GumboBC

Now back to WhoDat --

I won\'t go back to all the things you\'ve said about Haslett in the past. That\'s really not important to me. I\'m much more interested in the present.

Ummmm..... Let me say that I FULLY understand how you feel about Haslett and WHY you feel the way you do. I can\'t say I blame you. We have all gone through a lot of dissappointment since Haslett has been here. With the 2 late season collapses and the terrible start we had last year. It\'s been tough, no doubt about it.

Then there are other things such as his failure to properly address the defense and probably getting rid of some players that could have helped us.

Myself, I really like hearing the other side, that being the less optimistic side, because if everyone thought like I did, there wouldn\'t be anything I might learn on here. And, that\'s the main reason I\'m here.

I think the most fundamental difference we have is you look at trends through the Haslett administration and you basically don\'t think he can get the job done. I\'d have to say that there is a very good chance that you\'re right. I\'d have to even say if I were betting money that\'s the direction I would lean.

However, I like a lot of the things Haslett has done. The only reason that we have such high expectations right now is because of what Haslett has done. I also like his coaching style. I believe that he\'s made mistakes. I also believe that we\'re very close to having that special team. I think if our defense steps up that we have just as good a chance as anyone in the league. Of course, give the parity in the NFL, it\'s possible we could be 8-8 again.

saintfan

Dan Patrick had Al Michaels on his Radio Show today. I caught some of it at lunch. He said teams are so close these days that it\'s hard to pick a favorite because often times games are decided on a funny bounce or a freak play or officiating...and that injuries played such a big role. He still picked the Patriots to win it again this year.

Funny that I\'ve tried to say the same thing...strange bounces just didn\'t go the Saints way...freak plays and a missed PAT...some questionable calls and injuries for sure. Whodat makes fun of me because I see luck (good and bad) as a factor. Well, Whodat -- Meet Al Michaels. I guess I just wonder why those things should fall under Haz\'s control as some seem to want to suggest. At least I know Mr. Michaels watches the WHOLE game! :P

C'mon Man...

GumboBC

saintfan is correct. It\'s gotten to the point where it\'s hard to pick a favorite. I said last year I didn\'t think the Bucs were the team to beat. I remember a lot of folks here who said the Bucs were the team to beat and I got hammered for making that statement. I just didn\'t think the Bucs were that good. Not good enough for me to think they were anything special. As far as I was concerned, they were just another team.

How many or you predicted the Panthers season last year? Some predicted they would be improved, but it didn\'t take a rocket scienitist to make that prediction.

But, here\'s the thing. We\'re not supposed to try to predict bad officiating calls or funny bounces. That\'s like trying to predict the next weeks lotto numbers. What we do is depend on the coaches to try to bring in the right players for our team and correct the short-comings from the previous year.

Based on how we played the previous year and what was done in the off-season, we give our opinion on how we think the team will do this year. It\'s far from an exact science. But, that\'s what we as fans do.

I think anyone that thinks we\'re going to be an elite team is misguided. Although, it is possible, given the state of the NFL, with teams going from worst to first.

I also think anyone that thinks there\'s very little chance that we will be successful this year is very misguided. For the same reason as the folks that think we will be an elite team.

saintfan

Yeah...whatever happened to that Bucnup fella anyway? I miss him. LOL

GumboBC

Well, let\'s just say his position has been considerably weakened. I don\'t think flashing that super bowl ring will have the same effect this year. -LOL

I still talk to him ever now and again. http://www.bucnup.com/

He\'s optimistic about the Bucs but has some concerns. About like we all do with the Saints.

JKool

Two things, since I\'m feeling ornery:

(1) Elite teams aren\'t born by luck. There are still elite teams in the NFL, these are the teams that have good depth, good starters, good coaching, etc. These teams will lose a game or two due to \"luck\" perhaps, but their chance of making the post season is not determined by that. That is to say, I agree, the Saints will not be an Elite team this year. But, I disagree that it could by \"luck\" turn out that they were. Maybe next year, once we\'ve filled a few more positions, if the guys we think develop will, and so on, they will be an Elite team. When that happens, I will begin to believe that \"luck\" is the biggest factor in their losses (and not just sometimes a factor). Parity doesn\'t make the coin toss at the start of the game important - teams just aren\'t that close in every dimension. Sure the level of available proven talent gets distributed pretty evenly, but it is what teams do with this and the unproven talent that separates the Elite from the Good, Mediocre and Poor.

(2) Saintfan, what is this WHOLE game you mention every year at this time? I\'m just trying to understand what conceptual work it does. Every time you say it, I think \"does he think that people only watch the first quarter?\" I often agree with you and Billy when you point out that certain trends are not really trends or that there is more than one thing that contributes to a win or a loss, but more often than not, we ALL think that. Aren\'t most of the disagreements about which factor is the greatest contributor to a particular phenomena? If so, what role does this WHOLE game thing play? Just wondering, really.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

GumboBC

JKool -- I always enjoy reading your posts. Some of us have a habit of debating a particular subject and then straying to a totally different subject. I think you hit on a key point as to where some of us differ in opinion. (and it is opinion since none of us can actually prove it.)

I think WhoDat and some others think myself and saintfan are giving too much crediance to luck being the primary reason for our lack of success. I\'m not, and I don\'t think saintfan is saying that luck is the MAIN reason. It\'s just one part of the equasion. I also consider injuries as one of the reasons for the lack of success. I also think the firing of Meuller might have set us back and I can\'t fault Haslett for the firing of Meuller.

I look at all four years of the Haslett administration and try to figure out where we come from and where we are at now. I also try and determine where we should be at based on the 4 years since Hasletts arrival.

I think anyone will tell you that a coach should have his team in the playoffs by the 4th year. Obviously, we didn\'t make it last year or the 2 years before that. However, I don\'t think it necessarily proves Haslett is a failure or he will be a failure in the future.

It\'s a FACT that Haslett has made some mistakes. It\'s also a fact that some of the misgivings haven\'t been his fault.

The only rightful conclusion in my mind is Haslett deserves the benefit of doubt for ONE more year.

Not to sound like WhoDat here, but I don\'t care if the roof of the superdome collapses this year. It\'s do or die for Haslett with me.

[Edited on 11/5/2004 by GumboBC]

JKool

Thanks for the post Billy.

I agree that this should be the make it or break it year for Haz; and, yes, I know many of you think it was last year.

It is the case that I tend to fall in the \"optimist\" camp, but the \"pessimist camp\" convinced me earlier in this calendar year that things with Haz aren\'t all that rosey. That said, many of the arguments I find uncompelling; thus, I guess one might say it is skepticism with respect to the \"Haz sucks\" arguments and blatant hopefulism that makes me think he should get one more shot (of course, the latter is irrational, but we\'re only human, right?).

So, I agree with you Billy, if we don\'t see something this year (maybe if the roof of the SuperDome did come down, I\'d change my tune though), Haz should get the axe. He should NOT get a chance to build yet another team - this is the team... it just needs a corner and some motivation!

PS - I didn\'t think you guys really thought that luck was the MAIN factor, but it is difficult to say from a few posts how important people think that factor is.

PPS - I do think we should be able to get an idea how long a coach should get to turn a team into a contender. We could look to a few of the great coaches who had to come into a mess and clean it up. Sure some of them did it quickly, but I\'m willing to bet some of them (like Bellichick) either got fired or took a good deal of time. I\'m inclined to go with Billy\'s suggested 4 years as about as long as our patience should hold up, but I bet the numbers would be interesting.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

WhoDat

Didn\'t you say that last year?

That\'s at least two people who think the man should already have been fired and two that think it\'s make or break time for Jimmy. I\'m sure I\'ll be laughing come January whatever the outcome.

What will be really interesting is if the Saints do make the playoffs this season. Will those who supported Haz feel justified and how long does that buy him? If they make it this year and go 8-8 in 05, does 06 become a do or die year again? Or does making the playoffs buy him four more years again?

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

JKool

If Jim goes 8-8 this year (and that is insufficient for the playoffs), he\'s done in my book.