Nitpicking 101
 

I found this article entertaining:

Imperfect 10: Scouts find flaws in top picks
By Dennis Dillon

http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=2294958

Visual acuity is what allows the jeweler to spot a flaw in a diamond, the tailor to see a pinhole in a new suit and the NFL scout to uncover the slightest imperfection in any football player — even if that player is expected to be a top pick in the draft.



Most stories about pending draft selections stress the players' strengths. Tucker the tackle can block out the sun and Mercury. Quinn the quarterback can make all the throws. Wilson the wide receiver has world-class speed.


This story looks at 10 top players from a different perspective: It examines their potential impediments.


The Sporting News talked to six NFL college scouting directors (three from each conference) about quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, cornerback DeAngelo Hall, defensive end Kenechi Udeze, tight end Kellen Winslow Jr. and six others ranked among the top 20 on TSN's list of Super 99 prospects. Each plays a different position. We asked the same question about each prospect: What is the one thing that could prevent him from becoming a premier player in the NFL?....


It's interesting that one scout said of Jonathan Vilma:

Nitpicking 101
 

Good article Ice.

Nitpicking 101
 

vilmas a midget for the position he cant take the pounding for a 16 game season and he aint gonna match up good against bigger backs like jamal lewis or stephen davis. he\'ll get run over or bounce off guys. if we do take him maybe he can slow backs down enough to get help to make the stop. he wont ever be a great mlb, might be good, but not great

Nitpicking 101
 

That\'s what they all said about Ray Lewis when he came out of Miami.

When will people start to learn that size is not the end all. If a guy goes out there and plays big, who gives a damn how big he actually is. Time after time the smaller guys end up being the better than some big guy that was drafted before them.

More often than not, a smaller athlete has to learn how to play the position more than the bigger guy because that\'s the only way he\'s going to play. The bigger guys can get by on size...then they get to the NFL and if they didn\'t have the talent, they are exposed quick. The Steve Smith\'s of the world will continue to be big time players while the David Terrell\'s will just be big athletes that do nothing.

Nitpicking 101
 

i\'m with rage on this one, it comes down to mechanics and heart, you could be 6\'3\" 240lbs and if you try to tackle a guy up high you\'re gonna get shook, if you feel like a little guy and are tenative then yeah you\'re gonna get killed, there\'s a differance between a physically gifted athlete and a football player

grady jackson and hand both had the size to be run stuffers but had no heart

a guy can run 4.2 40\'s but if he can\'t run routes then he can\'t get open

spud webb was 5\'7\" and played in the nba for years

i\'m 5\'6\" 175lbs and play CB in a tackle league and i can lay the lumber on rb\'s sweeping out wide regardless off my size because i\'m not scared and i know how to tackle

vilma has just a good a chance of being great as williams who is supposedly a physical specimen, hell i would put money on vilma over williams because the knock on williams is that he is not as smart a player as vilma is

Nitpicking 101
 

That\'s a good example, but you are talking about recievers. It was a long time ago when Lewis was drafted so I can honestly say that I don\'t know what everyone has been saying about the guy before he was drafted. But you are comparing wr\'s here, guys that don\'t have to tackle or take on huge lineman. Yeah, you made a good example of Ray Lewis. Everyone knows that he is the best linebacker. There are not very Ray Lewis\' out there, in fact there is only one. That\'s Ray Lewis himself. Now I am not against drafting Vilma if Robinson and Hall are gone, but I do have my own question marks about the guy. All I am saying is that if draft Vilma, I hope he turns out to be the right choice and all that of what you saying you THINK he will turn out to be.

Nitpicking 101
 

Ok, fine. Kevin Hardy was the #2 overall pick in the 1996 draft (same one as Ray Lewis, but he isn\'t my example this time). Hardy is 6-4. But in the 5th round a very small LB by the name of Zach Thomas was selected. Who turned out better? Hardy may of had one probowl year, and he may be a pretty solid LB, but Thomas is a top 5 MLB and has been for a long time.

Nitpicking 101
 

Ok, thomas is a good example for this argument and also for another argumeant. The other argument being we can draft a good linebacker in later rounds. What I am trying to say is that not all small linebackers turn out to be Pro Bowl caliber linebackers. Every undersized linebacker drafted is a risk. Some turn out to be busts while some turn out to be stars. I hope if we draft Vilma he turns out to be better than Lewis or Thomas. But you can find guys after round 1 that can be superstars like Thomas also. As far as my view is concerned, I would really like to pick up Hall or Robinson with my first pick. If both are gone, then my choices would be Vilma or D. Williams. I feel we need a LB and CB with 2 of our first 3 picks. I just prefer Hall and Robinson over Vilma and that\'s it. I know everyone has their own opinions and I have mine. All I have to say is that looking back I hope the Saints do the right thing whether its taking Hall, Robinson, Vilma or anyone else for that matter. I just want this organization to win and I am sticking with them till the end.

Nitpicking 101
 

Boogro, if Hall and Robinson are there then I wouldn\'t be against drafting them. I don\'t think they\'ll be there. I prefer Vilma over Gamble.

I think if we get a Hall/Darryl Smith/bap combo or a Vilma/Ahmad Carrol/bap combo we will have a succesful first two rounds. I just hope there isn\'t a \"Stench-comb\" pick.

Nitpicking 101
 

Yeah, I agree. I wouldn\'t draft Gamble with our first pick. Carroll would be a good pick, but I am not sure if he falls that far.

Nitpicking 101
 

That sounds like a quote from the Mike Ditka Draft Handbook. Draft these guys:

a. With heart.
b. With no measurables from a winning college program.
c. With no measurables from a big college program.

On other words, I can teach a monkey to play a slot machine but he has to be able to reach the coin slot.

Nitpicking 101
 

In this case, weight is a non-factor. Vilma only needs about 20 more pounds to be considered legit, and with any NFL program, he can do that within two years. He\'s got the frame to add the weight. Weight should almost be a non-issue (be more concerned with how much weight can be added rather than how much is there now).

Nitpicking 101
 

Vilma was 6\'-1\", 232 lbs.
Why does everyone think this is small?
Many quality MLB in the NFL are about this size.


Starting NFL Middle Linebackers
5-11, 230 Zack Thomas, MIA
6-1, 225 Shelton Quarles, TB
6-0, 234 Mark Simeneu, PHL
6-0, 229 Robert Thomas, STL
6-1, 230 Mike Peterson, JAX

And the best middle linebacker in the NFL,
Ray Lewis 6-0 245 (came into NFL @ 225 lbs)

[Edited on 12/4/2004 by Danno]

Nitpicking 101
 

Amen to that Danno. I seem to remember a fierce LB from up around my way by the name of Singletary who was pretty fierce as a smaller guy... and lest we forget the best LB to ever wear black and gold. They called him the field mouse, and if you don\'t know then you don\'t know.

Nitpicking 101
 

yeah and huge linemen used to be 265 too. vilma would have been great if he\'d been playing with butkus. and if i had a nickle for every time i seen zach thomas get run over the last couple of year, i\'d be havin dinner at commander\'s every night.

Nitpicking 101
 

Yeah, I\'d bet all the money in the world that Mills could still be a great linebacker, even in \"today\'s\" NFL.

Nitpicking 101
 

Damn right.

Nitpicking 101
 

OK...here is what i dont get...If all of you are pretty much dead set that Hall and Robinson and gonna be gone when we pick and you all believe that Vilma is gonna be there...then why would you be upset if the Saints would draft one of CB\'s over Vilma? If Vilma were as good as rAGE says he is...he would be a top 5 pick. I like Vilma, i really do, but the guy is not Ray Lewis and i dont like the comparison. Until he wins the SuperBowl, wins defensive MVP awards...establishes his mark of dominance...and stabs 2 or 3 people...I dont want to hear the argument. I think Hall and Robinson are safer picks than Vilma and you must too because you think they will be gone and Vilma will still be there. Who is to say that Keyaron Fox wont be better than Vilma and that Keith Smith wont be better than Hall and Robinson. None of us know and i cant wait for the draft so i can stop hearing about Vilma. rAGE should be the guy\'s agent because he does a good job of talking him up but i am still not sold on him. I wouldnt mind him in black and gold but hearing all this is making me dislike the guy already.

Nitpicking 101
 

I seriously doubt that Vilma will be there past 12. He is a stud and will be a great LB in the NFL.

There are a lot of different senerios and they change every hour... but take a look at our (B&G Mock Draft).

[Edited on 14/4/2004 by Euphoria]

Nitpicking 101
 

He\'s not a top 10 pick because of his size. If he was 10lbs bigger, he would be a top 10 lock and possibly even a top 5 lock (with the redskins or lions probably taking him).

I think the corners will be gone first because there are teams who need them more than they need a MLB. Corners are NEVER safer picks than LB\'s. Actually corners are about the biggest risk you can take in a draft. The only thing that comes close are WR\'s and QB\'s.

Nitpicking 101
 

OK rAGE, lets play this game...Say you are the GM of a team. If you have two corners, who apparently play a position that is of high risk, on one hand...and then on the other hand you have a linebacker, who with an added 10 pounds immediately becomes the best LB in the game. Which route do you go? I know which way you would go in fantasy land...but in reality, why is it that teams who have equal need at both positions, would go with the corner instead. And i dont care who is on my team, if there is a guy in the draft that can put on 10 pounds and be an elite linebacker overnight, i draft him right off the bat. The point i am making is that you see something in Vilma that paid professionals just dont see. I know the guy can be a good one, but the guy will not be Ray Lewis. He may be a Nate Webster...he might be a Zach Thomas...he might be a Chris Bordano. I just dont see how you can make that strong a case for a guy that you know is gonna be around at the 18th pick.

Nitpicking 101
 

Not that I\'m comparing the two, but Ray Lewis was the 26th pick.

Nitpicking 101
 

Exactly. Ray Lewis wasn\'t even Ray Lewis coming out of college. People seem to forget that he was not a top 10 pick, he wasn\'t even a top 20 pick. And he was a player that is damn near exactly like Vilma is right now.

And here is another argument for you, look at the likes of Jerry Rice, Randy Moss & Marvin Harrison. I know these are all WR\'s, but they all went mid-first round and that shows that half the time the scouting teams base too much on how much of an athelte or how much potential a guy has and not how productive that player is. There are countless guys who slip through the cracks every year for idiotic reasons. Vilma\'s reason - he is 233lbs. It\'s a stupid reason not to select somebody, but that is exactly why he is not a top 10 pick. It has nothing to do with how talented the guy is.

Nitpicking 101
 

I\'ve said it before and I\'ll say it again, Vilma reminds me more of Dan Morgan or Dat Nguyen than he does Ray Lewis. Vilma has good quickness and instincts, and he will probably be a success in the NFL. But I haven\'t seen him play with the intensity and pride of a guy like Ray Lewis.

Lewis is a great leader, a guy who makes people around him better. From what I\'ve seen, Vilma isn\'t really that kind of guy. Like Dan Morgan or Nguyen, Vilma has the skills to succeed even though he is undersized. I just have never seen enough to show me that he will be one of the games great linebackers.

Nitpicking 101
 

There are alot of people that would disagree with you on Vilma. He is very cerebral and has been referred to as a natural leader on defense. If you don\'t believe me, so a search on the web, and you will find others that agree with those sentiments.

Nitpicking 101
 

I\'ve also heard reports that Lewis\'s teammates are getting a bit tired of the rah-rah in your face arrogance of Ray Lewis. They are tired of him getting credit for so called \"making everyone else around him better\". There would still be many outstanding players on that team regardless of Ray Lewis. Ozzie and Savage have done an excellent job of assembling a very talented roster.

Nitpicking 101
 

I am pretty sure that there have been a good share of undersized LB\'s taken in the middle of round one or even in possibly in round two or three that turned out to be better than average LB\'s. I am sure that a lot of them turned out to be bouncers at a college night club. My point is if everyone were so dead set on this guy having Ray Lewis potential, and him being a clone of some sort, same height, weight, college, and everything else...then why is it a toss up as to whether or not he is the best LB in this class? Also, if the Saints have confidence in Cie Grant to be the speedy undersized LB to man the middle, why would we need another one? You cant just give up on a 3rd round pick in his second year for another guy who pretty much fits the same mold.

Nitpicking 101
 

You can not compare Cie Grant to Jon Vilma. Grant was (is) very raw and doesn\'t know how to play the position. You could always move him to WLB anyway.

Nitpicking 101
 

I am with Jimbone. It seems everybody has a draft history almanac right infront of them when they talk. Who cares who went 26th in 1998 draft and 50th in the 2000 draft? That\'s all a bunch of crap. These prospects go through the Combine where they look at every little thing on a players anatomy, run them through drills, interview them, give wonderlic tests etc etc. Now all of the best coaches, scouts, and everyone else to do with an organizion and testing every player invited\'s abilities. Now, if a person like Vilma comes along and everyone there says \"He\'s a bit undersized\", you might believe them. Hell, I do. These guys are the best at what they do and that is study football players. Now, of course they are not always right. There are busts and there are diamonds in the rough. Also, these scouts have been watching these guys all year long, go to their schools workout days and everything else. Would you give these guys just a little credit? You know, you can compare every player coming out to a guy in the NFL in the same position with the same height and weight and say \"Well this guy is sucessful so this guy is a sure bet. He\'s going to be Ray Lewis.\" All of these so called \"experts\" and scouts deserve a little credit. If oyu have your heart set on a certain player, no matter what anyone else says about him, then fine, say he is the greatest thing to come alone since Ray Lewis. I just know I am not buying it.

[Edited on 14/4/2004 by Boogro]

Nitpicking 101
 

Here are some examples of the great job all of your experts have been doing.

1998 Draft
Ryan Leaf, Washington State, 6-5, 261 2nd pick
Passed for almost 4,000 yards and threw 33 touchdown passes as he led Washington State to its first Rose Bowl appearance since 1931. Leaf has a stronger arm and seems to be a more natural passer then Manning.

Curtis Enis, Penn State, 6-1, 242 5th pick
Powerful runner with speed, good hands, and quick feet. A complete back who can catch the ball out of the backfield and pass block.

Andre Wadsworth, Florida State, 6-3 5/8, 270 3rd pick
Best pass rusher in the draft. A great athlete and competitor who always works hard and never stops giving 110%. Excels with both a hard inside and a quick outside pass rush. Should be the number three player taken in the draft.

RB Blair Thomas (2) Penn State-New York Jets-1990
WR Desmond Howard(4) Michigan-Washington Redskins-1992
TE Ricky Dudley(9) Ohio State-Houston Oilers-1996
OT Tony Mandarich(2) Michigan State-Green Bay Packers-1989
OG Eugene Chung(13) Virginia Tech-New England Patriots-1992
DE Aundray Bruce(1) Auburn-Atlanta Falcons-1988
DT Steve Emtman(1) Washington-Indianapolis Colts-1992
LB Brian Bosworth(2) Oklahoma-Seattle Seahawks-1987
CB Bruce Pickens(3) Nebraska-Atlanta Falcons-1991
S Patrick Bates (12) Texas A&M-Los Angeles Raiders-1993
QB Heath Schuler (3) Tennessee-Washington Redskins-1994
RB Lawrence Philips (6) Nebraska-St. Louis Rams-1995
WR Michael Westbrook (4) Colorado-Washington Redskins-1995
TE David LaFluer(22) LSU-Dallas Cowboys-1997
OT Antoine Davis(8) Tennessee-Philadelphia Eagles-1991
OG Brian Jozwiak(7) West Virginia-Kansas City Chiefs-1986
DT Dimitrius Underwood(29) Michigan State-MinnesotaVikings-1999
LB Percy Snow(13) Michigan State-Kansas City Chiefs-1990
CB Michael Booker(11) Nebraska-Atlanta Flacons-1997
S Shaun Williams(24) UCLA-New York Giants-1998

My point is that this is not an exact science. Nobody knows how good these players will be at the next level. The above is a list of busts. I\'m sure we could make a list just as long of players that weren\'t supposed to be very good and ended up playing very well. There is no reason to think that because some of us disagree with the \"experts\" that we have no idea about a player. This is all conjecture anyway.

Quote:
Also, these scouts have been watching these guys all year long, go to their schools workout days and everything else. Would you give these guys just a little credit?

I happen to be a \'Canes fan and have been watching them all year. I saw all but one game they played this year. My opinion is probably a little biased, I admit. But I\'ll say this, Sean Taylor is the best player in this draft, period. Wilfork is the best DT in this draft, I think. DJ Williams and Vilma are two excellent LBs and I\'d be very happy to see either wearing the Black and Gold, because I think they will help this defense sooner rather than later like our past LB selections.

This is fun. :D

Nitpicking 101
 

As I said before, there are going to be busts. If there weren\'t any busts than the draft would be simple right? It\'s great that you watches all of the Miami games last year and I watch just about all of LSU\'s. I could agree with you on Taylor, the guy is a ball player. I think Lavalais should have gone in round 1 because he just gets it done and played exceptionately well. That\'s just from watching LSU. Ok man, you have your list of a top 15 players in your mind coming out right? Put a list down of your Mock draft and then we could go back and see who\'s a bust at the end of the year. I was jsut trying to make my point earlier about Vilma being undersized. I wasn\'t saying it by looking at the guy, but every guy that\'s written something on him or draft pages I have seen said, \"He\'s a bit undersized\". That\'s it.

Nitpicking 101
 

I am not buying into Vilma like you guys are and i am not saying that i am right or wrong, but there hasnt been one draft that didnt have busts and steals. The fact is that a lot of those guys were successfull or busts for that matter because of the system that they play in. Linebackers are probably the biggest example. Some systems allow players to flourish and make plays more than others do.

And back to the Cie Grant comparison...it is every bit as accurate as the Ray Lewis comparison. The fact is that both are undersized coming out of college. I will give Vilma the edge in that he has played the position more than Grant did, but they are pretty much the same player. Grant could become a Ray Lewis type. Now, before anything starts, let me say that i dont think Grant will be a Ray Lewis type, but i dont think Vilma will be either. I just think that it doesnt make much sense to have to undersized LB\'s who\'s strengths and weaknesses are virtually the same.