Saints "Fearsome Foursome"

FinSaint · 01-19-2012, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by halloween 65

I do agree with some of your statement, but I disagree with some also, not to sound disrespectful but as far as Vilma goes this is no where near 2005 and he has to me had 1 1/2 good years here and to be the captain of the D and his lack of production after that last year and all of this year tells alot about the player, if our lb.'s are being measured by his skill set they should have been set in 2005 not now. Ellis, my expectations of him was high, but to me he is average at best, Smith, I don't really know where he lost his edge but it's gone. A new DC will bring in players that fit his style of play and unless Vilma, Ellis or Smith has played his profile of football they can be replaced by anyone that can produce better results, so the title of captain means nothing. Each of them have had a few good years and I feel that they are living on past performances and reputation which goes only so far unless they continue to back it up in which they are not doing, to me it's what have you done for me lately, not what you use to do that just don't get it done if you want to win. Perfect example Gregg Williams. And to be honest none of them will be in the hall of fame.

My main argument in the last reply was that as far as both Vilma and Smith go - they've been quality players during their careers, which was something you claimed they've only been in their dreams. Now, I know you probably didn't mean it literally, but I would still want to make the distinction that they've been quality and they still could be going forward.

Furthermore, being a quality player doesn't necessarily mean that a player is in the Top 5 of his position in the league - at least in my opinion. I think it is more about filling your role in the roster to the best of one's abilities and giving the right return to the management in terms of salary vs production.

In that sense I think Smith could still be a quality player for the Saints, but his salary would need to be reduced significantly in order to match the production of the past two seasons. To be honest we might see an improvement in his production come next season, new DC, and new schemes which might suit his skill-set much better. Therefore, I think the new contract should have a low base salary with a number of performance based clauses which could reward him for an increased productivity if that were the case. Kind of like "a carrot and a stick" approach to his new contract.

Also, if the Saints were to sign Spags as their new DC and have as a goal of recreating some of that front 4 pass rush the Giants have had since 2007 - having a lot of pass rushers would be a key for the rotation that would be necessary in order to establish it. That is where Smith's worth to the team might elevate him back to that quality status... granted his contract would still need to be restructured.

Vilma is a hard one to evaluate in terms of what he can bring to the field going forward, and it all depends on what the status is with his knees? The team physios know it the best and I'm sure SP & ML will make the correct assessments regarding his future, so it is hard to say whether or not he could still be a quality player for the Saints. Furthermore, I think it also tells a lot about a player that he was willing to play with an injury (that needed surgeries to repair) in order to help his team to have a better chance at winning... just saying you can take that and twist it any way you prefer.

I'm not even going to defend Ellis because I think his time is up.

But leadership inside a team is one of those intangibles that is very hard for us fans to evaluate looking from outside in, and that is why I would be hesitant to call for both Vilma's and Smith's heads. If the contract negotiations with Brees hang on without a clear solution before training camps - which I don't think will happen - it would be very important to have leaders who could bring the team together at those challenging times. I don't know, it's all guesswork, but I was just voicing my concerns.

01-19-2012, 09:11 AM	#22
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,964	Originally Posted by halloween 65 I do agree with some of your statement, but I disagree with some also, not to sound disrespectful but as far as Vilma goes this is no where near 2005 and he has to me had 1 1/2 good years here and to be the captain of the D and his lack of production after that last year and all of this year tells alot about the player, if our lb.'s are being measured by his skill set they should have been set in 2005 not now. Ellis, my expectations of him was high, but to me he is average at best, Smith, I don't really know where he lost his edge but it's gone. A new DC will bring in players that fit his style of play and unless Vilma, Ellis or Smith has played his profile of football they can be replaced by anyone that can produce better results, so the title of captain means nothing. Each of them have had a few good years and I feel that they are living on past performances and reputation which goes only so far unless they continue to back it up in which they are not doing, to me it's what have you done for me lately, not what you use to do that just don't get it done if you want to win. Perfect example Gregg Williams. And to be honest none of them will be in the hall of fame. My main argument in the last reply was that as far as both Vilma and Smith go - they've been quality players during their careers, which was something you claimed they've only been in their dreams. Now, I know you probably didn't mean it literally, but I would still want to make the distinction that they've been quality and they still could be going forward. Furthermore, being a quality player doesn't necessarily mean that a player is in the Top 5 of his position in the league - at least in my opinion. I think it is more about filling your role in the roster to the best of one's abilities and giving the right return to the management in terms of salary vs production. In that sense I think Smith could still be a quality player for the Saints, but his salary would need to be reduced significantly in order to match the production of the past two seasons. To be honest we might see an improvement in his production come next season, new DC, and new schemes which might suit his skill-set much better. Therefore, I think the new contract should have a low base salary with a number of performance based clauses which could reward him for an increased productivity if that were the case. Kind of like "a carrot and a stick" approach to his new contract. Also, if the Saints were to sign Spags as their new DC and have as a goal of recreating some of that front 4 pass rush the Giants have had since 2007 - having a lot of pass rushers would be a key for the rotation that would be necessary in order to establish it. That is where Smith's worth to the team might elevate him back to that quality status... granted his contract would still need to be restructured. Vilma is a hard one to evaluate in terms of what he can bring to the field going forward, and it all depends on what the status is with his knees? The team physios know it the best and I'm sure SP & ML will make the correct assessments regarding his future, so it is hard to say whether or not he could still be a quality player for the Saints. Furthermore, I think it also tells a lot about a player that he was willing to play with an injury (that needed surgeries to repair) in order to help his team to have a better chance at winning... just saying you can take that and twist it any way you prefer. I'm not even going to defend Ellis because I think his time is up. But leadership inside a team is one of those intangibles that is very hard for us fans to evaluate looking from outside in, and that is why I would be hesitant to call for both Vilma's and Smith's heads. If the contract negotiations with Brees hang on without a clear solution before training camps - which I don't think will happen - it would be very important to have leaders who could bring the team together at those challenging times. I don't know, it's all guesswork, but I was just voicing my concerns.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

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