Penalties v. Turnovers (gotta see this)

WhoDat · 12-07-2003, 10:21 PM

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I looked up the stats on TEAM penalties and turnovers. I think you will find these stats very interesting, and I can't wait to hear what Billy has to say about this. The team penalties are ranked in descending order, meaning the teams at the top are the most penalized. The turnover numbers are ranked by turnover differential with the #1 team having the BEST takeaway ratio in the league. Here ya go:

Penalties
------------------
1. Minnesota
2. Indianapolis
3. Kansas City
4. Seattle
5. St. Louis
6. Green Bay
7. Cincinnati
8. New York (N)
9. New Orleans
10. Tennessee
11. Tampa Bay
12. Denver
13. San Francisco
14. Carolina
15. Dallas
16. New England
17. Jacksonville
18. New York (A)
19. Oakland
20. San Diego
21. Washington
22. Baltimore
23. Pittsburgh
24. Philadelphia
25. Houston
26. Miami
27. Arizona
28. Buffalo
29. Cleveland
30. Atlanta
31. Detroit
32. Chicago

Turnovers
-----------------
1. Kansas City
2. Tennessee
3. San Francisco
4. New England
5. Seattle
6. Minnesota
7. Indianapolis
8. Tampa Bay
9. Miami
10. Cincinnati
11. Washington
12. New York (A)
13. St. Louis
14. Oakland
15. Philadelphia
16. Denver
17. Houston
18. Baltimore
19. Detroit
20. Chicago
21. San Diego
22. Dallas
23. New Orleans
24. Atlanta
25. Jacksonville
26. Pittsburgh
27. Cleveland
28. Carolina
29. New York (N)
30. Buffalo
31. Green Bay
32. Arizona

Just in case you missed it, here's what I see:

If you count the Saints and Giants out of the playoffs, then EIGHT of the top TEN most penalized teams are playoff teams (or at least in the hunt and fighting with ALL 10 having a mathematical shot). There are only THREE teams in the ten least penalized group competing for the playoffs, with ZERO in the bottom six. All of the six most penalized teams are competing for a playoff spot.

Things flop when you look at turnovers. EIGHT of the TEN teams with the BEST giveaway/takeaway ratio are competing for the playoffs. Only THREE of the bottom TEN teams (teams who have negative turnover ratios) are competing for the playoffs.

Looks to me like it is MUCH better to be highly penalized then it is to turn the ball over a lot. Billy, care to change your previous comments?

PS - the Saints are 23rd in the league in turnovers. (And these stats did not take into account week 14 games - all team stats are representative of teams after 12 games played.)

BillyC · 12-07-2003, 10:25 PM

There you go spinning things again. Any idiot knows that turnovers are much worse than penalties. Turnovers are the most important stat or all. All I ever said is that penalties are drive killers. Not always, but often they kill drives.

What exactly are you trying to prove?

BillyC · 12-07-2003, 10:32 PM

WhoDat -- Your list is wrong there BUDDY. Try this list from NFL.COM. Teams at the top are the most penalyzed.

Team G Plys Yds/G Y/P FD/G 3rd Md 3rd Att 3rd % 4th Md 4th Att 4th % Pen PenYds TOP TF L
Oakland 12 748 309.0 5.0 17.2 54 160 33.8 12 18 66.7 112 937 28:09 17 10
Minnesota 12 770 385.4 6.0 20.4 72 159 45.3 6 14 42.9 102 809 31:51 21 10
New York (N) 12 815 341.1 5.0 20.4 59 164 36.0 0 10 0 101 885 28:47 28 13
Baltimore 12 756 301.6 4.8 16.0 56 170 32.9 5 8 62.5 101 799 29:45 28 15
Washington 12 765 305.3 4.8 17.8 57 167 34.1 6 10 60.0 98 840 29:05 17 9
San Diego 12 701 307.2 5.3 17.4 41 141 29.1 7 13 53.8 97 792 26:55 13 7
New England 12 787 326.9 5.0 18.7 60 169 35.5 3 9 33.3 96 864 30:37 21 8
Tampa Bay 12 773 335.6 5.2 18.8 56 165 33.9 4 8 50.0 94 917 31:31 20 9
Pittsburgh 12 765 300.6 4.7 17.3 61 170 35.9 8 15 53.3 92 837 30:12 17 8
Houston 12 708 295.4 5.0 16.6 53 158 33.5 9 14 64.3 89 698 29:01 12 6
Carolina 12 757 331.4 5.3 18.1 57 165 34.5 6 9 66.7 88 739 30:22 26 11
Arizona 12 713 287.1 4.8 15.2 63 161 39.1 4 13 30.8 85 663 28:56 19 11
Tennessee 12 746 335.6 5.4 18.6 67 162 41.4 5 11 45.5 84 660 32:53 17 7
Buffalo 12 740 284.8 4.6 17.4 50 159 31.4 9 18 50.0 83 723 30:30 25 10
New Orleans 12 766 338.8 5.3 18.9 79 171 46.2 4 14 28.6 81 689 30:35 26 15
Detroit 12 737 267.0 4.3 15.4 60 174 34.5 4 13 30.8 81 651 28:22 14 2
Cincinnati 12 798 342.6 5.2 20.0 81 175 46.3 3 8 37.5 80 639 31:39 11 4
San Francisco 12 774 332.1 5.1 18.0 64 166 38.6 5 15 33.3 78 588 30:58 16 5
Dallas 12 796 327.7 4.9 18.3 67 181 37.0 4 10 40.0 77 686 32:12 19 7
Jacksonville 12 769 326.7 5.1 18.5 56 159 35.2 9 20 45.0 77 648 29:53 23 13
Denver 12 775 332.7 5.2 20.1 56 158 35.4 2 9 22.2 77 652 32:46 19 5
Philadelphia 12 718 300.5 5.0 18.1 53 149 35.6 1 4 25.0 75 649 28:32 18 10
Miami 12 722 292.6 4.9 17.2 51 148 34.5 2 4 50.0 75 676 29:32 20 13
Cleveland 12 737 277.5 4.5 17.8 61 158 38.6 5 12 41.7 73 610 30:41 24 10
Chicago 12 742 266.9 4.3 16.2 55 165 33.3 11 14 78.6 71 620 30:18 19 6
Atlanta 12 682 267.7 4.7 14.9 39 144 27.1 4 6 66.7 69 603 26:51 16 7
St. Louis 12 792 354.0 5.4 21.7 64 157 40.8 5 11 45.5 67 502 31:45 26 14
Seattle 12 769 355.8 5.6 21.2 76 158 48.1 2 6 33.3 66 601 29:07 19 9
Indianapolis 12 793 372.3 5.6 21.8 71 167 42.5 10 13 76.9 65 437 31:22 18 7
Kansas City 12 748 361.2 5.8 20.7 62 157 39.5 3 4 75.0 60 524 29:28 8 4
Green Bay 12 742 351.3 5.7 20.2 60 148 40.5 4 5 80.0 57 447 30:26 18 11
New York (A) 12 685 317.6 5.6 17.0 53 145 36.6 5 11 45.5 51 391 27:04 13 5

WhoDat · 12-07-2003, 10:39 PM

Tthose were most penalized OFFENSES.

That proves the point even more. Turnovers hurt the offense far more than penalties. Kind of makes your defense of Brooks\' turnovers look really thin huh?

Man, how many times am I going to have to prove you wrong before you learn?

[Edited on 8/12/2003 by WhoDat]

BillyC · 12-07-2003, 10:40 PM

St. Louis
Seattle
Indianapolis
Kansas City
Green Bay

Here are 5 of teams with the least penalties. They are also the top offenses in the league. Quit making yourself look foolish WhoDat. Do you even watch football?

WhoDat · 12-07-2003, 10:51 PM

You know what Billy - lets assume your numbers are right for a second. The Saints rank in the middle of the league in penalties according to your numbers, but in the bottom in turnovers. So turnovers hurt more. You\'re still wrong. Any way you slice it Billy you still lose. Hilarious.

BillyC · 12-07-2003, 10:55 PM

You know what Billy - lets assume your numbers are right for a second. The Saints rank in the middle of the league in penalties according to your numbers, but in the bottom in turnovers. So turnovers hurt more. You\'re still wrong. Any way you slice it Billy you still lose. Hilarious.

Let\'s think about that for a minute. First I never said that penalties are worse than turnovers. It would take a fool to beleive that. But nice try. I guess is not beneath you. Show me where I EVER said that.

I did say that penalties hurt offenses and offenses with fewer peanalties were way more successful. Here\'s the proof:

St. Louis
Seattle
Indianapolis
Kansas City
Green Bay

Is this just pure luck that all the succesful offenses in the league are the least penalyzed? I win. Quit trying.

[Edited on 8/12/2003 by BillyC]

[Edited on 8/12/2003 by JOESAM2002]

12-07-2003, 10:21 PM	#1
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Penalties v. Turnovers (gotta see this) Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I looked up the stats on TEAM penalties and turnovers. I think you will find these stats very interesting, and I can't wait to hear what Billy has to say about this. The team penalties are ranked in descending order, meaning the teams at the top are the most penalized. The turnover numbers are ranked by turnover differential with the #1 team having the BEST takeaway ratio in the league. Here ya go: Penalties ------------------ 1. Minnesota 2. Indianapolis 3. Kansas City 4. Seattle 5. St. Louis 6. Green Bay 7. Cincinnati 8. New York (N) 9. New Orleans 10. Tennessee 11. Tampa Bay 12. Denver 13. San Francisco 14. Carolina 15. Dallas 16. New England 17. Jacksonville 18. New York (A) 19. Oakland 20. San Diego 21. Washington 22. Baltimore 23. Pittsburgh 24. Philadelphia 25. Houston 26. Miami 27. Arizona 28. Buffalo 29. Cleveland 30. Atlanta 31. Detroit 32. Chicago Turnovers ----------------- 1. Kansas City 2. Tennessee 3. San Francisco 4. New England 5. Seattle 6. Minnesota 7. Indianapolis 8. Tampa Bay 9. Miami 10. Cincinnati 11. Washington 12. New York (A) 13. St. Louis 14. Oakland 15. Philadelphia 16. Denver 17. Houston 18. Baltimore 19. Detroit 20. Chicago 21. San Diego 22. Dallas 23. New Orleans 24. Atlanta 25. Jacksonville 26. Pittsburgh 27. Cleveland 28. Carolina 29. New York (N) 30. Buffalo 31. Green Bay 32. Arizona Just in case you missed it, here's what I see: If you count the Saints and Giants out of the playoffs, then EIGHT of the top TEN most penalized teams are playoff teams (or at least in the hunt and fighting with ALL 10 having a mathematical shot). There are only THREE teams in the ten least penalized group competing for the playoffs, with ZERO in the bottom six. All of the six most penalized teams are competing for a playoff spot. Things flop when you look at turnovers. EIGHT of the TEN teams with the BEST giveaway/takeaway ratio are competing for the playoffs. Only THREE of the bottom TEN teams (teams who have negative turnover ratios) are competing for the playoffs. Looks to me like it is MUCH better to be highly penalized then it is to turn the ball over a lot. Billy, care to change your previous comments? PS - the Saints are 23rd in the league in turnovers. (And these stats did not take into account week 14 games - all team stats are representative of teams after 12 games played.)
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

12-07-2003, 10:25 PM	#2
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Penalties v. Turnovers (gotta see this) There you go spinning things again. Any idiot knows that turnovers are much worse than penalties. Turnovers are the most important stat or all. All I ever said is that penalties are drive killers. Not always, but often they kill drives. What exactly are you trying to prove?
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-07-2003, 10:32 PM	#3
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Penalties v. Turnovers (gotta see this) WhoDat -- Your list is wrong there BUDDY. Try this list from NFL.COM. Teams at the top are the most penalyzed. Team G Plys Yds/G Y/P FD/G 3rd Md 3rd Att 3rd % 4th Md 4th Att 4th % Pen PenYds TOP TF L Oakland 12 748 309.0 5.0 17.2 54 160 33.8 12 18 66.7 112 937 28:09 17 10 Minnesota 12 770 385.4 6.0 20.4 72 159 45.3 6 14 42.9 102 809 31:51 21 10 New York (N) 12 815 341.1 5.0 20.4 59 164 36.0 0 10 0 101 885 28:47 28 13 Baltimore 12 756 301.6 4.8 16.0 56 170 32.9 5 8 62.5 101 799 29:45 28 15 Washington 12 765 305.3 4.8 17.8 57 167 34.1 6 10 60.0 98 840 29:05 17 9 San Diego 12 701 307.2 5.3 17.4 41 141 29.1 7 13 53.8 97 792 26:55 13 7 New England 12 787 326.9 5.0 18.7 60 169 35.5 3 9 33.3 96 864 30:37 21 8 Tampa Bay 12 773 335.6 5.2 18.8 56 165 33.9 4 8 50.0 94 917 31:31 20 9 Pittsburgh 12 765 300.6 4.7 17.3 61 170 35.9 8 15 53.3 92 837 30:12 17 8 Houston 12 708 295.4 5.0 16.6 53 158 33.5 9 14 64.3 89 698 29:01 12 6 Carolina 12 757 331.4 5.3 18.1 57 165 34.5 6 9 66.7 88 739 30:22 26 11 Arizona 12 713 287.1 4.8 15.2 63 161 39.1 4 13 30.8 85 663 28:56 19 11 Tennessee 12 746 335.6 5.4 18.6 67 162 41.4 5 11 45.5 84 660 32:53 17 7 Buffalo 12 740 284.8 4.6 17.4 50 159 31.4 9 18 50.0 83 723 30:30 25 10 New Orleans 12 766 338.8 5.3 18.9 79 171 46.2 4 14 28.6 81 689 30:35 26 15 Detroit 12 737 267.0 4.3 15.4 60 174 34.5 4 13 30.8 81 651 28:22 14 2 Cincinnati 12 798 342.6 5.2 20.0 81 175 46.3 3 8 37.5 80 639 31:39 11 4 San Francisco 12 774 332.1 5.1 18.0 64 166 38.6 5 15 33.3 78 588 30:58 16 5 Dallas 12 796 327.7 4.9 18.3 67 181 37.0 4 10 40.0 77 686 32:12 19 7 Jacksonville 12 769 326.7 5.1 18.5 56 159 35.2 9 20 45.0 77 648 29:53 23 13 Denver 12 775 332.7 5.2 20.1 56 158 35.4 2 9 22.2 77 652 32:46 19 5 Philadelphia 12 718 300.5 5.0 18.1 53 149 35.6 1 4 25.0 75 649 28:32 18 10 Miami 12 722 292.6 4.9 17.2 51 148 34.5 2 4 50.0 75 676 29:32 20 13 Cleveland 12 737 277.5 4.5 17.8 61 158 38.6 5 12 41.7 73 610 30:41 24 10 Chicago 12 742 266.9 4.3 16.2 55 165 33.3 11 14 78.6 71 620 30:18 19 6 Atlanta 12 682 267.7 4.7 14.9 39 144 27.1 4 6 66.7 69 603 26:51 16 7 St. Louis 12 792 354.0 5.4 21.7 64 157 40.8 5 11 45.5 67 502 31:45 26 14 Seattle 12 769 355.8 5.6 21.2 76 158 48.1 2 6 33.3 66 601 29:07 19 9 Indianapolis 12 793 372.3 5.6 21.8 71 167 42.5 10 13 76.9 65 437 31:22 18 7 Kansas City 12 748 361.2 5.8 20.7 62 157 39.5 3 4 75.0 60 524 29:28 8 4 Green Bay 12 742 351.3 5.7 20.2 60 148 40.5 4 5 80.0 57 447 30:26 18 11 New York (A) 12 685 317.6 5.6 17.0 53 145 36.6 5 11 45.5 51 391 27:04 13 5
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-07-2003, 10:39 PM	#4
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Penalties v. Turnovers (gotta see this) Tthose were most penalized OFFENSES. That proves the point even more. Turnovers hurt the offense far more than penalties. Kind of makes your defense of Brooks\' turnovers look really thin huh? Man, how many times am I going to have to prove you wrong before you learn? [Edited on 8/12/2003 by WhoDat]
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

12-07-2003, 10:40 PM	#5
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Penalties v. Turnovers (gotta see this) St. Louis Seattle Indianapolis Kansas City Green Bay Here are 5 of teams with the least penalties. They are also the top offenses in the league. Quit making yourself look foolish WhoDat. Do you even watch football?
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

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12-07-2003, 10:51 PM	#6
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Penalties v. Turnovers (gotta see this) You know what Billy - lets assume your numbers are right for a second. The Saints rank in the middle of the league in penalties according to your numbers, but in the bottom in turnovers. So turnovers hurt more. You\'re still wrong. Any way you slice it Billy you still lose. Hilarious.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

12-07-2003, 10:55 PM	#7
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	Penalties v. Turnovers (gotta see this) You know what Billy - lets assume your numbers are right for a second. The Saints rank in the middle of the league in penalties according to your numbers, but in the bottom in turnovers. So turnovers hurt more. You\'re still wrong. Any way you slice it Billy you still lose. Hilarious. Let\'s think about that for a minute. First I never said that penalties are worse than turnovers. It would take a fool to beleive that. But nice try. I guess is not beneath you. Show me where I EVER said that. I did say that penalties hurt offenses and offenses with fewer peanalties were way more successful. Here\'s the proof: St. Louis Seattle Indianapolis Kansas City Green Bay Is this just pure luck that all the succesful offenses in the league are the least penalyzed? I win. Quit trying. [Edited on 8/12/2003 by BillyC] [Edited on 8/12/2003 by JOESAM2002]
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842