Hartley screwed up in the beginning. Second year kicker. It sucked that we lost the games we did, but he pulled it together as the year progressed. If SP has faith, then who am I to doubt SP? It's not my checkbook afterall and really easy to sit here and say what he should have done. Now don't let me down Hartley!

Five years is a long time. However, contracts aren't worth the paper that they are written on.

I am convinced working with a new holder had something to do with it.

Garrett Hartley's new five-year deal with the Saints has a $10.3 million base value, with roughly $3 million guaranteed.

There's another $2.7M in incentives. Hartley has a great leg when his mind is right, but his biggest plus has always been Sean Payton's support. In a dome and high-flying offense, he'll remain an elite fantasy kicker in 2011. And Hartley now has job security, the lack of which made him risky in previous years.

That's what's rubbing me raw. Moore needs to get locked up long term so Brees has a possession guy he can count on. Maybe Moore pisses on the floor in the locker room or something. The one year tenders for him or just sick.

I agree. Moore reproved, if you will, his talent and dedication to this team, Hartley helped cost us the division. Hartley should be a great kicker in years to come, assuming he modifies his work ethic. He has all the leg to be successful. I really hope we manage to secure Moore to something more longterm.

I for one, am happy to see Hartley back for another 5 years. I have faith he will shake off the second year slump and come back better than ever in 2011.

If you are wondering why solid, reliable kickers like Mare can come to New Orleans, look like garbage, and then he goes to Seattle and suddenly looks great again, it's called SPECIAL TEAMS COACHING. Same reason Carney and Hartley and ALL of our special teams units, have looked alternately great and alternately terrible ever since McMahon got here. Our special teams coach is a tinkerer -- he tinkers with this, tinkers with that, let's change this, let's fix that, no let's try it this other way instead -- and consistency, reliability or preparation is just not part of his game plan. He tinkers with one thing, and something else breaks. Fixes that, and something else goes wrong. Rolls in on Sunday with his units totally unprepared for that week's game. He is friends with Payton, though.

I actually like Hartley. I think he's a head case, but I think a lot of the kicks that both he and Carney missed, there were LOTS of other things that looked bad about those particular plays, blocking, timing, etc. The whole special teams process on kicks, always looked kinda sloppy, all year, instead of crisp and tight like other teams. And that's coaching.

So, how many years experience do you have as a Special Teams coach or are you speaking with zero personal experience?