Musings...........
 

The Saints continue to do the same thing over, over, and over again in the draft and expect a different outcome. This is called insanity. Where is all the development of young players the Saints have drafted? Projects? Haz has a problem evaluating talent...plain and simple.

With definite needs, the Saints organization (not just Haz) continues to show their ineptness during these opportune times. Stockpiling draft choices for next year only to do their normal POOR job in the draft supports this premise...it is time for a change in the front office, coaching, and maybe OWNERSHIP. Sorry, but a DL coach will not make the difference as some suspect.

BTW; bringing in someone like McKenzie will only add fuel to the fire with AB and Horn. McKenzie wants a new contract that pays him more than anyone else at his position. The spoiled only want what interest themselves, and neither AB, Horn, or McKenzie are near the top at their positions. What these individual want is WEALTH...for themselves which supports their HUGE egos. There were times last year when Horn and AB did not even TALK. Were is the teamwork?

As for Law, he supports the premise of being a prima dona. He attempts to outrun the law in South Beach with his Rolls Royce. His judgement was clouded for just a minute! We just got rid of a clouded judgement guy in Dale Carter! Please spare me with the thought of bringing Law to the Saints.

I only ask that you guys spare me the AB accolades. He should be replaced and hopefully soon. Individual statistics aside, look at the W/L column. He should sleep with a football to see if that would help him hold onto the pigskin.

I say this will all due respect to the many Saints fans, posters here, and all IMO.

Musings...........
 

Biloxi--You have some keen observations. At this point, I\'m not even sure how I\'d attempt to salvage the coming season. The only upbeat scenarios I can come up with involve getting Trotter and a corner after June 1.

I\'m not really optimistic about the 3 suggested trades for a CB that have proliferated on this board for the past month because I don\'t have much confidence that the organization is willing to shell out the coin to get either Law or Woodson who are worth big money, or McKenzie, who thinks he is worth that kind of money.

As for the Brooks situation, you\'re right. Barring the coaching of someone like Denny Green or Jim Fassel, we are stuck with the equivalent of Jeff George. Brooks continues to repeat the same drive killing mistakes that he has made from the beginning. I think the only way to keep him from backing out of his protection is to assign Gash to block Brooks forward into the pocket. The fumbling could probably be fixed, but Brooks is so convinced that he is an elite talent, that you can\'t coach him out of his ruinous habits. Likewise, he is either unable/unwilling to read a defense. He is a classic \"me-first\" kind of guy. This is a terminal condition and cannot be fixed. His ego does not permit him to see the team until he needs someone to blame for his own stupid decisions. Lastly, he couldn\'t lead a group of drunken sailors on shore leave to a brothel in the Philippines, much less an NFL offense.

Otherwise, I don\'t see us being any better than 1 game off of .500 as a best case scenario for the coming season. So on that note, I\'m re-posting:

A 7 Step Plan for Managing your NFL franchise, by the New Orleans Saints:

Step 1--Hey! Great news! __________ is going to be a free agent this year. He\'s a really great _____________ (CB, LB, DT, etc). With our cap room, maybe we can sign him.

Step 2--OK, so we didn\'t really sign anyone in free agency. No biggie, we\'re being smart with our money. Our front office must be targeting a __________ (CB, LB) through this year\'s draft.

Step 3--OK, so the guys we drafted didn\'t make a lot of sense, but now we have great depth. We must have one of the premier ________ (O-line, WR corps, D-Line) in the whole league. We will be able to run on anyone and have great run defense. Now that we have the fundamentals in place, we are poised to make a great pick-up for reasonable money with the June 1 cuts. _________ is a great _________ (CB, LB) and he\'s going to be released. I bet he ends up in black and gold.

Step 4--OK, so we didn\'t pick any over priced, over rated June 1 cut. If they were so great, they wouldn\'t have gotten cut right? We don\'t need them anyway. We already have _________ (Stallworth, Williams, Stinchcomb, Mitchell, Craver, Sullivan) and this year he is really going to emerge into a dominant pro-bowl kind of player. And we still have veteran leadership in _____________ (Bellamy, Ambrose, Smith, Conwell) and they haven\'t lost a step like the morons at _____________ (espn, sportsline, si, fox, the TP) have been saying. I\'m really optimistic heading into the season.

Step 5--How the heck are we 2-6? With all this talent, we should be an elite team headed for the playoffs.

Step 6--This is kind of a rebuilding year ____________ (Stallworth, Williams, Brooks, Sullivan, Grant) just needs time to develop. These are all pro caliber guys just underachieving. Besides if ____________ wasn\'t hurt, we\'d be a shoe-in for the playoffs.

Step 7--I\'m so excited that ____________ (elite CB or LB) is going to be a free agent this year. With all this cap space, we\'re sure to make a big splash in free agency. But even if we don\'t there\'s _____________ (CB) and ___________(LB) coming out in the draft and they are just studs. Plus we have 3 picks in the top 55. We\'re going to put the last couple of pieces in the puzzle to make our big playoff run, next year.

[Edited on 30/4/2004 by BrooksMustGo]

Musings...........
 

BMG,

Given the INSANITY of the Saints organization I have little doubt they will do something on June 1. The problem I see is that they end up with another over the hill indivdual who demands a high salary and little or no output for the investment. We have a number of June 1 guys who are either too slow, not fast enough, lost a step, or lack the ability to tackle a blocking sled.

We have so many PROJECTS, one would think the Saints are located in the Desire Housing Project!

Your steps are interesting, but until there is a change in either the personnel running this organization...we have INSANITY among us.

All IMO.

INSANITY=Continue to do the same thing over, over, and over again and expect a different outcome!

Musings...........
 

and as crappy as we played last yr, had we beat carolina twice, the bucks and the jags, (very winable games) the good luck fans woulda been shouting......just exactly how bad were we? or better yet, how close were we with a (to say the least, a questionable defense and a sputtering offense) to making the playoffs? 2003? history? yes....
2004? yet to be written........swamee

Musings...........
 

swamee, coming close counts in horseshoes and throwing handgrenades. Should have, could have, and would have...seems to be the order of the day and a level the Saints organization is satisfied with. As a fan, I AM NOT.

Musings...........
 

Boy, life is just a big fat crap burger with a side of misery fries ain\'t it?

Musings...........
 

Only if you have had a steady diet of them since the Saints inception! Even McD\'s changes their menu once in awhile to keep CUSTOMERS.

I guess some can accept the status quo.

Musings...........
 

A better draft than we had last year, and people act like it is the end of the world. Sometimes in the draft, things don\'t play out the way you intend them to, and you have to make do with what you have.
Free agency, on the other hand, was wretched.

Musings...........
 

Not the end of the world, but I am hoping for the dawning of a new day (or should I say ERA)! The draft is only a microcosmn of the problems in Saints organization...and it starts at the TOP.

I believe we all understand the Saints have PROJECTS on the team, but what they fail to understand is projects require a PROJECT MANAGER!

I wonder what Haz been will be added after June 1?

Just show me a light, some light, any light, at the end of this long tunnel!

Musings...........
 

B&B is largely right.

Free agency was an abysmal fiasco--per usual. When you sit on your hands during free agency, you paint yourself into a corner on draft day. If we had bothered to sign 1 quality corner and a decent LB, then this draft would be a raging success. The front office hopelessly mismanaged free agency, gambled on a CB or LB falling to #18 and lost.

So we recovered OK, but still have gaping holes that continue to go neglected.

So in that respect Biloxi is right too. It is insane to REFUSE to address the CB or LB position and then act surprised when they don\'t perform so well.

Musings...........
 

This is a fictional quote from Tom Benson

Mickey \"The Mouse\" Loomis - \"Mr. Benson we had a .500 season went 8-8 and missed the playoffs again. The fans are getting restless and are saying that we need to make a change in Coaching, Managment, and Ownership what do we do\".

Tom \"No CB\" Benson - \" Lets sell some cars\".

Musings...........
 

Look, everyone here (or who cheers for the boys in the Black and Gold) agrees that we need a Corner. Exactly how bad is the situation? IT IS NOT THAT BAD. We have three serviceable corners (Thomas, Craft, Brown), we have decent players for the nickle and dime positions (Craver, Ambrose). This is a patchwork group, sure, but they don\'t suck. If we have a good pass rush and decent Linebackers this year, our defense will stop some people - we must rely on the offense to produce! It is conceivable with our offense to simply outscore people.

I was recently convinced (right here on this board) that our bigger problem might be at the Safety postion. I don\'t think that Jones sucks, contrary to popular belief, but who do we have after that? Bellamy, what is he, 90? Gleason? He\'s no starter in the NFL. Mitchell? Hasn\'t recovered yet. We have NO ONE ELSE. Thus, if people want to complain, why shouldn\'t they focus on this problem.

Calm down people. If we\'re .500 this year, then what? You\'re gonna give up on the team? I doubt it. If it takes one more year to get a secondary, I\'ll be cheezed, but that is better than starting fresh AGAIN. We\'re only a few pieces of the puzzle away! ;)

Musings...........
 

>This is a patchwork group, sure, but they don\'t suck. If we have a good pass rush and decent Linebackers this year, our defense will stop some people - we must rely on the offense to produce! It is conceivable with our offense to simply outscore people. <

If, IF and BUTS were candy and nuts it would be Christmas every day! Soooo many variables and qualifiers that I fail to understand the point you attempt to make.

Look, we can rationalize almost anything with the Saints organization. A good, poor, or even a fair draft...it is all in the eye of the beholder! A good defense line, or one in development. A lineback group which is a project with a CB group that needs someone we don\'t have. A safety that was hurt or his replacement we accept with reservations.

In the final analysis, we all share the IF\'s and BUT\'s. The proof of the pudding (no pun intended) is the W/L column. Management shares in the results we have experienced in the past as well as the future. Right now, for me the jury is still out on Haz and Benson. AB is not a leader! I know, this will draw the ire of some die hards.

I have stated this previously...give BOUMAN a true opportunity without the predjuce!

INSANITY= doing the same thing over, over, and over again and expecting a different outcome!

Musings...........
 

B-I,

Either it is in the eye of the beholder or it is in the puddin\'. It can\'t be both.

You were the one who started this thread with a complaint about the poor draft. Thus, it seems that you think it is in the eye of the beholder - so why bother discussing it? Do you just like to share your opinion? Even when you think that no one should care about your opinion, since what they think will simply depend on their eye?

If it is in the puddin\', then why complain about the draft? You claim that the only thing that matters is W/L; well, the draft has no Ws or Ls. Thus, you cannot have a bad draft, only bad seasons (since those are the only things measured in Ws and Ls)? What does AB\'s leadership matter? It certainly isn\'t measured in Ws and Ls. I\'m sure you didn\'t mean that only Ws and Ls matter. You surely believe that things matter to getting Ws and Ls and that those are worth discussing, right?

My point was that if you\'re going to complain about our CBs, you need to also be concerned about our LBs and our Ss. You don\'t get one without the others in this case. My point is more b--ching should be directed to our lack of Ss than has been, given the current negativity over our CB corps. Further, since the production of our CBs will depend greatly on our pass rush, which is good, it is less cause for alarm that our CBs aren\'t spectacular than it would be otherwise.

I guess, I\'m just sick of people making fun of \"if,then\" reasoning, since it wouldn\'t make sense to post ANYTHING on this board if you didn\'t. We\'re all armchair GMs, Scouts, and Coaches, otherwise this wouldn\'t be fun.

Musings...........
 

I don\'t believe we are in great position this year. I suspect this year will be about the same as the last. Last year was not about luck (good or bad). Last year was about our \"stars\" making rookie mistakes. It was about our \"leader\" allegedly fixing some areas of his lousy game, but then developing new and innovative ways to lose for us. Last year was about our \"projects\" still not developing into anything worthwhile. Last year was about being outcoached. As we\'ve had no real changes in players, or coaching - I can\'t see this year being much different than last.

Many people write here about how great our team looks this year. I\'ve been reading this board for a long time now. These people are the same ones who said this last year. When it didn\'t pan out the way they saw it, it was all about injuries and excuses. They jumped all over the people who predicted it accurately, calling them \"pessimist\" or worse; coming up with some theory about how the \"optimists\" were somehow \"brave\" or \"noble\" for saying we were gonna go 12-6. They would imply that those who said 9-7 were \"playing it safe\", almost as if the \"pessimists\" were basing their predictions on some fear of negative opinion, rather than study and personal experience.

The facts are we did NOTHING in FA. Our draft was allegedly a great \"value\" draft, but it didn\'t do anything to help this team in the areas we were hurting. Here come the June 1 cuts and after the last two opportunities to improve this team wasted, I simply cannot get optimistic about the decisions of management on this team.

Musings...........
 

We needed a Linebacker - we got two (maybe three if W.Smith plays OLB). How can you say that we didn\'t address our needs in the draft, just because we didn\'t get a CB?

I don\'t see what pessimism or optimism has to do with anything; I agree that people should stop making fun of each other on those grounds. While there appears to be a healthy division in point of view among the regulars on this board, they seem to simply enjoy poking fun at each other in that way (so I don\'t complain about it).

Furthermore, I don\'t see how anyone could have predicted injuries to key people (like Mitchell and Howard) or that Brooks would suddenly develop a fumbling problem. Is it your veiw that the \"pessimists\" correctly predicted things like 9-7 (though I don\'t see that as a pessimistic prediction at all) saw those things coming and the \"optimists\" are fools because they didn\'t? The disagreement in whether or not the team would be 10-6 rather than 6-10 was about whether or not (given reasonable parameters) with the guys we had (including coaches) given our schedule could win 10 games or only 6.

In FA we aquired a quality DT (Young) to fill our last gap on the DL. IS that NOTHING, or just nothing?

[Edited on 2/5/2004 by JKool]

Musings...........
 

let me get this straight sir.....
when you add depth, you do nothing for your team, is that what you\'re saying?
and as far as injuries, exactly which team were you watching?
granted, we did suck on defense and made many mistakes on offense(which in my opinion, did prevent us from making the playoffs)
now, just for the sake of discussion, who would you have taken in the draft?
who would you have taken in free agency?
and where was this money magicly coming from?
i\'m not saying we don\'t need to improve, we do.......
however, like some on this board, i am not for making quick decisions anymore....
they have not panned out very well for us in the past.........
swamee

Musings...........
 

This is the best post I\'ve seen here in a year. Bravo FF. My hat is off to you.



Being a pessimist, I\'ll try to answer this. No one here is suggesting that they can see the future. I predicted 8-8 or 9-7 at the beginning of last season. I can\'t remember anyone else predicting 9-7 or worse. In fact, I was called \"the most negative person\" someone here had ever met, and another name for a cat starting with a P for those comments.

Those who thought the Saints would do better saw few problems, and where they saw problems they gave the benefit of the doubt. Whether it was hope, a belief in this coaching staff and team, or whatever else, when we questioned Ruff, they said he will help. When we questioned the Sullivan pickup, they defended it. When I suggested the offense would fall off from last year they scoffed and wrote me off as completely insane.

The Saints have had the same basic problems for the last three years. For the last three years the coaches have made changes here and changes there but none of them have worked. Many of us want them to work. Some of the current \"pessimists\" believed they would and have been burned by lost hope. Now, we see the question marks and ask, why will it get any better? Nothing in the past shows that it will, so all you have to go on is faith and hope. Well, faith and hope don\'t win football games. Good players and good coaches do, and we just don\'t have the right combination of those.

Musings...........
 

Best post in over a year? WhoDat, come on.

You agree with this?
Quote: The facts are we did NOTHING in FA. Our draft was allegedly a great \"value\" draft, but it didn\'t do anything to help this team in the areas we were hurting. (FF)

As for the teams track record of failure of the last three years, no one disputes that. It always seemed to me that the debate was over the causes of the problem. I agree that FA and the draft feel eerily familiar to last year, but I guess I just don\'t see it as the same. If we have new problems, potentials, players, attitudes, whatever, then it is possible that things will end up differently this year. Is there cause for concern? Hell yeah (no CB - come on, EVERYONE knows we need one).

I guess I just resist arguments of the following form: We sucked last year, we sucked the year before, we sucked the year before that, and so on; therefore, we will suck this year. We all agree that this is not a good argument because \"sucking\" is not transitive in this way - there are many reasons we could suck (if we do indeed suck) and if those reasons are not the same in each premise of this argument, there is little reason to believe the conclusion.

We both know that your (WhoDat\'s) arguments are better than \"we sucked, so we will suck again\" - I think that it just sounds like that to some people. I always thought the fun of the oposition (for example the silly Moonshiner vs. Sunshiner stuff) was to tease out the actual reasons for our situation - this will help us (1) understand Football better, (2) make better predictions, (3) get our hopes up when reasonable, (4) gripe when reasonable, and (5) enjoy the sport we all love (and the fun discussion that goes with it).

[Edited on 4/5/2004 by JKool]

Musings...........
 

JKool,

I believe putting a puzzle together requires vision and the ability to place the right parts in the right place. Maybe, just maybe, one can relate the \"eye of the beholder\" (vision)and \"proof of the puddin\" (placing the right parts in the right place to match the vision) to the analogy of a puzzle. Just maybe it can be both...what do you think?

If I understand your point... since \"we\" did not create the vision, nor do we place the piece parts in place...we have no right to question those that did and do. Sounds to me like a \"herd\" mentality!

As for this thread...I believe I started it with MUSINGS=contemplative=contempate=to ponder...or maybe better put...does not accept a \"herd\" mentality!

I guess most of us are sick and tired of being sick and tired every year with the Saints organization. If that is bit----- then I am bit-----. It is the constant \"wait until next year\" mantra that causes me to ponder, contemplate, muse...INSANITY....continue doing the same thing, over, over, and over again and expect a different outcome.

Musings...........
 

B-I,

I hope you didn\'t think that I was questioning the goodness of musings!? In fact, if it were not for musings, we would not get at the truth of things. I very much enjoyed your musings; I just thought that some of them were a bit off track (i.e. merely musings). It is not clear to me that anyone here is accepting the \"herd mentality\"; but I believe that is why discussion on this board is lively and fun.

I agree that it requires vision to put the right pieces in the right places. I think your idea is interesting. However, as it stands, it sounds like this: opinion is nothing more than opinion VERSUS there are some facts of the matter. I think, as you seem to, that opinion and facts of the matter are related. This makes some opinions better than others (the opinions that are closer to the truth are better - it is that which makes us discuss things). Thus, in some sense, it is both. I think we may have been merely disagreeing about what constitutes the puddin\' - I don\'t think the only way to evaluate the goodness of a team is W/Ls.

The point that WhoDat and I may disagree about (though I\'m not sure of this) is that we are doing the same thing over and over again. Notice that our draft this year and last year did not seem to address glaring needs. However, this does not mean that we did the same thing both years. In fact, this year, unlike last year, we drafted \"character\" players. Also, our needs are not the same this year as they were last year, and so on. Thus, when you claim that we are doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, some people (myself included, I guess) will say that we are not doing the SAME thing each year - it only looks the same on the broadest of scopes.

Musings...........
 

JKool - I\'m not saying that we sucked last year, therefore we will suck this year. I am saying that we sucked last year because of X, Y, and Z - problems that have been consistent over a longer period of time (e.g. we haven\'t been able to stop the run in two or three years). I don\'t feel that we\'ve done anything to improve those areas - just as in past years. Don\'t get me wrong, we made moves, but we made the wrong moves.

Look, coming into free agency this season we needed basically the same things we needed last off-season. A stud MLB, a stud corner, and another big body at DT to stop the run. We got a small body at DT, no experienced LB who is likely to make an impact THIS season, and no CB of the caliber we need. Just like last year when we \'addressed\' those same needs with Sullivan, Ruff, and Ambrose, the moves we made this year are not enough. Thus, again, I believe you\'re likely to see similar play and next year I bet we\'ll all be saying - so we need a DT, LB, and CB.

Musings...........
 

JKool

You are correct in that I was only expressing opinions. Almost every Saints fan I know personally has one or two! :,))

I do believe with better understanding we are agreeing to disagree on certain topics. One for sure is the \"goodness\" of a team. IMO, most teams start with the basic premise they HOPE to have a winning season with a goal of making the playoffs. Notice I did not say the Super Bowl. Winning season, making the playoffs, means W/L\'s. Whether we like it or not, if we place all the great players on one team who do not having a positive W/L record... correlates to nothing more than \"wait til next year\"!

As for the this years draft...we have yet to see one of our choices play a down on the field. What position Smith will play, or will Watson be that good is only conjecture at this point in time. However, as you so aptly put it...\"in the broadest scope\" relates to the musings that leadership, vision, and focus are needed by those who make these picks year after year. That responsibility is reserved for the scouts, coaches, management, and owner! This is where INSANITY resides...IMO.

I listened intently on draft day to the radio as I was traveling. I enjoyed the discussion by Charlie Waters of Cowboy fame. He discussed the draft and the events leading up to a draft by a team. Whereas the discussion was focused on Dallas passing on three of the \"best\" RB\'s available...his point was that scouts, coaches, management, and owner have gone over the draft and its many possibilities a 100 times over leading to draft day. Trust me when I say the people of Dallas are QUESTIONING that move as well (NOTE; I now live in Dallas and am NOT remotely a Cowboy fan!). The point being, if Waters is accurate, then the Saints had a plan and they chose Will Smith with a purpose in mind. We just do not know the plan!

To pass on glaring needs for another questionable selection...only causes those of us who do not accept the \"herd\" mentality to question the INSANITY of it all.

BTW; I do agree there are other glaring holes that need to be addressed. I just chose to MUSE on the ones I did. I will save my opinions or musings on injuries for a later time.

Thank you for the discussion...I enjoy the sharing of ideas and opinions...and we can agree to disagree.

Musings...........
 

WhoDat,

I knew you had a good argument (or at least not the one I presented); I think that alot of disagreement comes from people hearing others arguments as though they have the form I laid out.

I think, for the most part we agree, but we have in the past discussed the following: \"not being able to stop the run\" is a single problem. I\'m wondering what you think about this: \"not being able to stop the run\" is a compound problem - that is, one day you can\'t stop the run because your DTs are out of shape, another day they are playing fine but your MLB is injured, another day it is the DEs not cutting off escape routes... and so on? Of course, these problems are usually all occurring together, but it is possible that some days it is one and not another.

I agree that we we need to get a good CB, DT, and LB to address the remaining problems on the defense. Perhaps we disagree on how well these concerns have been addressed or how bad certain concerns are? I can\'t tell if we do.

Are you really of the view that we have not properly addressed the need for a LB? We did expend a second round draft pick, and we have several players who are probably about ready to be impact players (Grant and maybe Allen)? Sure we\'re not studs at this position, but no team has great units at every position. Is seems plausible to me that next year we\'ll be saying, \"ok, so we need a CB\", but I don\'t see reason to despair in the other two listed areas.

[Edited on 4/5/2004 by JKool]

Musings...........
 

B-I,

Interesting stuff. Though, I\'m not sure what you think we disagree on at this point.

It is perfectly reasonable to question our draft selections - everyone is doing that. I think I was just questioning whether or not we could say that the draft was \"poo\" (as one of our other members likes to put things) on the grounds you were giving (e.g. W/L record). I guess, I\'m not pleased with the draft we had, but I guess I\'m not really upset right now either.

Here is a question for us to muse upon: if we made your hypothetical team of the best players in the league and due to poor coaching the team went 6-10, would that team be JUST AS BAD as a team made up of the worst players and due to good coaching went 6-10? Both have the same record, but I\'m inclined to think that we would not say that they are equally bad.

Musings...........
 

JKool,

<Here is a question for us to muse upon: if we made your hypothetical team of the best players in the league and due to poor coaching the team went 6-10, would that team be JUST AS BAD as a team made up of the worst players and due to good coaching went 6-10? Both have the same record, but I\'m inclined to think that we would not say that they are equally bad.>

Good question you ask, and I am sure it will spur on a debate. For me, neither is acceptable as a W/L of 6-10 is unacceptable. In one case we have players not achieving their full potential due to a coach, and in the other we have marginal players playing above their head due to the motivation of a good coach...however, in one case you have a coach to replace and on the other you most likely have any number of marginal players to replace. One would take less time than the other...all IMO.

Musings...........
 

No, I am of the opinion that we have not properly addressed the LB position.

Think about it. At DT we have sure things, right? We know Grant and Howard are very good players. If they\'re not around, Whitehead is a capable backup. Throw in Smith and Melvin Williams and they\'re loaded there.

Compare that to LB. It\'s not that we have a shortage of LB. It\'s that those we have are inadequate. Maybe they\'ll prove me wrong this year. I sincerely hope that they do. However, Hodge and Allen have both had a lot of time to learn in game experience and they still haven\'t put it together. Smith is old. Rodgers is old. Ruff was pretty unimpressive when I saw him. Grant is unproven and was not a true LB in college. Other than that we have a rookie. So to me that equates to underachieving, underachieving, old, old, bad, young and inexperienced, rookie. That doesn\'t inspire a ton of optimism for me.

[Edited on 4/5/2004 by WhoDat]

[Edited on 4/5/2004 by WhoDat]

Musings...........
 

I\'m not sure much debate will be spurred, since I think you\'ve given a solid answer.

However, it seems to me that \"unacceptable\" is different from \"bad\" - I think we\'ll agree that missing the playoffs means failing in a fairly important team goal. Being \"bad\", I think, is made up of, and decided by, many things (including how easy it might be to fix the problem) other than just W/L records. Thus, a W/L record is not the only way to evaluate a team.

Musings...........
 

I didn\'t say this team was bad - I said it was mediocre. ;)

The coaches are bad, IMO, b/c the team has had the talent (and resources to acquire more impact players) to be better than their record for the last three seasons. Certainly the last two.

My beef with the coaches and front office all relate to mismanagement. They have passed on many very good players in FA despite having a lot of money available under the cap. They have made questionable decisions in the draft. They have made questionable decisions to play certain players. Even despite all these mistakes this team is still one of the most talented to ever wear black and gold. Even with all this talent they are undisciplined and can\'t step their game up to the next level. Part of the problem is players, but the lion share can all be traced back to the coaches (and Loomis).

Musings...........
 

My bad.

I agree. FA was a serious let down for at least the second year in a row. What is wrong with spending some cash on a big name proven player!

Let\'s get a CB... soon... please!!!!

Musings...........
 

JKool,

When speaking of W/L not being a good measure of performance I am reminded of a discussion I once had with an employee of a company I consult with. The discussion went something like this...money is not the only motivator, but it is one of the biggest, along with recognition and job satisfaction. I am sure you can correlate the same to the Saints organization!

W/L is a measure of success, and one of the most significant measurements. IMO. Additionally, I think we can correlate W/L to the aggregate of the organization. For the players would not be there without the scouts, coaches, management, and owner!

Statistically, the Saints, on the whole, do not have a good record both in FA and the draft. I believe we both agree with this premise.

Insanity=continue doing the same thing over, over, and over again and expect a different outcome!

[Edited on 4/5/2004 by biloxi-indian]

Musings...........
 

B-I,

I didn\'t mean to suggest that W/L were not a way to measure performance - I think we agree here. I\'m, however, skeptical that it is even the best measure. I\'m willing to bet the measure of \"goodness\" should be selected based on the goal of the analysis. That is, if we want to know how the team is doing with respect to chances of success in winning the SB, then W/L might be very relevant; but if we want to determine if the draft was a good one or not, then W/L is totally irrelvant (since, as many have pointed out, those players haven\'t even played a down in the NFL).

I have to admit that I don\'t know what IMO stands for, so I\'m having some trouble understanding a few of your points.

I still dispute the insanity claim on the grounds that the organization is not doing the SAME thing over and over again.

Musings...........
 

Jkool,

IMO=in my opinion. Sorry for using code!

As for the draft and correlation to W/L...I use the phrase most commonly used in the media and around these parts...IMPACT player. As I have stated, we have yet to see what type of IMPACT players we drafted this year. However, I still maintain that the Saints organization did a less than admirable job in the draft. They did not fill the VOIDS. For this, they still employ the standard of INSANITY.

I believe we both agree FA is something to behold when it comes to the Saints!

One further example...recently Haz comes out and states his initial intentions for Henderson. Where are the comments for the rest of his \"class\". I only hope his comments are forthcoming and concise to the average reader...as his code is something I really do not understand!


[Edited on 4/5/2004 by biloxi-indian]

Musings...........
 

B-I,

Thanks for the code, now I too can employ these fun abbrevations.

I agree, when looking at the draft, we should look at filling of needs, quality of player, and impact (I like your idea there), at least. IMO people get too caught up in evaluating large events - \"the draft\" - rather than looking at SOMETIMES more helpful parts - \"picking Watson\" or something like that. When we say things like, \"our draft sucked\", we are leaving out interesting details that are worth discussing (as you and I seem to have discovered/demonstrated here in this post); don\'t you agree?

I also agree that listening to what Haz says on the face of it is usually useless. If we only had the secret decoder ring... He really is a bit on the frustrating side, isn\'t he?

Musings...........
 

Now, THAT was a post.

Thanks for the thoughts Gator. It certainly is my view that FA is where our boys have truly sucked (at least over the last few years) - and I actually think that is a fairly common view here. The draft IMO is overrated (that\'s for you JimBone). It CAN fill needs, but in general it is a craps shoot. I think that our LB position was addressed, even if it is not to everyone\'s liking - they did make moves to get players here. I am still a bit in shock about the decision to deal our 3rd round pick rather than pick up a CB there (with at least a few that will be nickle backs in the NFL - it is not like we\'re stoked at CB and don\'t need even role players).

I think that the focus of our sh-t slinging should be directed at our FA work, rather than at the Draft. In the end, we probably got a handful of good players; however, in agreement with just about everyone here, NOW is the time to make a move for a SB, NOT in a year or two.

Musings...........
 

I have to say the last few posts are some good MUSINGS.

<I think that the focus of our sh-t slinging should be directed at our FA work, rather than at the Draft.>

IMO...there is enough sh-t to go around!

BTW; to post and debate the information contained within seems better than challenging the poster...don\'t you all agree!

JKool, the \"large\" events like \"draft\" do seem to be bundled together. Collectively with FA, as gatorman mused, we begin to understand the flaws of the Saints organization. And, yes, if Haz has a plan, he sure ain\'t sharing it! I know some will muse, \"he cannot share this information for fear of the ENEMY finding out...like it is a big secret!LOLOLOLOLOL

Musings...........
 

The problem is, in part, vision... or lack thereof. If Haslett had said - here\'s my vision for this franchise 4 years ago when he got here, and worked consistently to get there, then that would be one thing. However, the tune that our front office sings is about as inconsistent as the team\'s play on the field.

We need to build on offense.
Now we need to get bigger up front on defense.
Oops, I mean we need to get faster on defense.
Our WRs are a major strength.
Our WRs are a disappointment.
CB is an area of concern - that\'s why we didn\'t address that need seriously for two years.
We\'re rebuilding the defense from the ground up.
Consistency is the key, don\'t look for big changes this year.

My point is, every year the \"plan\" changes, and I don\'t see any continuity or underlying theme that extends from year to year. First they want to attack, attack, attack. Then they want to load up to stop the run, then they want to add speed, then they don\'t want to change anything.

I feel the \"plan\" is always short-sighted. They seem not to be able to see the forrest for the trees... and often times they miss some trees. This team, from top to bottom, is lacking vision, leadership, and quality management. That\'s why we always seem undisciplined, inconsistent, and discombobulated. Of course, that\'s just one man\'s opinion.

Musings...........
 

<This team, from top to bottom, is lacking vision, leadership, and quality management. That\'s why we always seem undisciplined, inconsistent, and discombobulated.>

You will get no argument from me on that quote. In fact, very well said.

We will await the musings of others to the valid point of changes have occurred within the organization from Zook to Venturi...change in GM, change, change, and more change.

My question is when will will Benson make a change with Haz and then HIMSELF?

Musings...........
 

The FO always reminds me of a volunteer position I held for a long time. It was with one of our fine universities, but the group I worked as a part of wasn\'t clearly under one deparment, so every year we were run by a different group of \"managers\". Every year you would hear the following statement several times: \"this is a new and exciting time to be a member of our group.\" Now, I did this job for 5 years, for six different \"managers\" - what this phrase meant was this: \"I\'m your new manager and I\'m going to tell you what we\'re going to do, AND I DON\'T WANT ANY SH-T FROM THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE BEEN HERE LONG ENOUGH TO KNOW EVERY IDEA I HAVE HAS BEEN TRIED AND FAILED.\"

There are three possible lessons to be drawn from my experience:
1. Change is not always good - it leads to people who think they know what they\'re doing not listening to the people who do.
2. Not changing is not always good - imagine I got stuck with my first \"manager\" who was truly an idiot and probably would never have changed.
And/or
3. At least each new manager tried new things - if we\'d hit on something good, we might have kept it.

Here is an argument that I don\'t know what to think of yet, given my analogy: perhaps is excited about a \"new and exciting time\" in NO because every year he has a new plan (as WhoDat points out)? If that is so, perhaps he will hit on a good plan soon. Of course, you want a HC who has a good plan from the start (like Parcells perhaps), but if you don\'t have one of those, you don\'t want the guy who sticks to the bad plan (which it seems Haz has not).

Of course, here is another possible argument that could be made from the same facts: Haz likes to be an idea man, but doesn\'t listen to people with good experience. Thus, he fails to let anyone question the poor decisions and he\'s made and goes on making new ones.

If I though Haz were reinventing the wheel every year, then I guess I\'d be inclined to think the second was the more likely argument. However, Haz does persue roughly proven strategies (like build a faster defense) employed to great success by other teams. Thus, I\'m not sure which argument I think is more likely to be true at this moment.

Musings...........
 

We had a very good defense when Haslett came to NO. Zook was a big part of that, and when he left we got hurt - no question.

Since then, Haslett has tried three different \"plans\" - get bigger, get faster, do nothing and let them learn to play together. None of these in and of themselves is a bad plan. In fact, I\'d bet there have been many successful teams to have employed each over the years.

Here\'s the kicker. You employ ONE. You know when you make a change, nine times out of ten you aren\'t going to have immediate success. Like any startup business, you lose money in year one. However, if you stick to your plan (and it\'s a good one), over time your profits grow and your plan pays off. If you start a business as a high-end luxury retailer and after one year of losses drop everything and switch to being a deep-discount bargain store you will certainly fail.

The latter is what Haslett has done. Each year\'s \"plan\" is not bad standing alone. However, you cannot make change something every year and expect it to ever work well.