Saints "Fearsome Foursome"

biloxi-indian · 01-18-2012, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by gandhi1007

I don't think the front four would be a fall off at all. Quite possibly an improvement. As for the LB's, Vilma's leadership & knowledge of offensive formations would be missed but not much more than that. It would sure free up a heck of alot of money to use in free agency, that's for sure!

I did a quick add of 2011 salary cap for Smith, Ellis, and Vilma and came up with approximately $20.7mm.

FinSaint · 01-18-2012, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by gandhi1007

I don't think the front four would be a fall off at all. Quite possibly an improvement. As for the LB's, Vilma's leadership & knowledge of offensive formations would be missed but not much more than that. It would sure free up a heck of alot of money to use in free agency, that's for sure!

I agree with you on Vilma, and I'm hesitant to believe that his knee problems will be over now. Once the knees are gone, so is the sideline-to-sideline pursuit, which is a key for a MLB. Just look at Lofa Tatupu, who was an all-pro MLB with great speed on the field, but after his knees gave out the Seahawks couldn't get rid of him fast enough.

I would like for the Saints to maybe look at Curtis Lofton as a FA replacement for Vilma as the MLB, because as much as I like Dunbar - there's no guarantees he'll be back and Lofton would probably be better than him anyway.

Lofton had a conbined 147 tackles for the Failclowns last season with 1 sack, 7 patted passes, and 2 INTs one of which he returned for a TD.

Danno · 01-18-2012, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

I agree with you on Vilma, and I'm hesitant to believe that his knee problems will be over now. Once the knees are gone, so is the sideline-to-sideline pursuit, which is a key for a MLB. Just look at Lofa Tatupu, who was an all-pro MLB with great speed on the field, but after his knees gave out the Seahawks couldn't get rid of him fast enough.

I would like for the Saints to maybe look at Curtis Lofton as a FA replacement for Vilma as the MLB, because as much as I like Dunbar - there's no guarantees he'll be back and Lofton would probably be better than him anyway.

Lofton had a conbined 147 tackles for the Failclowns last season with 1 sack, 7 patted passes, and 2 INTs one of which he returned for a TD.

Always like Lofton. I was disappointed when the Falcons drafted him.

FinSaint · 01-18-2012, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by biloxi-indian

Let me begin by saying I believe in continuity. That being said, I viewed the following and wondered:

New-Orleans-Saints Salaries | New-Orleans-Saints Player Salaries | 2011 New-Orleans-Saints Salary

How much of a fall off would the D line have if Franklin, King, Johnson, Galette, Charleston, Jordan, and McBride were the front rotation?

Same ? for LB'ers; Dunbar, Humber, Casillas, Wilson, Herring, and Bussey (if all are HEALTHY)?

Yeah, we also have to remember that the "sleeper pick" Romeus will probably be ready to compete for a DE roster spot for next season.

Still, the Saints would need another DT in the rotation because 3 won't do and there's only Franklin there who plays NT while Johnson and King are both more 3-tech, furthermore, King might be little undersized in any case to be an effective pressure creator.

I think King played LB in HS, so maybe he is more versatile than we've given him credit for, and maybe the new DC can do some experimenting with his placement on the field to better take advantage of his skill-set.

In any case, both Smith and Ellis are not worth their current contracts, and if they won't agree to restructuring - the Saints might be better off without them in the roster for 2012.

gandhi1007 · 01-18-2012, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

Yeah, we also have to remember that the "sleeper pick" Romeus will probably be ready to compete for a DE roster spot for next season.

Very true. I have high hopes for this guy.

halloween 65 · 01-18-2012, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

Yeah, we also have to remember that the "sleeper pick" Romeus will probably be ready to compete for a DE roster spot for next season.

Still, the Saints would need another DT in the rotation because 3 won't do and there's only Franklin there who plays NT while Johnson and King are both more 3-tech, furthermore, King might be little undersized in any case to be an effective pressure creator.

I think King played LB in HS, so maybe he is more versatile than we've given him credit for, and maybe the new DC can do some experimenting with his placement on the field to better take advantage of his skill-set.

In any case, both Smith and Ellis are not worth their current contracts, and if they won't agree to restructuring - the Saints might be better off without them in the roster for 2012.

You had me up to the last 2 lines. Smith, Ellis and I will add Vilma need to go, not restucture, maybe in a trade for other players or draft picks and if no teams bite so be it cut their sorry butts, that free's up cap space{alot}. I'm really pi$$'ed at those 3 anyway 1 for being overhyped and 2 same reason.We should be able to get a couple of quality players,{ SOMETHING THOSE 3 WAS IN THEIR DREAMS} either way.

FinSaint · 01-18-2012, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by halloween 65

We should be able to get a couple of quality players,{ SOMETHING THOSE 3 WAS IN THEIR DREAMS} either way.

To be honest, I think Vilma was worth his contract in 2008, 2009, and somewhat in 2010. It was only late last and the whole of this season that he fell off what is expected of him, and probably that decline has everything to do with his knees, which is why I doubt we'll see a great improvement next season if he's still with the Saints. But to say that "he was a quality player only in his dreams" is not at all correct in my opinion. And the 2005 season with the Jets - if I remember correctly - was lights out from him and probably his best season as a NFL player.

Smith, on the other hand, had two really good seasons tackling-wise in 2007 & 2008, and then an all around good year in 2009 when he racked up additionally 13 sacks. But the last two seasons have seen his stats decline in all aspects - still we have to remember that he was hurt in 2010 and missed the start of this season with the star caps debacle - it's hard to pinpoint why the decline has taken place, but it might just be because of the general schemes and also somewhat due to the other players on that defensive front. Still, I would give him the benefit of the doubt if he had his salary severely reduced to less than half. Again, Smith has been a quality player for the Saints and could still be that with a lower price tag to match his productivity.

Now, with Ellis I think your statement has some validity to it. During his first 4 seasons he has just never risen to meet those 1st round draft pick expectations, but one could argue that maybe those expectations were never realistic in the first place. Nevertheless, he is making 1st round money without the production to go along with it, and that is why he is expendable. His relatively small demeanor for a DT is probably one of the reasons why he hasn't found the success in the NFL which he had at the college level, and why he never gets his hands up to brake up the pass. Also, I was very disappointed with the lack of speed he showed this season as opposed to f.e. the 2010 season. If you don't have the size to push the O-Linemen backwards or have the speed to be an effective 3-tech... what are you good for?

The reason why I would not like to see both Vilma and Smith leave the Saints is that those are two of the guys who have worn the C on the defense, and I'm afraid that getting rid of both of them might have a bad affect on the rest of the guys on the defense. I know it is a business with business decisions, but if the other guys really look up to two guys in the locker-room and on the field - it would have to be a hard pill to swallow seeing both of them being kicked to the curve by the management.

saintfan · 01-18-2012, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by biloxi-indian

Let me begin by saying I believe in continuity. That being said, I viewed the following and wondered:

New-Orleans-Saints Salaries | New-Orleans-Saints Player Salaries | 2011 New-Orleans-Saints Salary

How much of a fall off would the D line have if Franklin, King, Johnson, Galette, Charleston, Jordan, and McBride were the front rotation?

Same ? for LB'ers; Dunbar, Humber, Casillas, Wilson, Herring, and Bussey (if all are HEALTHY)?

Given our pitiful ability (lack of one actually) to get any real pressure I'd sign off on it. Windows of opportunity like the one we are currently enjoying are rare. We can hardly do worse with our D line and linebackers. Blow it up and let some of the new guys take a shot at it if nothing else.

Luda34 · 01-18-2012, 04:55 PM

If I was the Saints I would cut Will Smith and go after Osi Umenyiora I don't think the Giants want to pay him go get him.

gandhi1007 · 01-18-2012, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Luda34

If I was the Saints I would cut Will Smith and go after Osi Umenyiora I don't think the Giants want to pay him go get him.

Cut Will Smith......YES. Too much money & not enough production.

Go after Osi Umenyiora......NO. His cost is too high & he's not even the best DE on his own team.

01-18-2012, 05:35 PM	#1
biloxi-indian Site Donor Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Southlake, TX Posts: 1,706	Originally Posted by gandhi1007 I don't think the front four would be a fall off at all. Quite possibly an improvement. As for the LB's, Vilma's leadership & knowledge of offensive formations would be missed but not much more than that. It would sure free up a heck of alot of money to use in free agency, that's for sure! I did a quick add of 2011 salary cap for Smith, Ellis, and Vilma and came up with approximately $20.7mm.

01-18-2012, 05:40 PM	#2
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,964	Originally Posted by gandhi1007 I don't think the front four would be a fall off at all. Quite possibly an improvement. As for the LB's, Vilma's leadership & knowledge of offensive formations would be missed but not much more than that. It would sure free up a heck of alot of money to use in free agency, that's for sure! I agree with you on Vilma, and I'm hesitant to believe that his knee problems will be over now. Once the knees are gone, so is the sideline-to-sideline pursuit, which is a key for a MLB. Just look at Lofa Tatupu, who was an all-pro MLB with great speed on the field, but after his knees gave out the Seahawks couldn't get rid of him fast enough. I would like for the Saints to maybe look at Curtis Lofton as a FA replacement for Vilma as the MLB, because as much as I like Dunbar - there's no guarantees he'll be back and Lofton would probably be better than him anyway. Lofton had a conbined 147 tackles for the Failclowns last season with 1 sack, 7 patted passes, and 2 INTs one of which he returned for a TD.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

01-18-2012, 05:48 PM	#3
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,758	Originally Posted by FinSaint I agree with you on Vilma, and I'm hesitant to believe that his knee problems will be over now. Once the knees are gone, so is the sideline-to-sideline pursuit, which is a key for a MLB. Just look at Lofa Tatupu, who was an all-pro MLB with great speed on the field, but after his knees gave out the Seahawks couldn't get rid of him fast enough. I would like for the Saints to maybe look at Curtis Lofton as a FA replacement for Vilma as the MLB, because as much as I like Dunbar - there's no guarantees he'll be back and Lofton would probably be better than him anyway. Lofton had a conbined 147 tackles for the Failclowns last season with 1 sack, 7 patted passes, and 2 INTs one of which he returned for a TD. Always like Lofton. I was disappointed when the Falcons drafted him.

01-18-2012, 05:29 PM	#4
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,964	Originally Posted by biloxi-indian Let me begin by saying I believe in continuity. That being said, I viewed the following and wondered: New-Orleans-Saints Salaries \| New-Orleans-Saints Player Salaries \| 2011 New-Orleans-Saints Salary How much of a fall off would the D line have if Franklin, King, Johnson, Galette, Charleston, Jordan, and McBride were the front rotation? Same ? for LB'ers; Dunbar, Humber, Casillas, Wilson, Herring, and Bussey (if all are HEALTHY)? Yeah, we also have to remember that the "sleeper pick" Romeus will probably be ready to compete for a DE roster spot for next season. Still, the Saints would need another DT in the rotation because 3 won't do and there's only Franklin there who plays NT while Johnson and King are both more 3-tech, furthermore, King might be little undersized in any case to be an effective pressure creator. I think King played LB in HS, so maybe he is more versatile than we've given him credit for, and maybe the new DC can do some experimenting with his placement on the field to better take advantage of his skill-set. In any case, both Smith and Ellis are not worth their current contracts, and if they won't agree to restructuring - the Saints might be better off without them in the roster for 2012. halloween 65 likes this.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

01-18-2012, 05:33 PM	#5
gandhi1007 Part Time Pimp Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,967	Originally Posted by FinSaint Yeah, we also have to remember that the "sleeper pick" Romeus will probably be ready to compete for a DE roster spot for next season. Very true. I have high hopes for this guy. halloween 65 likes this.

01-18-2012, 06:54 PM	#6
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Originally Posted by FinSaint Yeah, we also have to remember that the "sleeper pick" Romeus will probably be ready to compete for a DE roster spot for next season. Still, the Saints would need another DT in the rotation because 3 won't do and there's only Franklin there who plays NT while Johnson and King are both more 3-tech, furthermore, King might be little undersized in any case to be an effective pressure creator. I think King played LB in HS, so maybe he is more versatile than we've given him credit for, and maybe the new DC can do some experimenting with his placement on the field to better take advantage of his skill-set. In any case, both Smith and Ellis are not worth their current contracts, and if they won't agree to restructuring - the Saints might be better off without them in the roster for 2012. You had me up to the last 2 lines. Smith, Ellis and I will add Vilma need to go, not restucture, maybe in a trade for other players or draft picks and if no teams bite so be it cut their sorry butts, that free's up cap space{alot}. I'm really pi$$'ed at those 3 anyway 1 for being overhyped and 2 same reason.We should be able to get a couple of quality players,{ SOMETHING THOSE 3 WAS IN THEIR DREAMS} either way.

01-18-2012, 09:58 PM	#7
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,964	Originally Posted by halloween 65 We should be able to get a couple of quality players,{ SOMETHING THOSE 3 WAS IN THEIR DREAMS} either way. To be honest, I think Vilma was worth his contract in 2008, 2009, and somewhat in 2010. It was only late last and the whole of this season that he fell off what is expected of him, and probably that decline has everything to do with his knees, which is why I doubt we'll see a great improvement next season if he's still with the Saints. But to say that "he was a quality player only in his dreams" is not at all correct in my opinion. And the 2005 season with the Jets - if I remember correctly - was lights out from him and probably his best season as a NFL player. Smith, on the other hand, had two really good seasons tackling-wise in 2007 & 2008, and then an all around good year in 2009 when he racked up additionally 13 sacks. But the last two seasons have seen his stats decline in all aspects - still we have to remember that he was hurt in 2010 and missed the start of this season with the star caps debacle - it's hard to pinpoint why the decline has taken place, but it might just be because of the general schemes and also somewhat due to the other players on that defensive front. Still, I would give him the benefit of the doubt if he had his salary severely reduced to less than half. Again, Smith has been a quality player for the Saints and could still be that with a lower price tag to match his productivity. Now, with Ellis I think your statement has some validity to it. During his first 4 seasons he has just never risen to meet those 1st round draft pick expectations, but one could argue that maybe those expectations were never realistic in the first place. Nevertheless, he is making 1st round money without the production to go along with it, and that is why he is expendable. His relatively small demeanor for a DT is probably one of the reasons why he hasn't found the success in the NFL which he had at the college level, and why he never gets his hands up to brake up the pass. Also, I was very disappointed with the lack of speed he showed this season as opposed to f.e. the 2010 season. If you don't have the size to push the O-Linemen backwards or have the speed to be an effective 3-tech... what are you good for? The reason why I would not like to see both Vilma and Smith leave the Saints is that those are two of the guys who have worn the C on the defense, and I'm afraid that getting rid of both of them might have a bad affect on the rest of the guys on the defense. I know it is a business with business decisions, but if the other guys really look up to two guys in the locker-room and on the field - it would have to be a hard pill to swallow seeing both of them being kicked to the curve by the management.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

01-18-2012, 05:30 PM	#8
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by biloxi-indian Let me begin by saying I believe in continuity. That being said, I viewed the following and wondered: New-Orleans-Saints Salaries \| New-Orleans-Saints Player Salaries \| 2011 New-Orleans-Saints Salary How much of a fall off would the D line have if Franklin, King, Johnson, Galette, Charleston, Jordan, and McBride were the front rotation? Same ? for LB'ers; Dunbar, Humber, Casillas, Wilson, Herring, and Bussey (if all are HEALTHY)? Given our pitiful ability (lack of one actually) to get any real pressure I'd sign off on it. Windows of opportunity like the one we are currently enjoying are rare. We can hardly do worse with our D line and linebackers. Blow it up and let some of the new guys take a shot at it if nothing else.

01-18-2012, 04:55 PM	#9
Luda34 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Houston Tx Posts: 1,219	If I was the Saints I would cut Will Smith and go after Osi Umenyiora I don't think the Giants want to pay him go get him.

01-18-2012, 05:17 PM	#10
gandhi1007 Part Time Pimp Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,967	Originally Posted by Luda34 If I was the Saints I would cut Will Smith and go after Osi Umenyiora I don't think the Giants want to pay him go get him. Cut Will Smith......YES. Too much money & not enough production. Go after Osi Umenyiora......NO. His cost is too high & he's not even the best DE on his own team.

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