season that includes a penalty, missed block, or dropped pass. Billy care to wager what percentage that will be? I\'m guessing no. You talk real big for a guy with no stats and who isn\'t willing to put anything on the line. Here\'s a deal Billy. Let\'s not bet money. Let\'s say that the loser has to leave this board and NEVER come back. Wanna bet?

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i have to agree with whodat on this one, again

i totally agree with that statement 100%

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Let\'s stick to the facts here WhoDat--

You boldly said this --

I said you were WRONG because they CAN kill drives. Admit you are wrong already. No one is going to come running to your rescue, because you are WRONG !!

You COULD be right if every offense was able to overcome every penalty, but that\'s foolish to suggest that. THEY CAN KILL DRIVES...

Get it this time? NO? Didn\'t think so !!

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The force is strong in that one I tell you. Thanks Pak. Anyone else want to jump in? BnB? Joe? Tweeky? Saintfan? 08? BMG? D_It_Up? 5221? Nocloning? C\'mon. We need everyone to disagree with Billy before he can KNOW how right he is. (See Brooks debate).

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Pak you agree with that 100% do ya? Well, let\'s say that we are faced with a 3rd and 30 because of holding penalties and we don\'t pick up a first down. Would you say that is a drive killer or what you say the reason the drive was killed?

Can I get a ruling?
 

Billy and I have recently been debating the things that stop drives. I said that turnovers and things like dropped passes or big penalties on third down are the only things that can really be classified as a drive-killer. In my opinion, you can\'t argue with a turnover, b/c you can\'t continue a drive if you don\'t have the ball. Everything else depends entirely on down and distance. Context matters. A false start on first and ten doesn\'t help a drive, but it doesn\'t kill it either.

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A turnover is the ultimate drive killler . The drive stops and it is dead .

The arguement on penalties and dropped balls is all relative to the arm strength and accuracy of the quarterback .

1st and 20 for Elway in the day was no sweat .

1st and 20 for Wuerrfel is a hope and a prayer and a drive killer .

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Actually Billy, here is what I said:

\"Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers. That\'s like me saying that Brooks has 300 incompletions this season so obviously he\'s stopped more drives than the rest of the team combined. No, a dropped pass or a penalty is NOT a drive stopper unless it happens at a specific time. A couple of weeks back, Horn dropped a pass and Brooks went back to him the next play. We scored on that drive. Gardner\'s two drops on third down plays stop drives.

You see, when Brooks fumbles the ball and the other team recovers, the drive is over. A holding penalty on first and ten hurts, but doesn\'t necessarily end it. A holding call on 3rd and 8, or a dropped pass, well, those both pretty much end the drive.\"


Your Response:
\"quote:
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Billy, dropped passes, penalties, missed blocks, etc. happen all the time and they\'re not drive stoppers.
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Man this is like taking candy from a baby. So you\'re trying to tell me if we are faced with 1st and 20 because of a holding penalty that this isn\'t a drive killer? I suppose if we make 20-yards you would be correct. Hell, how \'bout first and 30? You make me laugh !! Actually I\'m sad -- For you -- I thought you understood the game of football better WhoDat. I was wrong again. \"



You classified EVERY dropped pass, missed block, or penalty as a DRIVE KILLER. That means the drive is OVER. If these CAN be overcome, then they\'re harmful, but not KILLERS. A false start on first down DOES NOT kill a drive. A dropped pass on 3rd down does. You said that is an incorrect statement. Members of this board will continue to side with me, and you probably still will not admit that you\'re wrong AGAIN. You\'ll try to slither out of your argument, twist it and turn it to make it look like that\'s not what you meant. In reality, it\'s EXACTLY what you meant, which shows me AGAIN that you are willing to argue anything, no matter how ridiculous, to prove AB is god.

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well it depends actually, if it was first down and we had 2 holding calls and then it was 1st n 30 then i would say that we have more of a chance continuing the drive then if it was 3rd n 30

the point whodat is trying to make is that if we get a penalty on first down it is easier to overcome then if we got one on 3rd down, i wouldnt not classify the penalty on first down a drive killer, i would classify the one on 3rd down as a drive killer b/c it is much harder to overcome b/c u have only one down left to pick up the yardage needed

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08 -- Man you kill me. I agree with that some QB\'s are more likely to overcome those penalties than others, but even Elway isn\'t gonna keep the drive alive in most of those situations. But that\'s who I\'d want trying to make it. But, you are right that penalties do kill drives......

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If you want to get technical then yeah, you always have a prayer of making some ridiculos down and distance situation, but that arguement is silly. Penalties kill drives and WhoDat is WRONG.

Ask any coach if penalties kill drives. I bet a can find articles where many coaches have said that. Wanna bet WhoDat?

Y\'all must be bored.

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Gator I agree with you 100%. Brooks has killed drives, no doubt. I\'d be a fool to say he hasn\'t.

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Again I agree with you 100%. I agree with you on Brooks too. I\'m kind of down of Brooks, but he\'s not in this mess alone. I thought that was a very well thoughtout post. I\'ll leave you alone now and let you post without me commenting on it...

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WhoDat/BnB....I got a new one for ya......no offense Billy....

http://atlantic.photoisland.com/sess...21864289lg.jpg

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There\'s no offense taken LummOx. I\'m not overly sensitive. But, WhoDat said I had a chimp brain and then the pix :mad: I got to go get a bannana --

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The drive killers are the predictable plays called by McCarthey and Brooks \"half second\" hesitation and accuracy. Dropped passes, fumbles and INT\'s are obvious gaffs that are brought about by the opposing D being perfictly aware of the upcoming play. We rarely fool the opposition. That puts our players under extra pressure to out play the guy in front of him. There must be some guile employed to improve the odds of the play called being successful. Then there must be precise execution. All a coaches responsibility. Peroid.

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The whole reason this debate started between myself and WhoDat is he was trying to tell me that Brooks was to blame for the offensive not being productive. I on the other hand was trying to look at other reasons why the offense was struggling.

What\'s funny is that people often complain that Brooks is debated on this board too much. But, it certainly isn\'t me that starts post after post about Brooks. I bring up things like penalties killing drives, or dropped passes, or inconsistant pass blocking, or play calling, or anything other than Brooks and certain members always want to dismiss these things and say \" Yeah, but Brooks is most to blame.\"

Is Brooks most to blame for the offensive troubles? That\'s a fair question and one that many members have stated as fact. Let\'s look at that question. I\'m going to state nothing but the facts here.

2003 Aaron Brooks 59.2/ 2352/ 14/ 8 Fumbles = 9
2003 Jake Delhomme 57.0 /2163/ 11/ 11 Fumbles = 9
2003 Mark Bulger 63.2/ 2765/ 15/ 17 Fumbles = 5
2003 Tom Brady 58.6 /2651/13 /10 Fumbles = 10

Aaron Brooks has 8ints and 9 fumbles for a total of 17
Jake Delmomme has 11ints and 9 fumbles for a total of 20
Mark Bulger has 17ints and 5 fumbles for a total of 22
Tom Brady has 13ints and 10 fumbles for a total of 23

As you can see every QB on that list has a winning record but Aaron Brooks. Why is that? How is Aaron Brooks most to blame? WhoDat said because Brooks turns the ball over too much is the main reason we are losing. If it were that simple wouldn\'t all these QB\'s have losing record too?

What I\'ve been trying to say is we have many more problems than Aaron Brooks and he is not the main reason this team is struggling. He is part of it though.

WhoDat -- Would you like to explain to me how Brooks is stalling this offense and making this team lose? And then explain to me how the other QB\'s are not having the same effect on their teams? Brooks has less total int\'s and fumbles than the other QB\'s, so exactly how to you explain that? His completion percentage is right up there or better than the other QB\'s, so that can\'t be stalling drives. He\'s thown for more touchdowns than most of those QB\'s, so that can\'t be it. He\'s thrown for less interceptions than the rest of those QB\'s, so that can\'t be it. What were you trying to tell me again?











[Edited on 27/11/2003 by BillyC]

Can I get a ruling?
 

Oh and Brooks is to blame for Louisiana\'s budget deficiet too. :cool:

Can I get a ruling?
 

WhoDat -- Would you like to explain to me how Brooks is stalling this offense and making this team lose?

I am not Whodat , but I will try .

Brooks inability to throw a pass other then a rocket strike , narrows the offensive options on a particular play . Kind of like a runningback that can only run to the right side of the line . If the defense is defending the rocket strike routes and Brooks is unable to throw to a touch pass route then his limitations are handicapping the offense and are stalling it .

Can I get a ruling?
 

WhoDat -- Would you like to explain to me how Brooks is stalling this offense and making this team lose?


Billy, it\'s very very simple. Go look at the stats from the Philly game. Now, tell me, how many points came off of Brooks turnovers? Answer: 14.

Subtract 14 from the Eagles score and you get 19... didn\'t the Saints have 20 Billy?

Add 7 to the Saints score b/c Brooks fumbled on the 1 yard line on a play where Deuce was so well blocked for that DEUCE was able to dive into the endzone and almost recover the ball. That give the Saints 27. 27-19. There\'s your answer Billy.

Yes, our defense did not play well, but I certainly didn\'t expect much more than what I saw. You expected them to be a top ten defense by year end, so that shows your ability to judge talent and evaluate what you see on the field. In any case, When a team has 500 yards in offense, they rarely lose. You don\'t move the ball like we did on Philly and lose often. The reason is usually b/c you don\'t convert - and when you don\'t convert the culprit is almost always turnovers. Who had the most and most critical turnovers for the Saints on Sunday Billy?