Putting the Brooks myth to rest

saintz08 · 01-04-2004, 04:21 PM

Now that the year has come and gone again and the Saints only activity towards the playoffs , is sitting in the Big Easy chair and watching them on television , let's take a look at the recent myth that Brooks has been held down or hampered by the record setting amount of dropped balls in New Orleans .

Incomparison to other teams in the N.F.L.

Rank Team Drops

1 Det 51
2 Sea 41
3 KC 40
4 Atl 37
5 Oak 34
6 Was 34
7 Ind 33
8 SD 33
9 Bal 33
10 Pit 32
11 Dal 32
12 NYG 32
13 Phi 31
14 Hou 28
15 Ari 28
16 Ten 27
17 Chi 27
18 NE 26
19 Jac 26
20 NO 26
21 Car 24
22 NYJ 23
23 SF 23
24 TB 22
25 Den 21
26 Min 21
27 Cin 20
28 Cle 20
29 Buf 19
30 Mia 19
31 GB 19
32 StL 19

So lets see, 12 teams will play for the right to play in the Super Bowl .

Of those teams 8 teams had more drops then the Saints . Only 4 teams had fewer drops then the Saints and are in the play offs .

3 0f the 4 teams that earned a first round bye , had more drops then the Saints . :hallucine:

For those keeping Saints back up quarterback stats , Both Delhomme and Bulger had fewer drops .... :o

JKool · 01-04-2004, 07:16 PM

Ok, I\'ll bite.

It is not the number of drops alone that matter, it is when and where they happen.

Furthermore, an aggregate drop stat is somewhat useless unless you know how many passes were thrown. That is, if one ball is dropped for every 10 passes, that is better than one ball dropped for every 3 passes - but I\'m certain I\'m not stunning anyone with this observation. Thus the simple number of drops is not particularly perspicuous in demonstrating what hurt the QB.

I hope that gets the ball rolling on this one.

Cheers.

Danno · 01-04-2004, 07:24 PM

08. if you think Aaron Brooks is the reason we didn\'t make the playoffs you\'re sadly mistaken. This team has so many problems that blaming this year on Brooks is unfair. He\'s one of the few on this team that didn\'t underachieve this year. On a list of problems, he\'s way down the list...
1. Bad play calling/game planning by the OC.
2. Massive injuries, first on the D then the O.
3. A head coach that tolerates \"me\" players.
4. A fullback that can\'t catch or run
5. A special teams returner that runs due east or west.
6. A defensive line that couldn\'t play the run
7. A special team\'s unit that regressed in a major way.
8. Sloppy tackling by SEVERAL players (not jus TJ).
9. An all-pro RB that got very little rest during the season.
10. Players more interested in TD stunts than playing football
11. A WR that rarely plays because he felt a twitch in his hammy
12. An aging kicker who\'s losing his leg.
13. A QB that fumbles at crucial times.
and finally...
13. Disgruntled cry-baby fans that are still vocally bitter about the local boy not getting his shot.

saintz08 · 01-04-2004, 10:45 PM

Furthermore, an aggregate drop stat is somewhat useless unless you know how many passes were thrown.

Fair enough

Rank Team Drops / attempts

2 Sea 41 / 521
3 KC 40 / 536
7 Ind 33 / 569
9 Bal 33 / 415
11 Dal 32 / 510
13 Phi 31 / 484
16 Ten 27 / 502
18 NE 26 / 537
20 NO 26 / 535
21 Car 24 / 460
25 Den 21 / 479
31 GB 19 / 473
32 StL 19 / 600

So lets only use teams with similar passing attempts for our comparison . All of the following teams made the play offs with about the same average of attempts and all had more dropped passes then Brooks .

New England / 537
Seattle / 521
Indy / 569
New Orleans / 535
Kansas City / 536

Now lets filter it by defensive performance , and because this is by actual defensive performance , there in no whining about injuries , that is potential after the fact .

Defensive average per game

New England / 292
Seattle / 328
Indy / 300
New Orleans / 327
Kansas City / 357

Now lets filter Rushing

New England / 1607
Seattle / 2009
Indy / 1695
New Orleans / 2000
Kansas City / 1929

Now for the final stat , we will go with the 4 teams closest in totals . All of the following teams had more dropped passes then Brooks , similar defensive yardage allowed , similar pass attempts and similar season rushing totals .

Yet only one is not in the Play offs , lets see .

Seattle - pass completion percentage 60.8
Indy - pass completion percentage 67.0
Kansas City - pass completion percentage 63.2
New Orleans - pass completion percentage 58.7

08. if you think Aaron Brooks is the reason we didn\'t make the playoffs you\'re sadly mistaken. This team has so many problems that blaming this year on Brooks is unfair. He\'s one of the few on this team that didn\'t underachieve this year. On a list of problems, he\'s way down the list...

Is that by your standard or by what it takes to make the play offs ???

JKool · 01-05-2004, 03:20 AM

Gator, I couldn\'t agree more.

08, I have to profess some misunderstanding. I\'m not sure what the conclusion is now. Is it this, several teams have more drops, about the same defense, about the same rushing offense, but they still made the playoffs? Therefore, due to the parity in all of these stats, it must be Brooks\' fault we didn\'t make the playoffs - becuase he is the only other factor in wins/losses?

If that is what you are saying, and no one should hold you accountable for what might be a very bad interpretation on my behalf, then I don\'t think that your conclusion follows just yet. There are obviously many other factors that contribute to wins/losses over and above QB, Total D, and Total Rushing per game. Some obvious things come to mind, special teams, refs, goal-line defense, and timing of big plays (including fumbles and interceptions) - I\'m sure the list goes on. Thus, even though you have brought up some good stuff, but I\'m not sure it should be convincing.

WhoDat · 01-05-2004, 10:20 AM

\"PLAYOFFS NEXT YEAR OR YOUR OUT HAZLETT!!\"

That\'s funny Gator, you said that before this year too. Shall I go find the \"NO EXCUSES\" thread from this preseason to prove it?

I don\'t mean to pick on Gator at all. I\'m just using his words to prove a point. When will the fans of this team actually get enough backbone to support their statements and demand better play? We all knock Benson, but are we any different? I was about the ONLY guy calling for Haslett\'s head at the end of last season. I was one of a few talking about \"no excuses\" this preseason (Gator was one of those guys too - to his credit), and now, after the third straight disappointing season, everyone is talking about Haslett being the problem...

Yet, in typical Saints (and Saints fan) style, everyone is saying \"next year\". Next year is the year he better prove it. Next year is the they better make the playoffs. No, sorry guys, that was this year. Stand up and say that Haslett should be gone already.

I mean, what if they do make the playoffs next season. Who here thinks it will be because of Haslett? Not me. So if he makes the playoffs next year, what about the year after? Does he get three more years of underacheiving? Sorry boys, Haslett has proven his worth to me in four years here, and let me tell you, it ain\'t much.

And I don\'t want to hear about rebuilding years. A new coach does NOT mean a subpar season. Just look at Parcells, or, if you prefer, try to thin kback and remember what JIM HASLETT did in his first year as the head coach of this team. There are only four questions I have to ask myself:

1. Can this team play up to or above its potential with Haslett as the coach?
2. Can they win a Super Bowl with Haslett?
3. Does a coaching change mean they have no shot at the playoffs next year?
4. Does a coaching change give new hope to the players and fans for the future?

If you answered \"no\" to the first three, and \"yes\" to number 4, you\'re with me, so start standing up and saying it. I don\'t want to hear any more of this \"next year\" garbage anymore.

saintz08 · 01-07-2004, 09:56 AM

Here Saintsfan , come sink your teeth into some tender vittles ..... :P

BlackandBlue · 01-07-2004, 10:16 AM

I listened to the \"state of the union\" address from Parcells on the Cowboys yesterday, and he said something that struck me. I think we can all agree that Parcells knows a little something about the game of football. The two quotes that really struck me was:

\"With the exception of deep snapper, if I am able to upgrade any position on this team within reason, I will.\"
\"In this league, the less reliant you are on your quarterback to win games for you, the better your team is.\"

It may sound as if he will be replacing Quincy at the QB position, but he stressed that Quincy is his starting QB right now. He didn\'t, however, rule out replacing anyone on that team. And I think that is a more realistic way to view your team. If you have the best, or the best of the best, then there isn\'t an upgrade. And while Roy Williams is pound for pound the best player on the Cowboys, he is not elite, even though he is approaching that very fast, and if an opportunity comes along to upgrade that position at a reasonable deal, he would not rule out making that deal. Do I see Roy Williams and Flozell Adams starting for the Cowboys next year, yes, but you\'ve got to always keep in mind that you want what is best for the team, not the individual.

saintz08 · 01-07-2004, 12:16 PM

One thing that I must admit about Mueller that I thought was great was that he constantly combed the waiver wire looking for the 30 - 50 players .

Those players on the second and third teams , they were not safe under the Mueller regime and had to prove their own each and every day and that aspect of the team always filters up .

Competition in the ranks is a good thing in the N.F.L. , it keeps the starters focused on getting better and less likely to take a play or a day off .... This is something that has been lacking in New Orleans since Mueller has left .

ScottyRo · 01-07-2004, 01:07 PM

\"PLAYOFFS NEXT YEAR OR YOUR OUT HAZLETT!!\"

I have to admit that for whatever reason I root for Haslet to be successful. Not only because he is Saints HC, but because he has that fiery demeanor I enjoy of HC\'s in general.

But most of this season I had as part of my sig \"Dennis Green for HC/GM.\" Even so, I have to admit that I don\'t see Benson replacing Haslet even if the Saints miss the playoffs next year unless Jim has someplace to go.

From what I understand, Haslet still has 3 years left on his contract at around 3 mil per season. Does anyone really think Benson is going to fire a coach that he\'ll owe so much while the State of Louisiana is having to pay Benson to keep the team \"financially viable\"? Not to mention the newly elected Govenor is soon to take office and we have no real idea of whther she is in favor of supporting the Saints to the same degree as Foster.

Benson is not going to cut his throat with the State by throwing away good money by firing Haslet when he can simply keep Haslet and thereby keeping the State happy and keeping us fans thinking \"next year!\"

01-04-2004, 04:21 PM	#1
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Putting the Brooks myth to rest Now that the year has come and gone again and the Saints only activity towards the playoffs , is sitting in the Big Easy chair and watching them on television , let's take a look at the recent myth that Brooks has been held down or hampered by the record setting amount of dropped balls in New Orleans . Incomparison to other teams in the N.F.L. Rank Team Drops 1 Det 51 2 Sea 41 3 KC 40 4 Atl 37 5 Oak 34 6 Was 34 7 Ind 33 8 SD 33 9 Bal 33 10 Pit 32 11 Dal 32 12 NYG 32 13 Phi 31 14 Hou 28 15 Ari 28 16 Ten 27 17 Chi 27 18 NE 26 19 Jac 26 20 NO 26 21 Car 24 22 NYJ 23 23 SF 23 24 TB 22 25 Den 21 26 Min 21 27 Cin 20 28 Cle 20 29 Buf 19 30 Mia 19 31 GB 19 32 StL 19 So lets see, 12 teams will play for the right to play in the Super Bowl . Of those teams 8 teams had more drops then the Saints . Only 4 teams had fewer drops then the Saints and are in the play offs . 3 0f the 4 teams that earned a first round bye , had more drops then the Saints . :hallucine: For those keeping Saints back up quarterback stats , Both Delhomme and Bulger had fewer drops .... :o
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

01-04-2004, 07:16 PM	#2
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Putting the Brooks myth to rest Ok, I\'ll bite. It is not the number of drops alone that matter, it is when and where they happen. Furthermore, an aggregate drop stat is somewhat useless unless you know how many passes were thrown. That is, if one ball is dropped for every 10 passes, that is better than one ball dropped for every 3 passes - but I\'m certain I\'m not stunning anyone with this observation. Thus the simple number of drops is not particularly perspicuous in demonstrating what hurt the QB. I hope that gets the ball rolling on this one. Cheers.

01-04-2004, 07:24 PM	#3
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,713	Putting the Brooks myth to rest 08. if you think Aaron Brooks is the reason we didn\'t make the playoffs you\'re sadly mistaken. This team has so many problems that blaming this year on Brooks is unfair. He\'s one of the few on this team that didn\'t underachieve this year. On a list of problems, he\'s way down the list... 1. Bad play calling/game planning by the OC. 2. Massive injuries, first on the D then the O. 3. A head coach that tolerates \"me\" players. 4. A fullback that can\'t catch or run 5. A special teams returner that runs due east or west. 6. A defensive line that couldn\'t play the run 7. A special team\'s unit that regressed in a major way. 8. Sloppy tackling by SEVERAL players (not jus TJ). 9. An all-pro RB that got very little rest during the season. 10. Players more interested in TD stunts than playing football 11. A WR that rarely plays because he felt a twitch in his hammy 12. An aging kicker who\'s losing his leg. 13. A QB that fumbles at crucial times. and finally... 13. Disgruntled cry-baby fans that are still vocally bitter about the local boy not getting his shot.

01-04-2004, 10:45 PM	#4
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Putting the Brooks myth to rest Furthermore, an aggregate drop stat is somewhat useless unless you know how many passes were thrown. Fair enough Rank Team Drops / attempts 2 Sea 41 / 521 3 KC 40 / 536 7 Ind 33 / 569 9 Bal 33 / 415 11 Dal 32 / 510 13 Phi 31 / 484 16 Ten 27 / 502 18 NE 26 / 537 20 NO 26 / 535 21 Car 24 / 460 25 Den 21 / 479 31 GB 19 / 473 32 StL 19 / 600 So lets only use teams with similar passing attempts for our comparison . All of the following teams made the play offs with about the same average of attempts and all had more dropped passes then Brooks . New England / 537 Seattle / 521 Indy / 569 New Orleans / 535 Kansas City / 536 Now lets filter it by defensive performance , and because this is by actual defensive performance , there in no whining about injuries , that is potential after the fact . Defensive average per game New England / 292 Seattle / 328 Indy / 300 New Orleans / 327 Kansas City / 357 Now lets filter Rushing New England / 1607 Seattle / 2009 Indy / 1695 New Orleans / 2000 Kansas City / 1929 Now for the final stat , we will go with the 4 teams closest in totals . All of the following teams had more dropped passes then Brooks , similar defensive yardage allowed , similar pass attempts and similar season rushing totals . Yet only one is not in the Play offs , lets see . Seattle - pass completion percentage 60.8 Indy - pass completion percentage 67.0 Kansas City - pass completion percentage 63.2 New Orleans - pass completion percentage 58.7 08. if you think Aaron Brooks is the reason we didn\'t make the playoffs you\'re sadly mistaken. This team has so many problems that blaming this year on Brooks is unfair. He\'s one of the few on this team that didn\'t underachieve this year. On a list of problems, he\'s way down the list... Is that by your standard or by what it takes to make the play offs ???
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan Brooks is a moron!! - Halo

01-05-2004, 03:20 AM	#5
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Putting the Brooks myth to rest Gator, I couldn\'t agree more. 08, I have to profess some misunderstanding. I\'m not sure what the conclusion is now. Is it this, several teams have more drops, about the same defense, about the same rushing offense, but they still made the playoffs? Therefore, due to the parity in all of these stats, it must be Brooks\' fault we didn\'t make the playoffs - becuase he is the only other factor in wins/losses? If that is what you are saying, and no one should hold you accountable for what might be a very bad interpretation on my behalf, then I don\'t think that your conclusion follows just yet. There are obviously many other factors that contribute to wins/losses over and above QB, Total D, and Total Rushing per game. Some obvious things come to mind, special teams, refs, goal-line defense, and timing of big plays (including fumbles and interceptions) - I\'m sure the list goes on. Thus, even though you have brought up some good stuff, but I\'m not sure it should be convincing.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

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01-05-2004, 10:20 AM	#6
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Putting the Brooks myth to rest \"PLAYOFFS NEXT YEAR OR YOUR OUT HAZLETT!!\" That\'s funny Gator, you said that before this year too. Shall I go find the \"NO EXCUSES\" thread from this preseason to prove it? I don\'t mean to pick on Gator at all. I\'m just using his words to prove a point. When will the fans of this team actually get enough backbone to support their statements and demand better play? We all knock Benson, but are we any different? I was about the ONLY guy calling for Haslett\'s head at the end of last season. I was one of a few talking about \"no excuses\" this preseason (Gator was one of those guys too - to his credit), and now, after the third straight disappointing season, everyone is talking about Haslett being the problem... Yet, in typical Saints (and Saints fan) style, everyone is saying \"next year\". Next year is the year he better prove it. Next year is the they better make the playoffs. No, sorry guys, that was this year. Stand up and say that Haslett should be gone already. I mean, what if they do make the playoffs next season. Who here thinks it will be because of Haslett? Not me. So if he makes the playoffs next year, what about the year after? Does he get three more years of underacheiving? Sorry boys, Haslett has proven his worth to me in four years here, and let me tell you, it ain\'t much. And I don\'t want to hear about rebuilding years. A new coach does NOT mean a subpar season. Just look at Parcells, or, if you prefer, try to thin kback and remember what JIM HASLETT did in his first year as the head coach of this team. There are only four questions I have to ask myself: 1. Can this team play up to or above its potential with Haslett as the coach? 2. Can they win a Super Bowl with Haslett? 3. Does a coaching change mean they have no shot at the playoffs next year? 4. Does a coaching change give new hope to the players and fans for the future? If you answered \"no\" to the first three, and \"yes\" to number 4, you\'re with me, so start standing up and saying it. I don\'t want to hear any more of this \"next year\" garbage anymore.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

01-07-2004, 09:56 AM	#7
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Putting the Brooks myth to rest Here Saintsfan , come sink your teeth into some tender vittles ..... :P
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

01-07-2004, 10:16 AM	#8
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Putting the Brooks myth to rest I listened to the \"state of the union\" address from Parcells on the Cowboys yesterday, and he said something that struck me. I think we can all agree that Parcells knows a little something about the game of football. The two quotes that really struck me was: \"With the exception of deep snapper, if I am able to upgrade any position on this team within reason, I will.\" \"In this league, the less reliant you are on your quarterback to win games for you, the better your team is.\" It may sound as if he will be replacing Quincy at the QB position, but he stressed that Quincy is his starting QB right now. He didn\'t, however, rule out replacing anyone on that team. And I think that is a more realistic way to view your team. If you have the best, or the best of the best, then there isn\'t an upgrade. And while Roy Williams is pound for pound the best player on the Cowboys, he is not elite, even though he is approaching that very fast, and if an opportunity comes along to upgrade that position at a reasonable deal, he would not rule out making that deal. Do I see Roy Williams and Flozell Adams starting for the Cowboys next year, yes, but you\'ve got to always keep in mind that you want what is best for the team, not the individual.
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?

01-07-2004, 12:16 PM	#9
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Putting the Brooks myth to rest One thing that I must admit about Mueller that I thought was great was that he constantly combed the waiver wire looking for the 30 - 50 players . Those players on the second and third teams , they were not safe under the Mueller regime and had to prove their own each and every day and that aspect of the team always filters up . Competition in the ranks is a good thing in the N.F.L. , it keeps the starters focused on getting better and less likely to take a play or a day off .... This is something that has been lacking in New Orleans since Mueller has left .
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan Brooks is a moron!! - Halo

01-07-2004, 01:07 PM	#10
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	Putting the Brooks myth to rest \"PLAYOFFS NEXT YEAR OR YOUR OUT HAZLETT!!\" I have to admit that for whatever reason I root for Haslet to be successful. Not only because he is Saints HC, but because he has that fiery demeanor I enjoy of HC\'s in general. But most of this season I had as part of my sig \"Dennis Green for HC/GM.\" Even so, I have to admit that I don\'t see Benson replacing Haslet even if the Saints miss the playoffs next year unless Jim has someplace to go. From what I understand, Haslet still has 3 years left on his contract at around 3 mil per season. Does anyone really think Benson is going to fire a coach that he\'ll owe so much while the State of Louisiana is having to pay Benson to keep the team \"financially viable\"? Not to mention the newly elected Govenor is soon to take office and we have no real idea of whther she is in favor of supporting the Saints to the same degree as Foster. Benson is not going to cut his throat with the State by throwing away good money by firing Haslet when he can simply keep Haslet and thereby keeping the State happy and keeping us fans thinking \"next year!\"