Shaun Rogers ranked 7th

FinSaint · 02-26-2012, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by halloween 65

I would let a 3/4 defense have him since we are a 4/3, he did not do well in our 4/3 and someone who could excel could earn that spot for that money. I had high hopes for the both of them, well that was all it amounted to was hope, not production.

But that is the perception I was trying to disprove...

Franklin produced at the level at which all the indicators - before the Saints signed him - showed he should, so I can't accept a statement like "he under performed" purely because of that fact.

Franklin has never been a pass rushing DL - he has always been a run stopping DL - so if the Saints signed him to be a pass rusher, it is not Franklin's fault he didn't live up to that role.

Rogers was supposed to be the one to create the interior push and pass rush out of the two FA DT signings, and that is why I would not want them to re-sign him.

No matter how much we all would like to see an improvement in the interior pass rush next season, the Saints still need guys that are strong against the run, so that the opposition is forced to throw the ball. That is why I like D-linemen like Franklin and Jordan, who are very good at defending the run.

It seems to me that many fans have had misguided beliefs about what type of players both Franklin and Jordan were/are, which has led to many expressing their disappointment at their performances when I personally think that both of them did a fine job in their respective roles.

halloween 65 · 02-26-2012, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

But that is the perception I was trying to disprove...

Franklin produced at the level at which all the indicators - before the Saints signed him - showed he should, so I can't accept a statement like "he under performed" purely because of that fact.

Franklin has never been a pass rushing DL - he has always been a run stopping DL - so if the Saints signed him to be a pass rusher, it is not Franklin's fault he didn't live up to that role.

Rogers was supposed to be the one to create the interior push and pass rush out of the two FA DT signings, and that is why I would not want them to re-sign him.

No matter how much we all would like to see an improvement in the interior pass rush next season, the Saints still need guys that are strong against the run, so that the opposition is forced to throw the ball. That is why I like D-linemen like Franklin and Jordan, who are very good at defending the run.

It seems to me that many fans have had misguided beliefs about what type of players both Franklin and Jordan were/are, which has led to many expressing their disappointment at their performances when I personally think that both of them did a fine job in their respective roles.

If all you want is someone to stand the line up and get no penitration well I guess he's your man. But for me I want someboby that can penitrait and defend the run, a disruptive force so to speak, rather than settling for a one dimentional run stuffer and as I looked at the 10 he was well #10. Me I would take my chances with someone else, especially if they keep Ellis.

FinSaint · 02-26-2012, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by halloween 65

If all you want is someone to stand the line up and get no penitration well I guess he's your man. But for me I want someboby that can penitrait and defend the run, a disruptive force so to speak, rather than settling for a one dimentional run stuffer and as I looked at the 10 he was well #10. Me I would take my chances with someone else, especially if they keep Ellis.

Yes, I do see your point, and naturally I would like for the Saints to have a DT who could stop the run, create interior pass rush with sacks, pat passes down, and catch those passes for pick 6s.

But, I simply can't believe that the Saints' FO didn't know what type of a DT Franklin was when they decided to make him an offer. Therefore, it is only logical to conclude that they wanted a run stuffing DT like Franklin and didn't much care if whether or not he could create interior pass rush. So, it is not about what I want, but what it seems like the Saints' FO wanted in signing a player like Franklin.

Going into the season, I remember statements like this being thrown around: "Rogers and Franklin are going to attract so many double teams that Ellis will have a career year rushing the passer," but he didn't while the afore mentioned did attract their share of double teams. So, I would think that maybe the coaches were expecting the pass rush to come primarily from other players than these two big guys... maybe I'm wrong? ...or maybe it was just GW imagining Harper having 24 sacks in the season?

I wouldn't mind a more 1-dimensional DT with an emphasis on anchoring the point of defense, but he would have to be partnered with either another DT who was a good pass rusher or with DEs that were able to close up the pocket from the edges.

Originally Posted by blackangold

I understand that Jordan was never considered a pass rushing DE during his collegiate career however given the amount of sacks he got (1) for the season considering the playing time he got does not make me happy about the decision to draft him. Consider this, the sack he managed to get was against Cam Newton who was running out of the pocket, not to mention when Jordan made the tackle it was a personal foul (horse collar).

That wasn't his sack... a sack isn't given if a defensive penalty occurs during the said play. He got his sack a while after that particular play.

blackangold · 02-27-2012, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

That wasn't his sack... a sack isn't given if a defensive penalty occurs during the said play. He got his sack a while after that particular play.

Yes, that was his only sack of the season.

NFL Videos: Saints defense, sack, 5-yd loss

However, you are correct it should not have been recorded as a sack so Cam actually had zero sacks for the season....

FinSaint · 02-27-2012, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by blackangold

Yes, that was his only sack of the season.

However, you are correct it should not have been recorded as a sack so Cam actually had zero sacks for the season....

I guess you could be right, but I seem to remember him getting another sack after that in the same game, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

I doubt they would've marked that as his sack, because there was the horsecollar call against him. Maybe he had 2 half sacks or something... I really don't know, but I still think he had another tackle for a loss in that game.

Anyway, for all of those who expected Jordan to be a sack machine in the NFL - this is from a Bleacherreport article that was published ahead of last year's draft:

The 2011 NFL Draft Is Loaded With Sack Specialists, Which May Leave Cameron Jordan Lost In The Shuffle.

In a rich draft at the DE position, Cal’s Cameron Jordan stands out as a high-level run defender. However, his pass-rushing ability (or lack thereof) may be scaring off some potential suitors.

[...]

Jordan totaled just 16.5 sacks in 32 starts for the Golden Bears, so there is reason to question his ability to bring consistent pressure on the QB in the pros. Whether that issue will prevent him from being a successful NFL end, though, is far from certain.

Jordan’s toughness against the run makes him especially well-suited to playing end in a 3-4 setup, and there are lots of 3-4 teams in need of help on the line in this draft.

While he may not appeal as much to a team that needs him to take over a game right away, teams drafting later in the first round (Green Bay springs to mind) would be happy to add a polished, hard-working DE who doesn’t necessarily show up among the league’s sack leaders.

Considering the number of defensive ends who have washed out of the NFL for their inability to stop the run, Jordan could turn out to be a serious steal.

NFL Draft 2011: Cameron Jordan's Pass-Rushing Ability at NFL Level a Question | Bleacher Report

The Saints knew this, and they still went after Jordan, so that tells me that they wanted a LDE, who could primarily stop the run.

blackangold · 02-27-2012, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

The Saints knew this, and they still went after Jordan, so that tells me that they wanted a LDE, who could primarily stop the run.

Agreed, just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Also, doesn't make sense to me. We are a high scoring team year in and year out. What does that mean on D; teams are going to have to pass the ball to keep up. So what do we do: we grab a run stopping DE in the draft, a run stopping DT in Franklin, a run stuffing DT in Rodgers and we let the best pass rushing DT we have walk in free agency (Hargrove).

I have been frustrated as I am sure many Saints fans have about the lack of pass rush from the LDE position. First it was Grant who had one good year as a pass rusher, then Brown who came in with high hopes and failed to perform. Now I see the same thing with Jordan. In Spags D rushing the passer from the DE position is priority---worried. Worried because if Jordan and Smith are the starting DEs I see our secondary getting left out to dry all year long...

ScottF · 02-27-2012, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by blackangold

Yes, that was his only sack of the season.
NFL Videos: Saints defense, sack, 5-yd loss

However, you are correct it should not have been recorded as a sack so Cam actually had zero sacks for the season....

I don't even have to watch the video- I remember it well- one of many favorable calls that the annointed one got.

No flag on the play, and then the refs huddle up, and lo and behold, horse @#$& horse collar

blackangold · 02-26-2012, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

But that is the perception I was trying to disprove...

Franklin produced at the level at which all the indicators - before the Saints signed him - showed he should, so I can't accept a statement like "he under performed" purely because of that fact.

Franklin has never been a pass rushing DL - he has always been a run stopping DL - so if the Saints signed him to be a pass rusher, it is not Franklin's fault he didn't live up to that role.

Rogers was supposed to be the one to create the interior push and pass rush out of the two FA DT signings, and that is why I would not want them to re-sign him.

No matter how much we all would like to see an improvement in the interior pass rush next season, the Saints still need guys that are strong against the run, so that the opposition is forced to throw the ball. That is why I like D-linemen like Franklin and Jordan, who are very good at defending the run.

It seems to me that many fans have had misguided beliefs about what type of players both Franklin and Jordan were/are, which has led to many expressing their disappointment at their performances when I personally think that both of them did a fine job in their respective roles.

I understand that Jordan was never considered a pass rushing DE during his collegiate career however given the amount of sacks he got (1) for the season considering the playing time he got does not make me happy about the decision to draft him. Consider this, the sack he managed to get was against Cam Newton who was running out of the pocket, not to mention when Jordan made the tackle it was a personal foul (horse collar). Also, Jordan played in every game but but had 2 less sacks then McBride who only played in 3 games. I hope Jordan finds the ability to get to the QB or gets moved to DT.

Fantasy world:
We draft Ingram with the Jordan pick and retain our pick for the upcoming draft, look what LB is there at that position .... Hightower...

I really do hope Jordan pans out because Hightower looks to be a stud LB

Danno · 02-27-2012, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

It seems to me that many fans have had misguided beliefs about what type of players both Franklin and Jordan were/are, which has led to many expressing their disappointment at their performances when I personally think that both of them did a fine job in their respective roles.

Nailed it.

Franklin did exactly what I thought he'd do, and probably did what the coaches expected as well. Stop the run in order for our 3-tech DT's to penetrate. Franklin held up his end of the deal. Our 3-techs... not so much.

Rogers didn't play as well as I'd hoped, but he wasn't terrible either. I expected much more out of him since he was in a rotation that should have kept him fresh, but he often looked fatigued.

02-26-2012, 04:14 PM	#1
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,963	Originally Posted by halloween 65 I would let a 3/4 defense have him since we are a 4/3, he did not do well in our 4/3 and someone who could excel could earn that spot for that money. I had high hopes for the both of them, well that was all it amounted to was hope, not production. But that is the perception I was trying to disprove... Franklin produced at the level at which all the indicators - before the Saints signed him - showed he should, so I can't accept a statement like "he under performed" purely because of that fact. Franklin has never been a pass rushing DL - he has always been a run stopping DL - so if the Saints signed him to be a pass rusher, it is not Franklin's fault he didn't live up to that role. Rogers was supposed to be the one to create the interior push and pass rush out of the two FA DT signings, and that is why I would not want them to re-sign him. No matter how much we all would like to see an improvement in the interior pass rush next season, the Saints still need guys that are strong against the run, so that the opposition is forced to throw the ball. That is why I like D-linemen like Franklin and Jordan, who are very good at defending the run. It seems to me that many fans have had misguided beliefs about what type of players both Franklin and Jordan were/are, which has led to many expressing their disappointment at their performances when I personally think that both of them did a fine job in their respective roles.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

02-26-2012, 05:32 PM	#2
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Originally Posted by FinSaint But that is the perception I was trying to disprove... Franklin produced at the level at which all the indicators - before the Saints signed him - showed he should, so I can't accept a statement like "he under performed" purely because of that fact. Franklin has never been a pass rushing DL - he has always been a run stopping DL - so if the Saints signed him to be a pass rusher, it is not Franklin's fault he didn't live up to that role. Rogers was supposed to be the one to create the interior push and pass rush out of the two FA DT signings, and that is why I would not want them to re-sign him. No matter how much we all would like to see an improvement in the interior pass rush next season, the Saints still need guys that are strong against the run, so that the opposition is forced to throw the ball. That is why I like D-linemen like Franklin and Jordan, who are very good at defending the run. It seems to me that many fans have had misguided beliefs about what type of players both Franklin and Jordan were/are, which has led to many expressing their disappointment at their performances when I personally think that both of them did a fine job in their respective roles. If all you want is someone to stand the line up and get no penitration well I guess he's your man. But for me I want someboby that can penitrait and defend the run, a disruptive force so to speak, rather than settling for a one dimentional run stuffer and as I looked at the 10 he was well #10. Me I would take my chances with someone else, especially if they keep Ellis.

02-26-2012, 08:11 PM	#3
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,963	Originally Posted by halloween 65 If all you want is someone to stand the line up and get no penitration well I guess he's your man. But for me I want someboby that can penitrait and defend the run, a disruptive force so to speak, rather than settling for a one dimentional run stuffer and as I looked at the 10 he was well #10. Me I would take my chances with someone else, especially if they keep Ellis. Yes, I do see your point, and naturally I would like for the Saints to have a DT who could stop the run, create interior pass rush with sacks, pat passes down, and catch those passes for pick 6s. But, I simply can't believe that the Saints' FO didn't know what type of a DT Franklin was when they decided to make him an offer. Therefore, it is only logical to conclude that they wanted a run stuffing DT like Franklin and didn't much care if whether or not he could create interior pass rush. So, it is not about what I want, but what it seems like the Saints' FO wanted in signing a player like Franklin. Going into the season, I remember statements like this being thrown around: "Rogers and Franklin are going to attract so many double teams that Ellis will have a career year rushing the passer," but he didn't while the afore mentioned did attract their share of double teams. So, I would think that maybe the coaches were expecting the pass rush to come primarily from other players than these two big guys... maybe I'm wrong? ...or maybe it was just GW imagining Harper having 24 sacks in the season? I wouldn't mind a more 1-dimensional DT with an emphasis on anchoring the point of defense, but he would have to be partnered with either another DT who was a good pass rusher or with DEs that were able to close up the pocket from the edges. Originally Posted by blackangold I understand that Jordan was never considered a pass rushing DE during his collegiate career however given the amount of sacks he got (1) for the season considering the playing time he got does not make me happy about the decision to draft him. Consider this, the sack he managed to get was against Cam Newton who was running out of the pocket, not to mention when Jordan made the tackle it was a personal foul (horse collar). That wasn't his sack... a sack isn't given if a defensive penalty occurs during the said play. He got his sack a while after that particular play.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

02-27-2012, 04:15 PM	#5
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,963	Originally Posted by blackangold Yes, that was his only sack of the season. However, you are correct it should not have been recorded as a sack so Cam actually had zero sacks for the season.... I guess you could be right, but I seem to remember him getting another sack after that in the same game, but I'm not 100% sure about that. I doubt they would've marked that as his sack, because there was the horsecollar call against him. Maybe he had 2 half sacks or something... I really don't know, but I still think he had another tackle for a loss in that game. Anyway, for all of those who expected Jordan to be a sack machine in the NFL - this is from a Bleacherreport article that was published ahead of last year's draft: The 2011 NFL Draft Is Loaded With Sack Specialists, Which May Leave Cameron Jordan Lost In The Shuffle. In a rich draft at the DE position, Cal’s Cameron Jordan stands out as a high-level run defender. However, his pass-rushing ability (or lack thereof) may be scaring off some potential suitors. [...] Jordan totaled just 16.5 sacks in 32 starts for the Golden Bears, so there is reason to question his ability to bring consistent pressure on the QB in the pros. Whether that issue will prevent him from being a successful NFL end, though, is far from certain. Jordan’s toughness against the run makes him especially well-suited to playing end in a 3-4 setup, and there are lots of 3-4 teams in need of help on the line in this draft. While he may not appeal as much to a team that needs him to take over a game right away, teams drafting later in the first round (Green Bay springs to mind) would be happy to add a polished, hard-working DE who doesn’t necessarily show up among the league’s sack leaders. Considering the number of defensive ends who have washed out of the NFL for their inability to stop the run, Jordan could turn out to be a serious steal. NFL Draft 2011: Cameron Jordan's Pass-Rushing Ability at NFL Level a Question \| Bleacher Report The Saints knew this, and they still went after Jordan, so that tells me that they wanted a LDE, who could primarily stop the run.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

02-27-2012, 05:08 PM	#6
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Originally Posted by FinSaint The Saints knew this, and they still went after Jordan, so that tells me that they wanted a LDE, who could primarily stop the run. Agreed, just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Also, doesn't make sense to me. We are a high scoring team year in and year out. What does that mean on D; teams are going to have to pass the ball to keep up. So what do we do: we grab a run stopping DE in the draft, a run stopping DT in Franklin, a run stuffing DT in Rodgers and we let the best pass rushing DT we have walk in free agency (Hargrove). I have been frustrated as I am sure many Saints fans have about the lack of pass rush from the LDE position. First it was Grant who had one good year as a pass rusher, then Brown who came in with high hopes and failed to perform. Now I see the same thing with Jordan. In Spags D rushing the passer from the DE position is priority---worried. Worried because if Jordan and Smith are the starting DEs I see our secondary getting left out to dry all year long...

02-27-2012, 04:34 PM	#7
ScottF 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6,324	Originally Posted by blackangold Yes, that was his only sack of the season. NFL Videos: Saints defense, sack, 5-yd loss However, you are correct it should not have been recorded as a sack so Cam actually had zero sacks for the season.... I don't even have to watch the video- I remember it well- one of many favorable calls that the annointed one got. No flag on the play, and then the refs huddle up, and lo and behold, horse @#$& horse collar blackangold likes this.

02-26-2012, 06:15 PM	#8
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Originally Posted by FinSaint But that is the perception I was trying to disprove... Franklin produced at the level at which all the indicators - before the Saints signed him - showed he should, so I can't accept a statement like "he under performed" purely because of that fact. Franklin has never been a pass rushing DL - he has always been a run stopping DL - so if the Saints signed him to be a pass rusher, it is not Franklin's fault he didn't live up to that role. Rogers was supposed to be the one to create the interior push and pass rush out of the two FA DT signings, and that is why I would not want them to re-sign him. No matter how much we all would like to see an improvement in the interior pass rush next season, the Saints still need guys that are strong against the run, so that the opposition is forced to throw the ball. That is why I like D-linemen like Franklin and Jordan, who are very good at defending the run. It seems to me that many fans have had misguided beliefs about what type of players both Franklin and Jordan were/are, which has led to many expressing their disappointment at their performances when I personally think that both of them did a fine job in their respective roles. I understand that Jordan was never considered a pass rushing DE during his collegiate career however given the amount of sacks he got (1) for the season considering the playing time he got does not make me happy about the decision to draft him. Consider this, the sack he managed to get was against Cam Newton who was running out of the pocket, not to mention when Jordan made the tackle it was a personal foul (horse collar). Also, Jordan played in every game but but had 2 less sacks then McBride who only played in 3 games. I hope Jordan finds the ability to get to the QB or gets moved to DT. Fantasy world: We draft Ingram with the Jordan pick and retain our pick for the upcoming draft, look what LB is there at that position .... Hightower... I really do hope Jordan pans out because Hightower looks to be a stud LB

02-27-2012, 08:02 AM	#9
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,751	Originally Posted by FinSaint It seems to me that many fans have had misguided beliefs about what type of players both Franklin and Jordan were/are, which has led to many expressing their disappointment at their performances when I personally think that both of them did a fine job in their respective roles. Nailed it. Franklin did exactly what I thought he'd do, and probably did what the coaches expected as well. Stop the run in order for our 3-tech DT's to penetrate. Franklin held up his end of the deal. Our 3-techs... not so much. Rogers didn't play as well as I'd hoped, but he wasn't terrible either. I expected much more out of him since he was in a rotation that should have kept him fresh, but he often looked fatigued.

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