Smith Drops

saintz08 · 05-04-2004, 10:22 AM

Defensive linemen have noticeable flaws

By BOB MCGINN

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel

GREEN BAY, Wis. - The fact that Oklahoma's Tommie Harris and Ohio State's Will Smith are so routinely trashed by personnel people should tell you all you need to know about the defensive linemen available in this National Football League draft.

There's a hole in every one of them.

Take Harris, the top-rated defensive tackle. He had nine sacks - count `em, nine - and 49 solo tackles in three seasons (37 starts).

"There's people who think he's like Bryant Young, but he's not as productive as Bryant Young (18 sacks, 121 solos from 1991-`93 at Notre Dame)," an AFC personnel director said. "He's very quick and when they don't get a hand on him, he can disrupt, but he gets washed when they get a hand on him."

Or take Smith, the top-rated end. His numbers are fine but only two of four scouts said he was better than Jamal Reynolds, the 10th pick in the 2001 draft who has been a bust in Green Bay. The comparison is valid because they have almost the same speed and were almost exactly the same dimensions at the combine.

"I can't say he was better than Jamal Reynolds coming out," an NFC personnel director said. "One thing about Jamal, he played hard all the time. Smith really doesn't do that. Similar athletes. I thought Jamal was probably a better pure pass-rusher than Will Smith."

Harris and Smith should both be gone by the 15th pick but that might be more by default. Only once in the last 20 drafts has there not been a defensive lineman among the top 10 picks. In 16 of those 20 drafts, at least one defensive lineman was a top-five pick.

Three scouts used the adjective "awful" to describe the collection of ends.

"After the top two (ends), all you can try to get is good, solid, hard-working rotation guys," Buffalo Bills assistant general manager Tom Modrak said.

Fifteen scouts agreed to rank the defensive ends and 16 scouts ranked the defensive tackles on a 1-to-4 basis, with first place being worth four points, second place three points and so forth. Some voters had to be pestered to fill out a ballot at end because it's such a down year.

"I'm not excited about anybody after Will Smith," Indianapolis President Bill Polian said.

Thirteen players got votes, led by Smith with 55 points (10 firsts). Rounding out the top seven were Southern California's Kenechi Udeze with 48 (five firsts), Western Michigan's Jason Babin with 16, Ohio State's Darrion Scott with 11, Alabama's Antwan Odom with seven and two players, Louisiana's Marquise Hill and Texas Christian's Bo Schobel, with three.

Purdue's Shaun Phillips got two votes, followed by five others with one: UCLA's Dave Ball, Georgia's Robert Geathers, Central Missouri State's Roderick Green, Delaware's Shawn Johnson and Hawaii's Travis LaBoy.

"There's probably more depth at tackle than end," Tennessee Titans director of player personnel Rich Snead said. "But I think finding tackles is always easier than finding ends."

The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel poll of scouts saw Harris ranked as the No. 1 tackle with 57 points (nine firsts). The top five included Miami's Vince Wilfork with 48 (seven firsts), Texas' Marcus Tubbs with 20 1/2, Florida State's Darnell Dockett with 12 1/2 and Oregon State's Dwan Edwards with nine.

Rounding out the vote-getters were Washington's Terry "Tank" Johnson with five, Maryland's Randy Starks with three, Hawaii's Isaac Sopoaga and Oregon's Junior Siavii with two, and Oregon's Igor Olshansky with one.

Rendering the evaluation process even more difficult at tackle is the number of character risks and inconsistent competitors in the group.

In the last three drafts a total of 27 defensive linemen were selected in the first round. Look for about six Saturday.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twinci...8478459.htm?1c

Danno · 05-04-2004, 10:39 AM

ANOTHER AGENDA POST, OH BOY, ITS BEEN LIKE 2 HOURS SINCE YOU TRIED THAT.

GETA LIFE DUDE!

saintsfan200 · 05-04-2004, 12:44 PM

I like how the article initially trashes Smith, but then has a quote like this.

\"I\'m not excited about anybody after Will Smith,\" Indianapolis President Bill Polian said.

As far as Harris not being productive, I read this earlier today.
http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=2373568

BlackandBlue · 05-04-2004, 01:42 PM

Or take Smith, the top-rated end. His numbers are fine but only two of four scouts said he was better than Jamal Reynolds, the 10th pick in the 2001 draft who has been a bust in Green Bay. The comparison is valid because they have almost the same speed and were almost exactly the same dimensions at the combine.

This comparison is not valid because you are only comparing his physical characteristics and speed. Or does footwork, burst, play recognition, and maneuvers not matter in \"Today\'s NFL\"?

Danno · 05-04-2004, 02:19 PM

Or take Smith, the top-rated end. His numbers are fine but only two of four scouts said he was better than Jamal Reynolds, the 10th pick in the 2001 draft who has been a bust in Green Bay. The comparison is valid because they have almost the same speed and were almost exactly the same dimensions at the combine.

This comparison is not valid because you are only comparing his physical characteristics and speed. Or does footwork, burst, play recognition, and maneuvers not matter in \"Today\'s NFL\"?

it doesn\'t fit the agenda of the poster.

2 of 4 scouts??? Wow! A massive pool of opinion there.

There were a bunch of scouts that thought McAllister was gonna be a bust too.

JKool · 05-04-2004, 04:05 PM

I don\'t see this article as particularly insightful.

Smith is the same, physically speaking, as some other dude who has not succeeded. Ok, but the success of players is not determined by who they are like, rather it is determined by who they are. Should we predict that Smith will be the bust that this other dude is just because he is big and fast and has the same lateral movement? Of course not, we\'d need to hear more about how he will be used, what effect people like Grant and Howard might have on his development, some stuff about the other dude\'s reasons for not being a super star.

Also, the article says it is hard to come by good DEs and that Smith and Uzede were the only good ones in the draft - how is that bad? That sounds like value to me. 10 (of 15) scouts ranked Smith the best of this group. Just because the average player from the group is \"awful\" doesn\'t mean that any particular member of that group is awful.

Also, I thought the Patriots were drooling over Smith; they have a decent draft record - isn\'t that evidence that he doesn\'t suck?

Finally, this article isn\'t negative, it is poorly written. There is some evidence that Smith won\'t be good - of course, that is true of ALL the draft picks - but there is plenty of evidence he will be good (good college numbers, good physical specs, and a general view by professionals that he was the best DE available in the draft - including comments like, \"I\'m not excited about anybody after Will Smith\"). You certainly don\'t think all the scouts saying stuff like \"needs to get stronger at the point of attack\" - even if all of them said it - makes a player bad?

WhoDat · 05-04-2004, 06:04 PM

I find it interesting that when a guy posts an article about a Saints player or coach that is less than positive everyone on this board attacks the poster and even the source. Yet when an article is posted that supports a player, coach, or decision it is upheld like the gospel in here... at least for a few months until it is exposed as unfounded and then the excuses start coming from everywhere.

That article isn\'t from LarryLawDog.com. It\'s from the major paper in a metropolitan area. Attack 08 if you must. Attack the author... but how you people can suggest others have an agenda when you behave in this fashion is utterly incomprehensible to me.

BlackandBlue · 05-04-2004, 06:17 PM

Come on, WhoDat, I\'ve always stayed neutral during the moonshine/sunshine debates, but even you have to agree with my previous statement on this article. To make a comparison to another player based solely on speed and size is laughable.

JKool · 05-04-2004, 06:18 PM

I\'m confused WhoDat. Why do you keep lumping everyone into two groups? I never attacked 08, nor did I intend to. Also, I offered arguments as to why I found the article uninsightful; I didn\'t simply say the guy who wrote it was a moron (nor do I have any evidence for that) - I do think that this was probably not his best work.

Perhaps, you weren\'t directing your comments to me?

Furthermore, you and I agreed at some point in the not too distant past that there is no post of any kind that does not contain an \"agenda\".

WhoDat · 05-04-2004, 06:36 PM

BnB - I agree in principle that a comparison based solely on size and speed is not very valid. However, discounting the entire contents of the article on that one comparison is also pretty baseless. Anyway, I know you\'re fair and wasn\'t really addressing you.

JKool - Also not really talking to you. I don\'t know if I think all posts have an agenda. Different perspectives maybe... regardless of what some people might tell you, I do not post to this board with the intent of making people \"join my team\" and become the \"most negative persons\" in the world. I simply try to call it like I see it. The only people that I consistently try to question are BillyC (and his 20 or so aliases) and Saintfan... and that\'s mostly b/c it\'s fun.

Danno - I\'ve always thought you were one of the most fair, witty, and intelligent posters on this board. What\'s with the extreme determination you\'ve got going on to disagree with 08 and myself? I know you really want to be up on this team, that\'s fine, but man... you\'re starting to sound a little like BC last off-season. I\'m not trying to pick on you, I\'m just wondering where this came from. I can almost see you in my head walking around the room talking to yourself and shouting at the monitor.

Seriously man, I\'m not trying to get you more worked up, I\'m just wondering where all this anger is coming from.

05-04-2004, 10:22 AM	#1
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Smith Drops Defensive linemen have noticeable flaws By BOB MCGINN Milwaukee Journal Sentinel GREEN BAY, Wis. - The fact that Oklahoma's Tommie Harris and Ohio State's Will Smith are so routinely trashed by personnel people should tell you all you need to know about the defensive linemen available in this National Football League draft. There's a hole in every one of them. Take Harris, the top-rated defensive tackle. He had nine sacks - count `em, nine - and 49 solo tackles in three seasons (37 starts). "There's people who think he's like Bryant Young, but he's not as productive as Bryant Young (18 sacks, 121 solos from 1991-`93 at Notre Dame)," an AFC personnel director said. "He's very quick and when they don't get a hand on him, he can disrupt, but he gets washed when they get a hand on him." Or take Smith, the top-rated end. His numbers are fine but only two of four scouts said he was better than Jamal Reynolds, the 10th pick in the 2001 draft who has been a bust in Green Bay. The comparison is valid because they have almost the same speed and were almost exactly the same dimensions at the combine. "I can't say he was better than Jamal Reynolds coming out," an NFC personnel director said. "One thing about Jamal, he played hard all the time. Smith really doesn't do that. Similar athletes. I thought Jamal was probably a better pure pass-rusher than Will Smith." Harris and Smith should both be gone by the 15th pick but that might be more by default. Only once in the last 20 drafts has there not been a defensive lineman among the top 10 picks. In 16 of those 20 drafts, at least one defensive lineman was a top-five pick. Three scouts used the adjective "awful" to describe the collection of ends. "After the top two (ends), all you can try to get is good, solid, hard-working rotation guys," Buffalo Bills assistant general manager Tom Modrak said. Fifteen scouts agreed to rank the defensive ends and 16 scouts ranked the defensive tackles on a 1-to-4 basis, with first place being worth four points, second place three points and so forth. Some voters had to be pestered to fill out a ballot at end because it's such a down year. "I'm not excited about anybody after Will Smith," Indianapolis President Bill Polian said. Thirteen players got votes, led by Smith with 55 points (10 firsts). Rounding out the top seven were Southern California's Kenechi Udeze with 48 (five firsts), Western Michigan's Jason Babin with 16, Ohio State's Darrion Scott with 11, Alabama's Antwan Odom with seven and two players, Louisiana's Marquise Hill and Texas Christian's Bo Schobel, with three. Purdue's Shaun Phillips got two votes, followed by five others with one: UCLA's Dave Ball, Georgia's Robert Geathers, Central Missouri State's Roderick Green, Delaware's Shawn Johnson and Hawaii's Travis LaBoy. "There's probably more depth at tackle than end," Tennessee Titans director of player personnel Rich Snead said. "But I think finding tackles is always easier than finding ends." The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel poll of scouts saw Harris ranked as the No. 1 tackle with 57 points (nine firsts). The top five included Miami's Vince Wilfork with 48 (seven firsts), Texas' Marcus Tubbs with 20 1/2, Florida State's Darnell Dockett with 12 1/2 and Oregon State's Dwan Edwards with nine. Rounding out the vote-getters were Washington's Terry "Tank" Johnson with five, Maryland's Randy Starks with three, Hawaii's Isaac Sopoaga and Oregon's Junior Siavii with two, and Oregon's Igor Olshansky with one. Rendering the evaluation process even more difficult at tackle is the number of character risks and inconsistent competitors in the group. In the last three drafts a total of 27 defensive linemen were selected in the first round. Look for about six Saturday. http://www.twincities.com/mld/twinci...8478459.htm?1c
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

05-04-2004, 10:39 AM	#2
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,723	Smith Drops ANOTHER AGENDA POST, OH BOY, ITS BEEN LIKE 2 HOURS SINCE YOU TRIED THAT. GETA LIFE DUDE!

05-04-2004, 12:44 PM	#3
saintsfan200 Registered Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 67	Smith Drops I like how the article initially trashes Smith, but then has a quote like this. \"I\'m not excited about anybody after Will Smith,\" Indianapolis President Bill Polian said. As far as Harris not being productive, I read this earlier today. http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=2373568
saintsfan200 Registered Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 67

05-04-2004, 01:42 PM	#4
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Smith Drops Or take Smith, the top-rated end. His numbers are fine but only two of four scouts said he was better than Jamal Reynolds, the 10th pick in the 2001 draft who has been a bust in Green Bay. The comparison is valid because they have almost the same speed and were almost exactly the same dimensions at the combine. This comparison is not valid because you are only comparing his physical characteristics and speed. Or does footwork, burst, play recognition, and maneuvers not matter in \"Today\'s NFL\"?

05-04-2004, 02:19 PM	#5
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,723	Smith Drops Or take Smith, the top-rated end. His numbers are fine but only two of four scouts said he was better than Jamal Reynolds, the 10th pick in the 2001 draft who has been a bust in Green Bay. The comparison is valid because they have almost the same speed and were almost exactly the same dimensions at the combine. This comparison is not valid because you are only comparing his physical characteristics and speed. Or does footwork, burst, play recognition, and maneuvers not matter in \"Today\'s NFL\"? it doesn\'t fit the agenda of the poster. 2 of 4 scouts??? Wow! A massive pool of opinion there. There were a bunch of scouts that thought McAllister was gonna be a bust too.

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05-04-2004, 04:05 PM	#6
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Smith Drops I don\'t see this article as particularly insightful. Smith is the same, physically speaking, as some other dude who has not succeeded. Ok, but the success of players is not determined by who they are like, rather it is determined by who they are. Should we predict that Smith will be the bust that this other dude is just because he is big and fast and has the same lateral movement? Of course not, we\'d need to hear more about how he will be used, what effect people like Grant and Howard might have on his development, some stuff about the other dude\'s reasons for not being a super star. Also, the article says it is hard to come by good DEs and that Smith and Uzede were the only good ones in the draft - how is that bad? That sounds like value to me. 10 (of 15) scouts ranked Smith the best of this group. Just because the average player from the group is \"awful\" doesn\'t mean that any particular member of that group is awful. Also, I thought the Patriots were drooling over Smith; they have a decent draft record - isn\'t that evidence that he doesn\'t suck? Finally, this article isn\'t negative, it is poorly written. There is some evidence that Smith won\'t be good - of course, that is true of ALL the draft picks - but there is plenty of evidence he will be good (good college numbers, good physical specs, and a general view by professionals that he was the best DE available in the draft - including comments like, \"I\'m not excited about anybody after Will Smith\"). You certainly don\'t think all the scouts saying stuff like \"needs to get stronger at the point of attack\" - even if all of them said it - makes a player bad?
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

05-04-2004, 06:04 PM	#7
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Smith Drops I find it interesting that when a guy posts an article about a Saints player or coach that is less than positive everyone on this board attacks the poster and even the source. Yet when an article is posted that supports a player, coach, or decision it is upheld like the gospel in here... at least for a few months until it is exposed as unfounded and then the excuses start coming from everywhere. That article isn\'t from LarryLawDog.com. It\'s from the major paper in a metropolitan area. Attack 08 if you must. Attack the author... but how you people can suggest others have an agenda when you behave in this fashion is utterly incomprehensible to me.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

05-04-2004, 06:17 PM	#8
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Smith Drops Come on, WhoDat, I\'ve always stayed neutral during the moonshine/sunshine debates, but even you have to agree with my previous statement on this article. To make a comparison to another player based solely on speed and size is laughable.

05-04-2004, 06:18 PM	#9
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Smith Drops I\'m confused WhoDat. Why do you keep lumping everyone into two groups? I never attacked 08, nor did I intend to. Also, I offered arguments as to why I found the article uninsightful; I didn\'t simply say the guy who wrote it was a moron (nor do I have any evidence for that) - I do think that this was probably not his best work. Perhaps, you weren\'t directing your comments to me? Furthermore, you and I agreed at some point in the not too distant past that there is no post of any kind that does not contain an \"agenda\".
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

05-04-2004, 06:36 PM	#10
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Smith Drops BnB - I agree in principle that a comparison based solely on size and speed is not very valid. However, discounting the entire contents of the article on that one comparison is also pretty baseless. Anyway, I know you\'re fair and wasn\'t really addressing you. JKool - Also not really talking to you. I don\'t know if I think all posts have an agenda. Different perspectives maybe... regardless of what some people might tell you, I do not post to this board with the intent of making people \"join my team\" and become the \"most negative persons\" in the world. I simply try to call it like I see it. The only people that I consistently try to question are BillyC (and his 20 or so aliases) and Saintfan... and that\'s mostly b/c it\'s fun. Danno - I\'ve always thought you were one of the most fair, witty, and intelligent posters on this board. What\'s with the extreme determination you\'ve got going on to disagree with 08 and myself? I know you really want to be up on this team, that\'s fine, but man... you\'re starting to sound a little like BC last off-season. I\'m not trying to pick on you, I\'m just wondering where this came from. I can almost see you in my head walking around the room talking to yourself and shouting at the monitor. Seriously man, I\'m not trying to get you more worked up, I\'m just wondering where all this anger is coming from.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"