Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

I often hear fans complaining that Aaron Brooks is not a leader and he'll never be one. Considering the quarterback probably has more responsibility than any other player on the team -- I think it's a valid criticism. But, I think some fans place too much emphasis on the value of leadership at he QB position and give too much credit for leadership being responsible for winning games.

Leadership has it's value. But isn't the real question -- How much leadership counts for in terms of wins and losses? Just so we're clear on what the definition of leadership is. The following is defined by Webster's Dictonary as leadership:

LEADER - a person who rules or guides or inspires others.

Obviously, a quarterback doesn't "rule" his team. I think the complaint made by most fans is Aaron Brooks doesn't inspire his team like other quarterbacks do. Again, a fair complaint. But, how much inspiration is required by a quarterback and how much does it count for in terms of wins/losses?

Personally, I think leadership at the QB position is way overrated. If I look back at NFL teams before free-agency, when teams were dynasties, I see no compelling evidence that QB's led their teams to the super bowl because of their intangibles. Here's a list of some great super bowl teams:


XXIV - 1/28/90
Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers - Notre Dame (33)
John Elway, Denver Broncos - Stanford (29)

XXV - 1/27/91
Jeff Hostetler, New York Giants - West Virginia (29)
Jim Kelly, Buffalo Bills - Miami (FL) (30)

XXVI - 1/26/92
Mark Rypien, Washington Redskins - Washington State (30)
Jim Kelly, Buffalo Bills - Miami (FL) (31)

XXVII - 1/31/93
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - Oklahoma, UCLA (26)
Jim Kelly, Buffalo Bills - Miami (FL) (32)

XXVIII - 1/30/94
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - Oklahoma, UCLA (27)
Jim Kelly, Buffalo Bills - Miami (FL) (33)

XXIX - 1/29/95
Steve Young, San Francisco 49ers - BYU (33)
Stan Humphries, San Diego Chargers - NE Louisiana (29)

XXX - 1/28/96
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - Oklahoma, UCLA (29)
Neil O'Donnell, Pittsburgh Steelers - Maryland (29)



What I see is the most talented TEAMS usually made it to the big dance. And, those teams usually had very talented QB's. I think the talent these QB's had was way more responsible for their success than any intangible. Now, grated, some of these teams had great QB's, who were considered great leaders. However, these were simply the best TEAMS and they would have been successful with most anyone playing QB.

People lose sight that this is a team game and it takes a total team effort to be successful. And that is the KEY. For further proof that leadership is overrated. Where is Dan Marino at on this list?? He had all the intangibles anyone could ever want. Marino had all the talent a QB could ever want. Wasn't enough though. His leadership was of little help. As much as he might could inspire his teammates, it just didn't help that much. Like I said -- THIS IS A TEAM GAME -- It takes much more than a talented QB and it definantly takes much more than a QB that possesses great leadership or any intangible.

On the other hand, you had QB's like Jeff Hostetler, Mark Rypien, Stan Humphries, and Neil O'Donnell whose teams all went to the super bowl. Why did they make it? Simple. They had great teams. They had players that made plays. I don't think Hostetler inspired Lawrence Taylor or the rest of that defense. They were just a great and talented defense. I don't think Neil O'Donnell, Mark Rypien, or Stan Humphries led their team to the super bowl either. I don't think John Elway's leadership was largely responsible for the Broncos getting to the super bowl either. I think he was just an extremely talented QB that made plays. I'm sure it inspired his teammates, but his ability to make something out of nothing was probably the deciding factor. NOT LEADERSHIP.

So, when I see teams like Carolina make it with Jake Delhomme. Or, Tampa make it with Brad Johnson. Or, the Ravens make it with Trent Dilfer. I see way more compelling evidence that there were other things that were way more responsible than "leadership" at the QB positon that got them there.

So, for those of you that think Jake Delhomme's "leadership" got them to the super bowl. Well, that's an inspiring story. One that I think is far from the truth. And for those of you that think the reason the Saints aren't winning is because of a lack of "leadership from Aaron Brooks. Well, maybe he's just another Dan Marino.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Billy, AB is a poor leader, and he probably always will be. You\'re right, that doesn\'t mean that he is a bad QB or unworthy of his starting role. He can go to the Pro Bowl and never be a leader.

Now, that being said, yes every team needs a leader (usually a couple) on the field. People to inspire when need be, calm when need be, and keep players head in the right places. That player is usually the QB or RB on offense, and more often than not it\'s the QB.

Your list is uncompelling. In fact, I would say it contradicts your point. Are you suggesting that Montana, Elway, Kelly, Aikman, and Young weren\'t fantastic leaders? C\'mon. I get the point you\'re trying to make. The TEAM\'s talent and ability is more important than whether or not the QB is a leader. True - but then again, more often than not team\'s in the Super Bowl do have QBs who can lead. Coincidence or trend? You decide.

One unquestionable recent/emerging trend in the NFL is that of the average talent QB in the Super Bowl. Teams are winning more and more with mediocre QBs who are smart, efficient, and/or leaders. Unfortunately, Brooks is none of those things. You don\'t often see the Vicks, Culpeppers, Garcias, or Bledsoes in the Super Bowl, do you? (at least not recently) What you do see are the Dilfers, Johnsons, and Delhommes.

Now, obviously this trend does not mean that the Saints can never go to the SB with AB at the helm. However, fo a guy who has supported this team for follwing trends that have worked elsewhere around the league (spread offense, speed on defense, playmakers instead of ball control, etc.) - you seem to discount this other trend entirely simply b/c it means you would have to admit that AB has some limitations and that those limitations are potentially damaging to this team.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Obviously, you missed my POINT, WhoDat. My point was that leadership is OVERRATED. My list is what it is -- THE TRUTH -- Yes, SOME of these teams had QB\'s that were considered great leaders. The question is: What was MORE responsible for getting them there? You think it was leadership from the QB position??

Did the Giants get there because Hostetler \"led\" them there? Or, was it something else? Maybe that great defense they had? Or, that great running game they had and the fact that Hostetler could make some throws too? Or was it \"leadership\" from Hostetler?\" You decide.

How \'bout the 49\'ers, WhoDat? Was it Montana\'s \"leaderhip\" that was more responsible for getting them there? Or, the fact that he was an extremly talented QB that played with extremly talented team? Steve Young certainly stepped right in and took \'em right back to the Superbowl. Again, you decide.

How \'bout -- Neil O\'Donnell, Mark Rypien, or Stan Humphries?? Did these QB\'s \" lead\" thier teams to the super bowl? Or, did the rest of the team have more to do with the teams success that really had nothing to do with \"leadership\" from the QB position? Again, you decide.

My point, in case you missed it, is this is a TEAM GAME and leadership has it\'s place, but is way down on the list of reasons why a team is successful. YOU DECIDE....



[Edited on 13/5/2004 by GumboBC]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

P.S. -- I did not start this thread to suggest Brooks is a great leader. For the record, I do not believe Brooks is a great leader, nor do I know if he\'ll ever be. That is not the point I\'m trying to make.

My point is, I think leadership at the QB position is highly overrated by a lot of fans. Even WhoDat has said he agrees with me on that...

My whole point is that leadership has it\'s place, but it\'s way down the list.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

How much of a role does leadership play in the confidence of a team?

Not the confidence of a team before a game starts, but the confidence when they\'re down by two scores, when it\'s third and long, or when the defense must find a way to get off the field?

Leadership is what resurrects confidence when the chips are down, the odds are long, and the road is steep.

Can AB provide that? I think so, and I\'ll tell you why. His smile. That annoying laugh on the sidelines that fans complain about after a pick or bad play. His ability to shrug off the negative will be the source of his leadership, because when he combines that with polished ability, it will be something the team can find confidence in.

It doesn\'t matter how talented the team is if they don\'t believe they can do what needs to be done, and the measure of a man is his confidence when all seems lost. AB can be that guy, that believes it can be done when there\'s a long way to go and no time to get there. He\'s done it.

The pieces will come together. The improvement will continue. The Lombardi trophy will be in New Orleans, and we are going to tear the town down celebrating it. Believe.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Let me first say that leadership has it\'s place. You\'re getting into confidence vs. leadership and I think it really doesn\'t have any relevance. You can be the most talented person and the most confident person and not be a leader.

I think a player must be confident in his abilites or it will hurt him. I do not think a player has to be a leader to be confident.

I think as long as Aaron Brooks does his job, along with the rest of the players, we will be fine. Samething for Deuce. He needs to be confident in his abilities and do his job. Deuce has been inspiring players and fans alike with his ability to run the ball. If he wasn\'t great at running the ball, no one would care how professinal Deuce was or how much of a character guy he was. He just needs to run the ball effectively.

If I were a player and my teammates were doing their job and we had a chance of winning a game. That would inspire me to do everything possible to make sure we won. I wouldn\'t need Aaron or Deuce to inspire me in any other way but doing a good job and giving this team a chance to win.

Good post, though. You do have some points.

[Edited on 13/5/2004 by GumboBC]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

I\'m not saying that I speak for everyone here about AB, but this is my take and I have a feeling a few may agree with some of what I say. I\'m sure that everyone remembers when Bobby Hebert was the Saints QB. He might not have been the greatest leader, and had some of his worst games in the playoff crunch, but he was a fiery competitor who wasn\'t afraid to get in the face of a teammate when that person screwed up. He also would take blame for when he made mistakes as well. AB lacks the fire that a lot of \"leaders\" have. He\'s, at times, too passive. The only emotion he usually shows is when he\'s playing well. When he plays poorly, he seems to have a blank expression or that naive smile on his face. I know players are different in the way they express themselves, but if AB wants complete and total respect from his teammates, he needs to set them straight when they drop a pass, do a poor job of route running, or miss a block causing him to be sacked or Deuce dropped behind the line. Then again, someone else needs to be on his butt whenever he fumbles or throws into triple coverage. This is a TEAM effort, I agree, but this should be AB\'s offense. They don\'t call a QB the field general for nothing. General\'s lead.....troops follow. If your general doesn\'t do his job, then the troops will go AWOL. I\'d just love to see AB get in someone\'s face ONCE. Then it would show me that he is serious about winning and not just signing his paycheck.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

D_it_up2 -

I understand your position. But, are you saying the in-your-face QB\'s are more effective? I loved Bobby Hebert because of that. But, in the end, he failed his team more times than not.

I remember our offense leading the NFL in scoring a couple of years ago. Did Brooks have leadership qualities then? Did he lose them last year? Was his leadership responsible for us leading the league in scoring and was his lack of leadership responsible for our offensive short-comings last year.

I believe that leadership at the QB position is way overrated.

The supporting cast plays a huge role in football.


[Edited on 14/5/2004 by GumboBC]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Terrell Owens?

The mystery here, and one that we will find tough to answer, is do the other players have confidence in Brooks, or do they question him in the moment of truth? Every player will say to the fans and media that they back him. That is professional courtesy by any player. Do they believe that? Brooks is a top tier talent that has unpredictable and often catastrophical lapses in focus. When does a teammate begin to worry more about one happening than focusing on his role at the given time?

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Now we\'re getting into: Do players quit on Brooks, either conciously or sub-couciously?

Here\'s my arguement......

We had one of the highest scoring offenses, if not the highest, in the league a couple of years ago. Brooks was the QB then. I never heard anyone quitting on him then. Now, we\'re suggesting that players have no confidence in him and don\'t play hard for him?

Seems unlikely to me lummOx. Everyone is going to have to decide for themselves.

You remember the samethings were being said about Peyton Manning a couple of years ago. Vanderjack, or whatever the kicker\'s name was came out and openly said it. Well, we see what Peyton did last year. I\'ve said it once and I\'ll say it again.... Too much had been made of the leadership, or lack of, at the QB position. Not just for Brooks, but for Peyton Manning too.





[Edited on 14/5/2004 by GumboBC]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

How about we start with the player at the position in the system .

Is Brooks the quarterback for a team that has the Hogs and loves to grind the ball ??
No......

Is Brooks a quarterback in a deviation of a westcoast offensive structure ???
Yes .......

Now why don\'t we look at the player in the system ???

In a WCO,

The quarterback must be a poised leader who manages a team well. He should be accurate and be able to throw all the different types of passes. He needs to quickly read defenses and get rid of the ball quickly. Because of the deception involved in the WCO, a good ball handler is a big plus. Most importantly, a quarterback\'s teammates must believe in him.

wide receivers must be good (precise) route runners. They need to be able to read defenses and adjust their routes during the play based on the coverage as it develops. They should have good hands, be quick in and out of their cuts (to separate from defenders), and be good runners after the catch (the WCO depends on yards after the catch).

tight ends must be able to read defenses, get open, and make the clutch catch over the middle of the defense. Getting off the line of scrimmage quickly is critical.

running backs must be good receivers, have good hands and be able to pick up the blitz. Elusiveness is also a big plus since the running back will be able to pick up big yardage after the catch if he can make one or two defenders miss.

Now let\'s break this down :

Brooks .... No

Brooks ..... No

Brooks .... No

Butterfinger Brooks ..... No

Brooks ..... Questionable

Simple math dictates , Wrong quarterback in the system ......... ;)








[Edited on 14/5/2004 by saintz08]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

08 - I have this same post on another board. gerryv of Sports Radio 1280 WODT AM commented on it and here\'s what he said. It pertains to exactly what I think you are confused about. Remember this post was about leadership ;)

Anyway here is gerryv\'s post:

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Wrong player in the system and why would other players believe ???

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

LOL -- :D

08 -- I know you know your football. I know you\'ll stick to your guns about Brooks and Haslett and we\'ll just keep dancin\' around the floor and never change each other\'s minds.

I expect nothing less. The more I keep typing :yltype: The more frustrated I shall get -

So, I\'m going to sit this dance out...LOL

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Leadership in football is most important when it comes from the head coach. Like any manager of people, he has the authority to praise, scold, encourage, correct, and teach his personnel. It is in fact, his duty to do just that. The coach is the commander in chief.

The quarterback is known as the field general. This title had more meaning in the era when the QB called all of the offensive plays with no instruction from the sidelines. The quarterback must know where each player is to line up and where they are going on each play. All other players are in most cases only required to know their assignments or theirs and a limited number of the other players. The other 10 players on the field do expect the QB to know what he is doing and make sound descisions. The ability and history of making plays creates confidence by others in a player at any position.

In todays NFL with prima donnas and fragile egos its more delicate for any player on the team to be a chop buster, calling other players on their mistakes. For the quarterback to do so he must also be willing to take it in return. Do you think it would build team chemistry to have the leader of the offensive line to get in the QBs face because he took a sack instead of stepping up in the pocket or getting rid of the ball sooner? How about the receivers doing the same after a poorly thrown pass or an interception? Again, this is better served by the coaching staff.

One of the areas of Billys post earlier in this thread that stands out is the ages of the Super Bowl QBs he cited. Someone should gather the ages of all 70 something QBs that have started in the Super Bowl and see what the average age is. Some where young, David Woodley 25 years ago and more recently Tom Brady as examples, but I would bet most have had more than 3 years starting experience and would have an average age in the late 20s. My point here is that when you call these guys LEADERS because their team reached the super bowl what must first be acknowledged is that they had experience.

The Brooks Bashers here don\'t seem to consider that AB has only started 3 1/2 seasons. He is a leader if you define it by the ability to rally the team to victory by making plays and inspiring others to do the same. He has done that. In case none of you have noticed, he is on a wicked pace to shatter all of the Saints positive passing records. He now has experience and has put skins on the wall as far as stats and comebacks. He is in the prime of his career now and I do agree that it is time for him to take his game up a notch and lead this team to new heights. This is a team sport though and one player alone, superman as one may be at his position, can\'t by himself win a championship.
A few players of note that never got there were Dan Fouts, Fran Tarkenton, Archie Manning, Earl Campbell, O.J. Simpson, and Barry Sanders.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

SaintNik -- Big :thumbup: on that post.

I thought you really got to the heart of the issue and made some very good points.

I\'m going to wait and comment on what I think are some key points of your post. I wanna see what some other members have to say and I don\'t want to \"muddy the waters\" as WhoDat says I do sometimes... ;)

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Truer words may never have been spoken. So much of leadership stems from simple accountability: the ownership of ones actions and the consequences of those actions.

Has Haslett owned and taken accountability for the shortcomings and underachievements of his team the last three years?

There will never be any excuses for the Saints. I may never forgive sweeping the Bucs only to see Tampa Bay win the Super Bowl, but the question stands.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

For the record, I am glad to see BC back on the boards (been meaning to say that for a while now). He always livens things up. However, it makes me wonder at every time \'08 posts something remotely negative, he gets called out on his alleged agenda. Yet this post, which is a purely open attempt to support Brooks (who we all know BC supports - to the death) gets not a peep from the \"agenda-hounds\". Just an interesting observation.....

I don\'t like Brooks. I think he is extremely overrated by a lot of people. Even with this good press, if you go back to his scouting reports some doubted his mental ability to be the QB. Even now, you can find as many articles that point out his flaws, as praise him. I tend to agree with the former. As Brooks is still booed when he shows up in public (happened at a BB game a couple months ago, as a matter of fact) a lot of the other fans in N.O. feel the same way.

Brooks stats are reasonably good, but not so good such as to eliminate my concerns in his obvious mental lapses during games. Watching him completely fall apart last year against Tampa was just so painful to watch. This is his fifth year driving the bus and maybe (finally) he will \"mature\" into the alleged potential that some see in him - I\'m not optimistic about it though. My hope for this year (and last year for that matter) is that Deuce can carry the offense and the defense would magically turn into the Dome Patrol.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

No Billy, I got your point entirely... you\'re wrong. Leadership is valued exactly as it should be in this league, IMO. YOU undervalue it and are downplaying its importance. Further, you talk about team talent and how important it is and then show us SB teams from over a decade ago? That\'s not today\'s NFL Billy Boy.

You think New England is a power house b/c of their \"Super Stars\"? They have great talent? What about Carolina? New York? Baltimore? Certainly you cannot make it to the SB if you are devoid of talented players. However, parity in the league mean just about any team has the talent to get to the SB assuming there is a good coach who can get the most of his players. PART of that means leadership. Leadership from the coach and leadership on the field. Yes, EVERY successful team has to have it. That is definitely part of why we fail.

Further, to suggest this had nothing to do with Brooks is ridiculous. Why then did you list the Super Bowl QUARTERBACKS? Further, I said in my earlier post that the leader is not always the QB. In fact, I said:

\"You\'re right, that doesn\'t mean that he is a bad QB or unworthy of his starting role. He can go to the Pro Bowl and never be a leader.

Now, that being said, yes every team needs a leader (usually a couple) on the field. People to inspire when need be, calm when need be, and keep players head in the right places. That player is usually the QB or RB on offense, and more often than not it\'s the QB. \"

Ray Lewis was Baltimore\'s leader. Sapp and Brooks were Tampa\'s. It doesn\'t HAVE to be a QB, but EVERY good team has solid leaders in their coach and in certain players on the field. This team is without leadership right now, and the place that it MOST OFTEN materializes (in the QB position) it is not and probably will not come from.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

An interesting point to this came out of the Dallas camp last year about midseason . During the games Quincy Carter would line up at the line and maybe a player was in the wrong position or the defense showed him something he did not like , for whatever reason Quincy would call timeout and head to the sidelines and discuss it with Parcels .About midseason in Parcels first year it stopped , Parcels waved Carter back to the huddle , Carter kept approaching Parcels confused . Parcels went out to meet him and the statement was clear .Parcells told Carter to stop running to the sidelines everytime something was wrong , the offense was Carters and for Carter to fix it out there and take charge of what was going on out on the field .

Parcels knows , the Head Coach is just a spectator once the 11 men reach the huddle ... ;)

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

FrenzyFan -- Thanks for the welcome. It\'s good to be back. I don\'t know if I have an agenda, other than trying to get to the truth about some things. I\'m not saying that I\'m always right, or that I\'m ever right. But, I say what I feel is the truth. Everyone has the right to beleive what they choose. I don\'t know about the \"agenda-hounds\" not calling me on this post -- They seem to be doing a good job -- :D

WhoDat --

I might be wrong WhoDat. Leadership might be the number one thing you look for when drafting a QB. Maybe that\'s been the number one problem on this team. Maybe if Brooks chewed a few folks out we would have won a super bowl by now and all this talent would have played up to potential. Maybe, Joe Horn and the receivers wouldn\'t have dropped all those passes last year. Maybe the special teams would have been special last year. Maybe the defense would have been one of the better units in the league.

Now, we can belive Brooks\' leadership could have changed all that OR we can believe that something else was responsible for that. I think you know that Brooks\' leadership was not responsible for that nor could have it changed any of it. That\'s why I say leadership is being blown way out of porportion. Like I said, everyone will have to decide for themselves.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Brooks\' leadership abilities (or lack thereof) aside, our offense scores enough to win people, leadership smeadership. When our defense steps up and stops allowing 17-20 points a game we\'ll have a fighting chance.

See, we can debate (again) the leadership of Brooks and the QB position and all that stuff, but the REAL question is who\'s gonna step up and lead the team on defense. Honestly, Joe Horn running out of the end zone to hand that ball to Brooks last year told me all I needed to know about the respect he (and probably others) has for Brooks. We\'ve also go Deuce and Joe (and Jerry is back again which is good news) and there are other players on offense capable to providing this \"leadership\" thing. We need it on Defense guys...doncha think?

[Edited on 14/5/2004 by saintfan]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

I THINK we covered \"leadership\" enough to satisfy my curiosity. There\'s another subject that is brought up about Brooks that had me curious. There\'s some members that claim Brooks can\'t read defenses. They claim he locks onto Joe Horn and doesn\'t distribute the ball around. Well, I compared Brooks distribution to some other QB\'s around the league and here\'s what I found.....


Peyton Manning - 379 Completions
M.Harrison 102 -26.9%
D.Clark 56- 14.7%
D.Haddad 41- 10.8%
A.Moorehead 35 -9.2%
B.Allen 23
R.Redd 22

Aaron Brooks - 306 completions
Joe Horn 78 -25.4%
Deuce McAllister 69 -22.5%
Jerome Pathon 44 - 14.3%
Boo Williams 41 -13.3%
Ernie Conwell 26 8.4%
Donte\' Stallworth 25 -8.1%

Tom Brady - 373 Completions
Troy Brown 97 -26.0%
David Patten 61- 16.3%
Deion Branch 43- 11.5%
Kevin Faulk 37- 9.9%
Antowain Smith 31- 8.3%
Christian Fauria 27- 7.2%


Looks to me, Brooks distributes the ball around better than ANY of those QB\'s??

What ya\'ll think??

[Edited on 14/5/2004 by GumboBC]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

I wonder how many of those 69 completions to Deuce are designed passes to Deuce or just broken plays that our sandlot QB is trying to improvise?

I\'m not sure those numbers demonstrate any Brooksian prowess in reading defenses, but maybe astonishing luck in pulling something from his colon on the fly?

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

So, basically you\'re saying you don\'t know if Brooks is throwing to correct read or not? Sounds like what you\'re saying to me......

Which is what I thought when folks complain about Brooks not thowing to right player.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Actually I wonder if Deuce is the automatic 2nd receiver on every play. Does Brooks look to Horn and then dump it off to Deuce if Horn can\'t get separation? It looks more like sandlot ball than anything. If we ran more of a Raiders style short passing attack it would make more sense for Deuce to have so many receptions. Or is it just a designed homage to the way the Rams used to use Faulk or the way the Eagles used Staley?

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Here\'s the point, BMG. The point is, some of you guys make remarks about him not distributing the ball enough and say he can\'t read defenses. That\'s all good, you can say whatever you want. But the truth is, you guys do very little to back those statements up. I can make a better arguement that Peyton Manning locks onto Marvin Harrison than what you guys just randomly post.

I can make all kinds of statements. I can say Joe Horn is selfish, inconsistant, causes terrible team chemistry problems, and that Joe Horn is a BIG distration -- But, is it true?

I could say Joe Horn runs the wrong routes and gives up on plays. But, is it true. I\'d think I\'d need to bring up some proof that these things happen. I see no evidence that what ya\'ll are saying is the truth. What I see is just the opposite is true.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Aaron couldnt have won our playoff game if he wasnt a leader. We should be grateful to the man and stay off his back.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Some might argue that point and say Hakim gave it too the Saints ....... ;)

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Maybe so, Maybe not, but how many points did the team score? If the defense hadn\'t let \'em back in the game Hakim\'s little bit of misfortune wouldn\'t have mattered much. ;)

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

I\'m going to change my name to \"spreadingtrutheverywhere.\" ;)

Let me spread a litte \"truth\" now!!

We led 31-7 in the 4th quarter. The offense really let us down. How many points did you want the offense to score 08? -- 45, 65, 98??? How much would they have had to score to please you? You might want to examine why they were even in the game.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

If anyone wants to read more about that game. Here\'s a good article on it..


http://www.sptimes.com/News/123100/S...e_rally_.shtml


This is my favorite part......... :D



[Edited on 14/5/2004 by GumboBC]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

speakin of leaders

http://espn.go.com/media/pg2/2002/09...o/ditka_sp.jpg

http://www.freep.com/art/photogal/lionsr4/r4.6.jpg

http://www.jsonline.com/packer/image...r/billy711.jpg

[Edited on 14/5/2004 by DatFu]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Billy .....can you not let this rest? There has always been and always will be division on this topic. There are those living with pipe dreams and those that support our team but are realistic with the faults regardless of what we are talking about. AB is not a leader and never will be a leader. Leadership is not a taught behaviour. Respect is not dropped on you. These are part of a personality and respect is earned. Leadership is highly valued in all walks of life. Football or any organized sport are no different. Highly effective CEO\'s are generally great leaders. The list you compiled totally refuted your argument. I see a list of leaders. At least the vast majority. AB lacks the meantal maturity,giggling during the Indy a** whooping is a fine example. Talent wise, the guy is a fine athlete. He did better this past with being more careful with his passes, now we have the fumble issue to conquer. Football is a many man effort.....so when people say why blame AB for the teams lack of success.....how can we give him credit for the playoff win? The defense has to help support the team also. No team will ever have a chance without cohesiveness. So leadership smeadershp back at you. Without leaders there is chaos......look at the dysfunctional family of the NFL ........New Orleans

PS. The Bengals have always had the same issues...no leadership anywhere......top down.....last year a glimmer we will see what leadership may bring them this season.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

(1) There is a difference between giggling and smiling. One is a nervous habit that others need to get over, the other is just plain stupid. I, for one, don\'t remember any giggling.

(2) Isn\'t odd that everyone thinks they are a realist, no matter what side of the fence they are on.

(3) Leadership is a learned behavior. Granted it is probably too late for AB, but no one is born a leader. How many 6 month olds do you know who are great leaders? That is, leadership is not purely genetic (if at all), so you must learn it somehow - wether it is great role models, great parenting, making the most of your relation to your environment, or whathaveyou. It is not at all clear to me that people cannot improve who they are and become leaders; in fact, isn\'t there some wisdom to the idea that tough situations make great leaders - that is, leadership is born of need in many cases?

(4) As has been repeated over and over and over again, there is no need for the QB to be the leader of the team. It would be nice sure, since he is such a visible member of the team, but, as Billy points out, teams can be very successful (NO MATTER HOW YOU MEASURE SUCCESS) without a leader at the QB position.

(5) Here in the USA, we think that a pill can get you over \"social anxeity\", which amounts more-or-less to \"being shy\". Why in the world would we think that someone who is not a leader couldn\'t become one. I\'ve seen 18 yr. old bums mature in just one year (the difference between the kids who are freshmen and them when they are sophomores is HUGE). Why couldn\'t AB have grown up finally? I see no reason to think that \"growing up\" isn\'t delayed in the NFL - for goodness sake these are men who play a game for a living. I bet sooner or later it dawns on you that this is your job and not just a game. I see every reason to think that AB hasn\'t reached that revelation (espc. the quotes in this thread); this gives me reason to hope he might just suddenly grow up and be a leader. Why do you think it is impossible?

Ok, I think I\'m done ranting. We\'ll see...

PS - It there is some topic you don\'t feel like revisiting, don\'t read it.

PPS - Ok, I think that was suitably antagonistic. :D

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

As Shakespeare once said:

Shakespeare’s Twelfth Night: “Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.�

[Edited on 16/5/2004 by GumboBC]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

One last thing on this \"leadership\" subject.

Some people think that \"leaders\" are \"leaders\" and they believe that if someone is \"born\" a leader that it will serve them well in all walks of life. However, this is a totally false assumption.

\"Leaders\" are called \"leaders\" because other people are willing to \"follow\" them. People usually follow others because they have shown to have a certain \"skill\" that is successful.

While John Elway was able to lead his men on the football field, I don\'t know too many people that would be willing to follow Elway into battle in Iraq with machine guns in hand.

In short, if John Elway wasn\'t a \"skilled\" soldier that could demsonstrate he was good on the battle field, no one would follow him. Not for long at least. They would soon lose confidence in his leadership. But, because John Elway proved he could throw the football and make plays with his feet, other players believed in him and were willing to follow him

It wasn\'t because John Elway was a \"born\" leader that other players \"followed\" him. It was because he demonstrated to have certain skills that were successful on the football field.

And that\'s the thing Aaron Brooks must do before players on the team will truly believe in him. He must demonstrate that he ccan make plays when needed. It\'s much less to do about Aaron being a \"born\" leader. It\'s about proving himself.



[Edited on 17/5/2004 by GumboBC]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

I now see the light...........I was incorrect..........I am sure this will be the year.....as was last year and the year before and so on and so on. I now believe that AB is not immature and is a qualified leader. One of the qualities that make someone a great leader is charisma. How do you teach charisma? AB needs to prove something to the naysayers and everyone will gladly eat a plate of crow and shut their mouths. Fact is he hasn\'t done that. Until that time he will face criticizm and scrutiny, rightfully so. One does not wake up one morning after a visit from the leadership fairy and \"poof\" he is a leader. There are certain traits and characteristics that make a leader and I have not obeserved any in AB. Elway was a leader where he was suppose to be a leader, on the football field. Who cares about what Elway might do in Iraq? I dont think it is odd at all that people think they are realists regardless of which side of the fence they are on. It is called conviction,having a point of view. Also I dont think Billy pointed out his success quotient at all. Have you looked at the majority of the names on his list? Leaders on the gridiron. As a refresher, review your film, after the starters were for the most part pulled in the 4th quarter of the Indy game, yes AB was standing on the sidelines joking it up. As far as a nervous habit and giggling or smiling or laughing, after an interception that is clearly a maturity/leadership issue. Although Marino may not of taken the Fins to the Pearly Gates do you not consider him a leader, a field general? Do you recall Marino smiling after throwing an interception? I only recall him cussing at himself and disgusted by his mistake. Did Marino exhibit his leadership abilities? His receivers knew who the leader was. Once again, this has nothing to do with AB\'s athletic abilty. AB has talent and yes it will take a full team effort. The past season\'s when we have collapsed who has stepped forward to be the guy\'s to rally the troops, offensively or defensively? That is part of what this team lacks. The coaches can do some of it, but players need to step up to help the cause.

[Edited on 17/5/2004 by subguy]

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

BC, nice quote. I agree.

Subguy, I respect your view. I also agree that AB is not a leader, but I say \"yet\" instead of \"never\". Can that \"yet\" be proven? No. But, the \"never\" is certainly unwarranted. No one was trying to suggest you were wrong; we were merely pointing out that people who think AB isn\'t a leader suffer two problems: (1) leadership is overrated (though, I\'m not sure what I think about that yet, Billy et.al. have given me stuff to think about), and (2) there isn\'t enough evidence, given what we can say about leadership and players in the NFL, to say that AB will never be a leader.

Interestingly, it seems there are several components to leadership:
(1) Physical skill - lead by doing (it is clear that AB COULD do this)
(2) Ability under pressure - lead by coming through when others need you, making big plays, and doing things that help others succeed in the face of adversity (this is something that AB gets mixed reviews on)
(3) Charisma - lead by communcating well with others (it is clear to me that AB is NOT doing this right now - but see my earlier \"growing up\" argument)
(4) Others?

As far as the interceptions thingy - I don\'t see why anyone cares what you look like after a pick, so long as you go back on the field and do your job. I used to play with a guy who\'d get upset, then he\'d go back out and do stupid stuff - forcing the ball all over the place to make a point. Who needs that!? I\'d rather have the guy who shrugs it off and does his job.

I like the idea of a leadership fairy; that made me laugh.

My point about realism had nothing to do with having a view. It is plain as day to me that everyone here has a view; I meant it was just odd that everyone cites \"realism\" as a virtue of their particular view, when they can\'t all possibly be right (realistic?). That was just a comment not a criticism of anyone.

Aaron Brooks and leadership
 

Where else but B&G? And you gotta like that! :D