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Defensive linemen have noticeable flaws

By BOB MCGINN

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel

GREEN BAY, Wis. - The fact that Oklahoma's Tommie Harris and Ohio State's Will Smith are so routinely trashed by personnel people should tell you all you need to know about the defensive linemen available in this National Football League draft.

There's a hole in every one of them.

Take Harris, the top-rated defensive tackle. He had nine sacks - count `em, nine - and 49 solo tackles in three seasons (37 starts).

"There's people who think he's like Bryant Young, but he's not as productive as Bryant Young (18 sacks, 121 solos from 1991-`93 at Notre Dame)," an AFC personnel director said. "He's very quick and when they don't get a hand on him, he can disrupt, but he gets washed when they get a hand on him."

Or take Smith, the top-rated end. His numbers are fine but only two of four scouts said he was better than Jamal Reynolds, the 10th pick in the 2001 draft who has been a bust in Green Bay. The comparison is valid because they have almost the same speed and were almost exactly the same dimensions at the combine.

"I can't say he was better than Jamal Reynolds coming out," an NFC personnel director said. "One thing about Jamal, he played hard all the time. Smith really doesn't do that. Similar athletes. I thought Jamal was probably a better pure pass-rusher than Will Smith."

Harris and Smith should both be gone by the 15th pick but that might be more by default. Only once in the last 20 drafts has there not been a defensive lineman among the top 10 picks. In 16 of those 20 drafts, at least one defensive lineman was a top-five pick.

Three scouts used the adjective "awful" to describe the collection of ends.

"After the top two (ends), all you can try to get is good, solid, hard-working rotation guys," Buffalo Bills assistant general manager Tom Modrak said.

Fifteen scouts agreed to rank the defensive ends and 16 scouts ranked the defensive tackles on a 1-to-4 basis, with first place being worth four points, second place three points and so forth. Some voters had to be pestered to fill out a ballot at end because it's such a down year.

"I'm not excited about anybody after Will Smith," Indianapolis President Bill Polian said.

Thirteen players got votes, led by Smith with 55 points (10 firsts). Rounding out the top seven were Southern California's Kenechi Udeze with 48 (five firsts), Western Michigan's Jason Babin with 16, Ohio State's Darrion Scott with 11, Alabama's Antwan Odom with seven and two players, Louisiana's Marquise Hill and Texas Christian's Bo Schobel, with three.

Purdue's Shaun Phillips got two votes, followed by five others with one: UCLA's Dave Ball, Georgia's Robert Geathers, Central Missouri State's Roderick Green, Delaware's Shawn Johnson and Hawaii's Travis LaBoy.

"There's probably more depth at tackle than end," Tennessee Titans director of player personnel Rich Snead said. "But I think finding tackles is always easier than finding ends."

The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel poll of scouts saw Harris ranked as the No. 1 tackle with 57 points (nine firsts). The top five included Miami's Vince Wilfork with 48 (seven firsts), Texas' Marcus Tubbs with 20 1/2, Florida State's Darnell Dockett with 12 1/2 and Oregon State's Dwan Edwards with nine.

Rounding out the vote-getters were Washington's Terry "Tank" Johnson with five, Maryland's Randy Starks with three, Hawaii's Isaac Sopoaga and Oregon's Junior Siavii with two, and Oregon's Igor Olshansky with one.

Rendering the evaluation process even more difficult at tackle is the number of character risks and inconsistent competitors in the group.

In the last three drafts a total of 27 defensive linemen were selected in the first round. Look for about six Saturday.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twinci...8478459.htm?1c

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ANOTHER AGENDA POST, OH BOY, ITS BEEN LIKE 2 HOURS SINCE YOU TRIED THAT.

GETA LIFE DUDE!

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I like how the article initially trashes Smith, but then has a quote like this.

As far as Harris not being productive, I read this earlier today.
http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=2373568

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This comparison is not valid because you are only comparing his physical characteristics and speed. Or does footwork, burst, play recognition, and maneuvers not matter in \"Today\'s NFL\"?

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it doesn\'t fit the agenda of the poster.

2 of 4 scouts??? Wow! A massive pool of opinion there.

There were a bunch of scouts that thought McAllister was gonna be a bust too.

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I don\'t see this article as particularly insightful.

Smith is the same, physically speaking, as some other dude who has not succeeded. Ok, but the success of players is not determined by who they are like, rather it is determined by who they are. Should we predict that Smith will be the bust that this other dude is just because he is big and fast and has the same lateral movement? Of course not, we\'d need to hear more about how he will be used, what effect people like Grant and Howard might have on his development, some stuff about the other dude\'s reasons for not being a super star.

Also, the article says it is hard to come by good DEs and that Smith and Uzede were the only good ones in the draft - how is that bad? That sounds like value to me. 10 (of 15) scouts ranked Smith the best of this group. Just because the average player from the group is \"awful\" doesn\'t mean that any particular member of that group is awful.

Also, I thought the Patriots were drooling over Smith; they have a decent draft record - isn\'t that evidence that he doesn\'t suck?

Finally, this article isn\'t negative, it is poorly written. There is some evidence that Smith won\'t be good - of course, that is true of ALL the draft picks - but there is plenty of evidence he will be good (good college numbers, good physical specs, and a general view by professionals that he was the best DE available in the draft - including comments like, \"I\'m not excited about anybody after Will Smith\"). You certainly don\'t think all the scouts saying stuff like \"needs to get stronger at the point of attack\" - even if all of them said it - makes a player bad?

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I find it interesting that when a guy posts an article about a Saints player or coach that is less than positive everyone on this board attacks the poster and even the source. Yet when an article is posted that supports a player, coach, or decision it is upheld like the gospel in here... at least for a few months until it is exposed as unfounded and then the excuses start coming from everywhere.

That article isn\'t from LarryLawDog.com. It\'s from the major paper in a metropolitan area. Attack 08 if you must. Attack the author... but how you people can suggest others have an agenda when you behave in this fashion is utterly incomprehensible to me.

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Come on, WhoDat, I\'ve always stayed neutral during the moonshine/sunshine debates, but even you have to agree with my previous statement on this article. To make a comparison to another player based solely on speed and size is laughable.

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I\'m confused WhoDat. Why do you keep lumping everyone into two groups? I never attacked 08, nor did I intend to. Also, I offered arguments as to why I found the article uninsightful; I didn\'t simply say the guy who wrote it was a moron (nor do I have any evidence for that) - I do think that this was probably not his best work.

Perhaps, you weren\'t directing your comments to me?

Furthermore, you and I agreed at some point in the not too distant past that there is no post of any kind that does not contain an \"agenda\".

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BnB - I agree in principle that a comparison based solely on size and speed is not very valid. However, discounting the entire contents of the article on that one comparison is also pretty baseless. Anyway, I know you\'re fair and wasn\'t really addressing you.

JKool - Also not really talking to you. I don\'t know if I think all posts have an agenda. Different perspectives maybe... regardless of what some people might tell you, I do not post to this board with the intent of making people \"join my team\" and become the \"most negative persons\" in the world. I simply try to call it like I see it. The only people that I consistently try to question are BillyC (and his 20 or so aliases) and Saintfan... and that\'s mostly b/c it\'s fun.

Danno - I\'ve always thought you were one of the most fair, witty, and intelligent posters on this board. What\'s with the extreme determination you\'ve got going on to disagree with 08 and myself? I know you really want to be up on this team, that\'s fine, but man... you\'re starting to sound a little like BC last off-season. I\'m not trying to pick on you, I\'m just wondering where this came from. I can almost see you in my head walking around the room talking to yourself and shouting at the monitor. :) Seriously man, I\'m not trying to get you more worked up, I\'m just wondering where all this anger is coming from.

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Valid question, I\'ve noticed it too. Please don\'t tell me that they got to you. ;)

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WhoDat,

Thanks for the reply. It is sometimes hard to tell whether or not something is a response to a post you\'ve made or just a slight change of subject.

I guess I took \"agenda\" very broadly, such that it included \"perspective\". I\'m not sure that a perspective doesn\'t constitute an agenda; but I can see how we might take there to be a negative connotation to \"agenda\", whereas we would not with \"perspective\".

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Well, at least let\'s hope this article reminds us to have a little perspective.

Smith hasn\'t done jack until he\'s done it on the field in the NFL.

I hope this little realization puts the brakes on all the \"Deal Howard!\" poppycock I\'ve been reading for the last couple of weeks.

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People pushing agendas, ignoring or twisting facts, untruths and half-truths irritate me.
Especially when its a MODERATOR?
I\'ll bet out of his last 100 posts, 99 are negative hatchet jobs on players or coaches. Its transparent. Its like a weasly Democrat trashing the USA over and over because it fits their agenda.
I once vowed I\'d never read or respond to that vomit anymore, but I failed and got sucked back in. Its like arguing with a woman. You may be 100% right but you aren\'t gonna convince her of it.
Now I gotta wipe off the vomit and bring my blood pressure back down.

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OK Mr helper, Why title it \"Smith Drops\"?
Smith drops what?
Does he drop in the draft rankings? NO! That was 2 weeks ago.
Does his talent drop now that he\'s a Saint?
2 of 4 scouts?
Why not title it \"Saints nab one of two best DE\'s in draft\".

That would be like me titleing that article on the Saints wanting Deuce at 225 as
\"Deuce McAllister: Fat, lazy cancer!\"

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thats Y when I post an article, i actually use the title of the article im posting... and i try to post both sides of the road.. if ya get what im saying, and i try to keep my opinion to myself and if and when i do post my opinion about something, i dont get pissed off b/c someone is disagreein with what i saying

[Edited on 5/5/2004 by pakowitz]

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I don\'t see why this has become yet another one of these threads. 08 posted an interesting article, and I thought we were discussing it (aside from a few perhaps \'oer hasty and somewhat nasty remarks). However, this has just become another one of those \"make fun of everyone else\'s view\" (and, while you\'re at it, make fun of them too) threads.

Why can\'t we just talk about what the article SAYS. Please feel free to say what you think it implies, perhaps link it to other things, but for crying out loud stop talking about who on this board you find annoying/hateful/whatever - why does that matter? Wait, don\'t answer that question, it was rhetorical.

WhoDat presented what seemed to me like the right attitude in this comment:
\"JKool - Also not really talking to you. I don\'t know if I think all posts have an agenda. Different perspectives maybe... regardless of what some people might tell you, I do not post to this board with the intent of making people \"join my team\" and become the \"most negative persons\" in the world. I simply try to call it like I see it. The only people that I consistently try to question are BillyC (and his 20 or so aliases) and Saintfan... and that\'s mostly b/c it\'s fun.\" Not only that WhoDat, questioning peoples views is the point of discussion! And, I\'m sure you\'ll agree, it is not about making fun of them.

Well, some people are more malicious than others - when the picking on is good natured (which it has been at times), then it seems fine to me. However, in other cases, like this thread, it APPEARS TO ME to be mean spirited and serves no other purpose than discussion ending.

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Deal with it ....

The original title is Packer related ......Which has nothing to do with the Saint player content . Why title it Smith drops ?? If some poster was wondering why Smith may have dropped , here is a possible answer ....

Not while trying to sing in the sunshine glee club about teams that continually post 8-8 and 9-7 records . Philip Morris has a job for you .... ;)

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The sunshiners have a glee club?! Not fair! Of course, they don\'t have their own sports drink like WhoTang, do they? ;)

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Not Fair? Are you not satisfied with the \"Pity Patrol\"? Some people are just NEVER happy! LOL

:P

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Oh yes we do...
The Mexican beer \"Sol\" of course, which means sun.

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Rumor had it that thay have their own brand of KY , cause sometimes it all about the delivery and some of that is a little hard to take for those buying into it ........ ;)