Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Subguy,

I was awaiting a response, but I\'m not sure how to take it now that I\'ve got it.

There are many \"that\"s that I like, to which are you pointing?

Indeed, where else but B&G? Many fun things do go on here. I gotta say, I\'m in favor of it.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Kind of off the subject. But still in the ballpark


The QB position generally gets too much credit and too much blame.(We\'ve all heard that right?) But, it is true. I understand why. It\'s because they touch the \"rock\" every snap.

But, the truth is, they get too much blame and credit. A QB can have a game where he throws the ball 17 times for 125yds/no Td\'s/no ints. and hands the ball off 25 times to a runningback and the running back only goes for 55 yds. You know who\'s gonna get the blame for the loss? The QB of course. But, keep in mind the running back ran the ball 8 more times than the QB passed it. The offensive line will be criticised for not opening holes for the runningback. But the QB, well, he\'s expected to make plays. If he gets sacked, he simply needs to get rid of the ball quicker. Running back looses yardage -- A lineman must have missed his block.

On the other hand - A QB has a great game and he gets all the credit. Football is the ulimate team game!!

Did that make an sense? Oh, well.... I hope it did..

P.S. - There was actually a lot of intelligent debate on this thread. I like THAT.......LOL

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

I wish nothing but the best for the Saints with or without AB at the helm. Yes alot of responsibility does fall on the QB. Shouldn\'t it? He and the center are only two offensive players to touch the ball each offensive play. And he sets the play in motion. The whole series of my posts were dedicated to the fact that leadership is underestimated. I think the perception is that the QB is the General. The team has had no one step up actively to be giver of the atta-boy or the ass kick. Deuce silently through hard work has come closest. The team really needs AB to do that aspect of the job. It is just one of the QB\'s many hats. He is the focal point of the huddle, ass kick or atta-boy time. Once again I site Marino.......the definitive manager(CEO) on the field. If the QB is not going to offer praise or criticizm on the field who is the next logical player to do that or do you think there is no need for that individual and it is the coaches job only?

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

You\'re talking about the difference between management, knowledge, and leadership ability. Leadership is not learned. You cannot learn how to be visionary. You cannot learn how to be a person that others inately trust. Sorry, that is NOT an acquired skill.

Knowledge in a certain area is a requisite for someone to trust in you and follow you. You\'re right, an army platoon would not follow John Elway into battle. HOWEVER, send John Elway and Aaron Brooks to boot camp and I guarantee more soldiers will be willing to follow Elway than Brooks when they get out. Why? B/c Elway has natural leadership ability.

There are three things that you need to be a good leader. Two of those things CAN be learned: knowledge of the subject matter and management ability. The third is inherent in one\'s personality - the fiery Favre, the trustworthy Montana, even the loveable underdog Flutie. These guys have something that is not learned.

Aaron Brooks does not have that thing. He never will. There is no use in arguing this any further, it will never change. Billy, if you cannot see that AB does not have that spark, that X-factor, then I have a hard time believing you truly understand what it means to be a good leader. There IS a difference b/w being a leader - a visionary, a motivator - and being a good manager. AB can be a good manager - and even if he is never a good leader that DOES NOT mean that he will be a bad QB. He will never be great, in my mind, but he can be very successful. He can go to the Pro Bowl, he can take the team to the Super Bowl - but I\'m doubtful you\'ll see Hall of Fame - b/c the great ones have something that AB doesn\'t. Sorry man, that\'s the sad truth.

Now, I will repeat it again. I prefer the less talented but smart, efficient leader over the gifted athlete at QB, but that\'s only personal opinion. There is no reason to think that the Saints cannot win it all with Brooks. Dumber QBs have won it all. Less talented QBs have won it all. Poor leaders have won it all. All that is important to me in \'04 and beyond is that AB helps more than he hurts, and starts earning his top 5 salary. If he has a year this season like he did last, and corrects the fumbling problem, I will be happy with his play all around.

[Edited on 18/5/2004 by WhoDat]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

A good point Subguy.

Perhaps, here is another characteristic of of a great leader:
(4) Workman like attitude - this is the guy who means buisness, does his job, and get things done day in and day out (e.g. Duece).

Of course, your point was this: if not the QB, then who should be the leader? Clearly, RB is the next best option, since he is in a position to pull off (1), (2), and (4) of now modified list of leadership characteristics. Since Duece appears to be lacking in (3), a characteristic that seems pretty important, who could it be? Do any other players on our offense have all four characteristics we\'ve noted? Horn? No. He is (1) maybe. (2)? Yes. (3)? Hmmm... I doubt it. (4)? No - he\'s just too much flash and dash. What about one of our OLs? I can\'t think of one that exhibits enough of (1)-(4), but maybe someone else can?

Perhaps this is the reason so many people think QB is the most important for exhibiting leadership: after QB, RB is pretty well the only other player most likely to exhibit traits (1)-(4)? This does however suppose that all four must be embodied in one player, that the coaches cannot supplement a player who has most of these to a good/fair degree, and so on. What do you think?

Billy, I agree that QBs tend to take more heat and more praise than they should. They are treated like pitchers in baseball - they are the ones who get the W/L! Please! How many games are won or lost by a single guy swinging a bat? While it is true that even the greatest RB (with perhaps the exception of Barry Sanders) can\'t get much done without a solid OL, we expect the QB to gun-sling his way past any threat, with no friends in sight, to get us a victory.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

WhoDat,

I\'m not sure why you think we should just take your word that leadership is not learned. I like your distinction between management and leadership, and I agree that leadership has more to do with personality than it does with things that we standardly think of as learned. However, it is not clear to me that some major part of your personality isn\'t learned.

There are a variety of studies in psychology that show that certain kinds of behavior (body language, certain kinds of phrsases, facial expressions, and even things as simple as remembering peoples\' names) can put people at ease. This seems to indicate if you put some conscious effort into speaking in certain ways, aquiring certain mannerisms, and having a focus on others, you could become a much better leader.

Do you believe: (1) it is impossible for people who study people to discover what this X-factor is, OR (2) even if we uncovered what the X-factor is (and I have to say that it seems to me that it is more than one factor), it would be so inextricably linked to personality that if you didn\'t have it, no amount of training would get it for you? It seems to me you must believe one of those. While the latter seems much more plausible to me, I don\'t think either are true - it seems to me that the best actors of our time can pretend to have traits they don\'t (rather convincingly I might add) from down\'s syndrome to courage on the battle field. If these people can convince me that they are people they are not, then how come someone couldn\'t convince you that you are a leader when you are not.

Furthermore, it is my view that people can become leaders when they were not before simply by \"growing up\". Being immature is a huge impediment to leading that I don\'t see why this alone couldn\'t make a huge difference.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Everything is learned WhoDat. When a human being is born, he really doesn\'t have a personaltiy to speak of. That personality is DEVELOPED!! Identical twins, with the same genetical make-up, are NOT both equal in the leadership department!! WHY?? Because EVERYTHING is learned!! Or a better word would be DEVELOPED!!

What you are suggested is that leadership is a \"birth right.\" Well, it\'s not. EVERYONE has the ABILITY to lead. To be a leader you only need ONE person to follow you. There are some that are BETTER leaders. Adolf Hitler was a masterful leader. He got MILLIONS to follow him. For the wrong reasons of course, but he was a masterful leader.

None-the-less, leadership is developed. It\'s just like being comical. Some are born with a much more comical sense, but you can still learn to be comical. You might not be the next Chris Rock or Robin Williams, but you can learn. You can learn by watching and observing others.

Also, different situations call for different types of leaders. Aaron Brooks is NOT asking his guys to go to war with machine guns in hand. All he\'s to do is convince them he can get the job done on the football field!!








[Edited on 18/5/2004 by GumboBC]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

http://www.neworleanssaints.com/play...cfm?playerid=9

Everyone here should read the above a couple of times and let some of the facts sink in. Notice things such as ranks in top 5 of all Saints passing catorgories, set single season record for TD passes thrown by a Saint breaking the record which he already shared. LEADER who directed comeback win at Chicago after trailing 20-0.

Other facts of interest are:

Only QB in franchise history to LEAD Saints to a playoff victory.

Lead NFL in TD/INT ratio last year 3/1 with 24 TDs and only 8 INTs (2 of the INTS. were the fault of Donte\' Stallworth juggling the ball in the air right into a defenders hands)

Did not throw a single interception in the 4th quarter last season

When team is trailing by 9-16 points he has a QB rating of 105.6 during that time

When he has 31 attempts or more his QB rating is 108.7

QB rating in the final two minutes of each half is 86.1

In the red zone his QB rating is 101.1

On third down his QB rating is 93.7

When being blitzed his QB rating is 100.4 with over a 1,000 yards and 10 TDs

The receivers dropped 26 passes last year

2003 had 3500+ yards, 24 TDs, only 8 INTS (reads defenses pretty well)

Lack of defensive support allowing 20 points per game.

Defense ranked 19th in 2001, 28th in 2002, and 18th in 2003

Does AB have room for improvement? YES! He must learn to protect the ball better when being hit. Also the phantom fumbles where the ball slips out of his hand must stop. If he could start off as hot as he gets later that would be great. Not smiling during adversity would be easier to take for most fans. Running early when the opportunity presents itself by stepping up in the pocket instead of backpeddling would keep linebackers from dropping into deep zone coverage which would create more space for routes to be run providing bigger passing lanes.. Would like to see him do a better job of putting ball where receivers don\'t have to break stride or slow down. Shouldering fault and blame for team failure when addressing the media whether warranted or not would also go a long way towards being viewed as the team leader.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

WOW!! I don\'t know how anyone can argue with that. But, I\'m sure they will.

Great post, SaintNik! Great, great, great, great, great post........


[Edited on 18/5/2004 by GumboBC]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Nice post SaintNik. That was some fuel for the fire, no doubt.

I\'ll be the first to argue with you though (provided no one types faster than I do). I thought the question was about leadership not physical skill. Pretty well everyone, except maybe BMG seems to agree that AB has all the physical tools. I think that being athletic is only ONE of the components of being a great leader. It is no secret that as of now, I\'m in the pro-AB camp, but I think the counter to your claim GIVEN THE CURRENT DISCUSSION is that it is a Non Sequitur.

It seems that Billy and I agree then that leadership is learned - though I like his word, developed, better. However, the word developed implies that there was something there to develop in the first place. Isn\'t it possible, as WhoDat suggests, that on Billy\'s view of development, there is nothing there to develop in AB\'s case - no X-factor?

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

JKool -- I think EVERYONE has the ABILITY to lead. I use the example of someone being born funny or comical, if you will. We\'ve all seen folks that aren\'t funny. But, do they have the ABILITY to make people laugh?? Sure they have the ABILITY. They just need to develop it. They might not become the best comics in the world, but they have the ABILITY to develop into very funny people. They can learn from other people or what have you.

Samething as leadership. The can DEVELOP their leadership. They might not DEVELOP into the greatest leaders in the world. But, they can definately get better.

For anyone to suggest that Aaron Brooks (or ANYONE else for that matter) doesn\'t have any leadership qualities needs to learn more about the subject of leadership.



[Edited on 18/5/2004 by GumboBC]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Billy, you\'ll see that I agree with you (right here in this thread). However, it is not clear to me that anyone whatsoever has the ability to develop any talent whatsoever. Take someone with a serious brain-defect for example - that person cannot develop into a neuro-surgeon, no matter how much they practice.

While I agree 100% that AB could learn to be a leader, I don\'t think that this is JUST OBVIOUS based on the idea that many skills (comical, leaderly, or what-have-you) are developable.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Billy,

There is a second problem. Even if everyone is born with the ABILITY to lead, it is not clear to me that at some point it doesn\'t simply become to hard for them to learn to lead. Think of the most shy person you know. Barring some really weird circumstances, I think it would simply take too long and too much for them to become leaders - thus, one might say that they will not be a leader, ever. Keep in mind, I\'m playing devil\'s advocate here.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Let\'s break it down JKool. If ANYONE can get JUST ONE person to follow them, then that means they have the ability to lead. That doesn\'t mean that they are the best leader in the world, it means they have the ability to lead. So, I think that proves EVERYONE has the ABILITY to lead. (Unless, of course, they have brain damage, like you suggested)

Also something that is totally being overlooked is WHO are the folks that are being led. Ever heard the saying \"Too many chiefs and not enough indians?\" That saying suggests that some people are hard to lead. Take Terell Owens for example. He\'d be much tougher to lead than a lot of other players, cause he wants to be the leader.

Back to the point I\'m trying to make. If a person can lead at least ONE person. Why not two? If two, why not 4, etc, etc..

Leadership, like everything else, CAN get better. To suggest that someone can\'t get better at being a leader is to suggest they don\'t have the ability to begin with. To suggest they don\'t have the ability to begin with means they don\'t have the ability to get even ONE person to follow them.

So, when someone tells me that someone can be born without the ability to lead. I think that is a very short-sighted view and they really haven\'t done much research on the subject and are just repeating what they have heard..

[Edited on 18/5/2004 by GumboBC]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Being the natural born leader that I am and having developed that trait further, I\'d like to take the lead on this and suggest that this whole fricking topic DIE! DIE! DIE!

[Edited on 18/5/2004 by Danno]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Danno, are you suggesting that the topic of leadership doesn\'t interest you, beacause I got that feeling? ;)

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

How about the question raised, albeit indirectly, by Subguy? If not AB, then who should lead our offense. I\'m somewhat convinced by the following argument: it is more difficult for players at positions other than QB (aside from perhaps RB) to actually be the leader of the offense. Perhaps leadership by committee is possible?

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

I got that same feeling myself. :D But, it was interesting to me. I even learned a few things, from all sides of the arguement.

My conclusion: Leadership is instilled at birth to a certain degree. Everyone has the ability to lead. Some will just never be as good as others.

Final conclusion: Brooks isn\'t a great leader. Probably never will be great at it. But, he can get better.

[Edited on 18/5/2004 by GumboBC]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Perhaps we could call in Tony Robbins on all this leadership stuff. I\'ve watched his infomercials, so I know he\'d say it could be taught. :P

In my most humble opinion we all have the ability. To say we\'re born with genes that either allow it or not is WAY short sighted, again, in my most humble opinion.

Einstein wasn\'t just a poor student people, he was a poor MATH student. ;)

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

I was hoping Pak or 08 would actually dedicate a new seperate section to this leadership topic, so I don\'t see it re-hashed for the 8,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,th time! :mad:

Ooops, I need to take my affable pill.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Sorry Danno......one more then stick a fork in me i\'m done. To say one is born a leader may be strong, but to say one is born with certain personality traits may be more accurate. Here are some points, think of AB and think of the rest of the team.....who is classified where, including the coaching staff.

The really critical issues are \"relationship building,\" \"communications skills\" and \"inspiration.\" Clearly, leadership ability is a combination of personal traits and acquired skills. And rising toward the top of the list of characteristics that make a good leader: Integrity.

Leadership doesn\'t exist for its own sake. It comes from a passionate desire to bring about some kind of change,

There are three main attributes which effective leaders must develop:
The right personal attitudes
The ability to motivate others;
The skills to build and maintain a team.

Good managers are sometimes leaders; good leaders are sometimes managers. The distinction is primarily between action and enabling.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

:thumbup:...................:thumbup:.........................:thumbup: Sounds logical to me. Very well said.

I know some get tired of certain subjects, but I think there was a lot of intelligent thoughts on this subject and really none of the \"Brooks Sucks\" stuff. That\'s what I like to see...

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

I gotta say guys, when I saw the thread I also thought... \"not again.\" But, I think it was fun this time around. I think that Billy and Subguy have summed it up nicely. I\'m pretty satisfied. Good discussion. You know, none of us will be able to resist when this very discussion comes up again at mid-season... :)

Danno, apologies.

What happened to all the new guys from right around draft time? I\'m only wondering, because we ought to make them read this thread, so we don\'t have to go through it again.

PS - Brooks sucks... jk :cool:

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

PPS - \"Affable\" is such a good word, isn\'t it.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Not sure where the new guys are. You usually get more folks posting when something big is going on, such as the draft. I have noticed a LOT of new guys signing up, though.

Also, has anyone noticed B&G.net has been getting a face-lift? The home page looks different and I like the changes. You can see the last 3 or 4 topics of the forum on the home page. I think that will draw folks in here. Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone had noticed??

P.S -- I have to say, I have a lot of respect for the regular members here that post year round. Even though we have our different opinions, it makes it more fun during the regular season. Where\'s that tree ya\'ll been huggin\'??? :P

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Billy, I like the new sig.

I gotta agree with ya, the regulars around here are what keep me reading this board (that and the good discussion). What happened to WhoDat; I figured he\'d get in more than his two cents on this topic (maybe he agrees with Danno and it has been done more than often enough)?

The list of great regulars here is too numerous to mention, but I have to say, as long as we\'re huggin\' trees (and mmmm that tasty, tasty granola), you guys have (1) broadened my perspective, (2) more than adequately challenged my views, and (3) helped to make the sport I love even more interesting! You\'re all terrific people (at least as far as I can tell, \'cause I\'m sure some of yas dirty, dirty bast--ds ;) ).

Cheers.

PS - Gator, I hope the finals went well!
PPS - Danno, pills buddy, pills... besides, what else is there to talk about this time of year.
PPPS - I was tryin\' to think of something suitably antagonistic to get y\'all worked up, but I\'m just feelin\' too happy \'bout stuff these days.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

You\'re both absolutely right. A person develops most before the age of 3 and personality is largely determined before the age of 5 and generally by a person\'s parents or primary caretakers. I can go find studies if you would like. Point is, by the time you are cognizant of your ability to learn, your ability to become a natural leader has eroded.

Again, Brooks can learn to be a better manager. He can take classes and read books about good tactics as a \"leader\", but he will never have that thing that is intrinsic. C\'mon guys - are you really telling me that you believe that every person who is a good leader has knowingly learned how to lead well? Or you suggesting that every person can truly become a good leader? Trust me, I know a whole lot of people who couldn\'t convince a group of grammar school kids to follow them. You guys know this is true, you\'re arguing for the sake of argument.

I don\'t know how many more concessions I need to make. I\'ve said that AB can be a very good QB without leadership. I\'ve said he can go to the Pro Bowl without better skills as a leader. I\'ve said the Saints can win it all with him. You really want me to admit the guy has the ability to be a good leader? I\'ll tell you what, I\'ll admit that when certain members of this board admit that he is generally not a smart QB or an intelligent person in general. How\'s that?

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

I don\'t totally agree with you, but we\'re close!! Here was what I said. And that\'s my final answer Regis -- ;)



[Edited on 19/5/2004 by GumboBC]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Sorry Billy, must have missed that. Then we agree. Amazing. ;)

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

I don\'t exactly agree either, but WhoDat\'s position sounds pretty close. As noted in earlier posts, I don\'t think that you\'re done with your \"natural\" (whatever that means) leadership growth by the time you can learn (I\'m willing to let the psychologists hash this one out). IMPORTANTLY, though, I think we\'re all pretty darn close on this one (i.e. we\'re about as in agreement as we\'ve all ever been) - I\'m satisfied that the differences in positions here is probably merely verbal (description). How about that? Don\'t you feel like you\'ve actually discovered something new and had fun along the way? I know I do.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

JKool - please change your name to GranolaLover or something like that.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

\'common WhoDat, you love the granola... :P

ADMIT IT! ADMIT IT NOW! ;)