Saints need to make a move on Andre Carter before the Patriots

Seer1 · 07-24-2012, 09:34 AM

In Spags we trust..........okay, okay, in Spags we hope!

FinSaint · 07-24-2012, 10:17 AM

I seriously doubt that Carter is willing to go for a try-out type of a deal - he'll want guaranteed money up front, and it'll all come from Mr. Benson's pocket who just spend boatloads to sign Brees.

Bringing in loads of guys could also be interpreted by the players themselves as a signal that the staff doesn't fully believe in their abilities, which could have a negative impact on their performances leading up to the preseason. I do fully support the notion of creating competition within the different positions to get the best out of the players, but if there already exists a sufficient level of competition... I don't see the point in bringing in more guys who are not familiar with the system the other guys have been getting familiar with for the past two months.

And, naturally, the argument can be made that players should understand that it's a business and that bringing in new guys to compete is part of the NFL business and not take it personally, but there are a lot of young guys on the roster who have not yet build up their confidences to the level they are with vets, so I'd be hesitant to introduce anything to the team that might jeopardize their state-of-mind, especially with the otherwise crazy offseason the Saints have already had.

Now, if we were talking about bringing in a true impact player, as in someone like Freeney, I'd be all ears, but we are talking about a rotational player at best, so it has to be a "no" on bringing him in, IMO.

Utah_Saint · 07-24-2012, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

I seriously doubt that Carter is willing to go for a try-out type of a deal - he'll want guaranteed money up front, and it'll all come from Mr. Benson's pocket who just spend boatloads to sign Brees.

Bringing in loads of guys could also be interpreted by the players themselves as a signal that the staff doesn't fully believe in their abilities, which could have a negative impact on their performances leading up to the preseason. I do fully support the notion of creating competition within the different positions to get the best out of the players, but if there already exists a sufficient level of competition... I don't see the point in bringing in more guys who are not familiar with the system the other guys have been getting familiar with for the past two months.

And, naturally, the argument can be made that players should understand that it's a business and that bringing in new guys to compete is part of the NFL business and not take it personally, but there are a lot of young guys on the roster who have not yet build up their confidences to the level they are with vets, so I'd be hesitant to introduce anything to the team that might jeopardize their state-of-mind, especially with the otherwise crazy offseason the Saints have already had.

Now, if we were talking about bringing in a true impact player, as in someone like Freeney, I'd be all ears, but we are talking about a rotational player at best, so it has to be a "no" on bringing him in, IMO.

I see your point. I don't think the "it's just business" attitude plays well with the "It's us against them" motivational aspect.

TheOak · 07-24-2012, 10:33 AM

Every player know that each spot is earned that year.... Warm bodies are brought in every year to motivate performance... They know they have to earn their seat at the table.

Remember the Beer Truck guy.. Micheal Lewis? Its common practice.
Those who don't want to meet the terms of preform to get a spot can refuse the offer.

No Body's that became somebody's.

Micheal Lewis
Kurt Warner
John Randel
Rod Smith
Priest Holmes
James Harrison
Antonio Gates
Wes Welker
Jeff Saturday

ALL un-drafted.. ALL unknowns.... that someone brought into camp to see what they could do.

FinSaint · 07-24-2012, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by x626xBlack

Every player know that each spot is earned that year.... Warm bodies are brought in every year to motivate performance... They know they have to earn their seat at the table.

Remember the Beer Truck guy.. Micheal Lewis? Its common practice.
Those who don't want to meet the terms of preform to get a spot can refuse the offer.

No Body's that became somebody's.

Micheal Lewis
Kurt Warner
John Randel
Rod Smith
Priest Holmes
James Harrison
Antonio Gates
Wes Welker
Jeff Saturday

ALL un-drafted.. ALL unknowns.... that someone brought into camp to see what they could do.

While fine examples of guys who made it against the odds, those guys really aren't valid comparables to the situation Carter is in right now. Like I said before, I'm not against bringing in a big ticket impact player at this point in the offseason or some young guys looking to prove themselves worthy of a roster spot - but I'm against bringing in a vet who had a horrendous injury late last season and who, while being really effective, played in a 3-4 scheme next to Vince Wilfork.

My issue is not with bringing in guys to take a look at, but it's with bringing in Carter and, IMO, wasting money on him. Naturally I could be dead wrong about him, but I just don't see him as a risk worthwhile taking.

TheOak · 07-24-2012, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

While fine examples of guys who made it against the odds, those guys really aren't valid comparables to the situation Carter is in right now. Like I said before, I'm not against bringing in a big ticket impact player at this point in the offseason or some young guys looking to prove themselves worthy of a roster spot - but I'm against bringing in a vet who had a horrendous injury late last season and who, while being really effective, played in a 3-4 scheme next to Vince Wilfork.

My issue is not with bringing in guys to take a look at, but it's with bringing in Carter and, IMO, wasting money on him. Naturally I could be dead wrong about him, but I just don't see him as a risk worthwhile taking.

Horrendous injury... Like ... ummm Drew Brees? How are you wasting money.... if he doesn't preform.. you CUT HIM.

burningmetal · 07-24-2012, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by x626xBlack

Horrendous injury... Like ... ummm Drew Brees? How are you wasting money.... if he doesn't preform.. you CUT HIM.

Your comparisons aren't making a lot of sense to me. The players you named above were not coming off injury, nor were they in their 30's. And Drew Brees' injury was completely different. It wasn't good, but it wasn't the same as blowing out a knee. The only reason teams hesitated on signing Drew is because they didn't know for sure if he'd heal enough to warrant the money he was asking for. But Drew was still young. Carter is not. The guy has been a bust for all but one year, which was last year.

He was purely a system player. Aside from the 10 sacks he wasn't a consistent force. I'd rather a guy who plays every down and consistently pushes the pocket, then to have a guy who comes in on 3rd down. Martez Wilson is perfectly suited for that role right now, as is Gallette. Carter will not be effective for whomever he signs with, in my opinion.

vpheughan · 07-24-2012, 05:27 PM

Blowing out your throwing shoulder isn't like blowing a knee? If you are a QB it is, just ask Greg Cook!

burningmetal · 07-24-2012, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by vpheughan

Blowing out your throwing shoulder isn't like blowing a knee? If you are a QB it is, just ask Greg Cook!

He tore his labrum. That kind of thing generally heals much better, not faster, but better than tearing an ACL or MCL. In your knees you're dealing with cartilage, and when that cartilage starts to wear down the pain becomes unbearable for these guys to run on. A shoulder injury can be tricky, but if it heals at all, it heals 100%. People were worried about whether Drew would be able to throw again, and frankly I don't know why.

In baseball, pitchers tear labrums all the time, and they throw a lot more violently than quarterbacks, yet they come back.

FinSaint · 07-24-2012, 07:13 PM

From 2001 up until 2010, Carter had averaged 6.6 sacks per season in that 10 season timespan, while only having had double digit seasons thrice (2002, 2007, 2009). And with the 10 sacks from last season that average only increases to 6.9 sacks, so I wouldn't see it as realistic to think that with the injury rehab he'd be a shoe-in for a double digit sacks season if the Saints were to bring him in.

As a comparison, Will Smith has had an average of 7.7 sacks per season during his 8 seasons (2004-2011), while having had double digit seasons only twice in that timespan (2006, 2009). Also, Smith has about 5 tackles more overall per season than Carter. So, it would seem that while some have suggested Smith might be on his way out in New Orleans, his sack stats measure quite well against those of Carter's, who on the contrary some see as an improvement to the Saints' pass rushing game. And I might very well agree that he would be a nice addition as almost an equal to Smith's production, if it weren't for his injury late last season and the fact that he is 2 years older than Smith.

BTW, there aren't any significant differences in the amount of starts or games played both guys have had during their careers, so the numbers are quite comparable, at least in this limited instance.

07-24-2012, 09:34 AM	#1
Seer1 Site Donor Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Bayou Bayfield CO Posts: 4,722	In Spags we trust..........okay, okay, in Spags we hope! Rugby Saint II likes this.

07-24-2012, 10:17 AM	#2
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,964	I seriously doubt that Carter is willing to go for a try-out type of a deal - he'll want guaranteed money up front, and it'll all come from Mr. Benson's pocket who just spend boatloads to sign Brees. Bringing in loads of guys could also be interpreted by the players themselves as a signal that the staff doesn't fully believe in their abilities, which could have a negative impact on their performances leading up to the preseason. I do fully support the notion of creating competition within the different positions to get the best out of the players, but if there already exists a sufficient level of competition... I don't see the point in bringing in more guys who are not familiar with the system the other guys have been getting familiar with for the past two months. And, naturally, the argument can be made that players should understand that it's a business and that bringing in new guys to compete is part of the NFL business and not take it personally, but there are a lot of young guys on the roster who have not yet build up their confidences to the level they are with vets, so I'd be hesitant to introduce anything to the team that might jeopardize their state-of-mind, especially with the otherwise crazy offseason the Saints have already had. Now, if we were talking about bringing in a true impact player, as in someone like Freeney, I'd be all ears, but we are talking about a rotational player at best, so it has to be a "no" on bringing him in, IMO. burningmetal likes this.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

07-24-2012, 10:33 AM	#3
Utah_Saint Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 3,521	Originally Posted by FinSaint I seriously doubt that Carter is willing to go for a try-out type of a deal - he'll want guaranteed money up front, and it'll all come from Mr. Benson's pocket who just spend boatloads to sign Brees. Bringing in loads of guys could also be interpreted by the players themselves as a signal that the staff doesn't fully believe in their abilities, which could have a negative impact on their performances leading up to the preseason. I do fully support the notion of creating competition within the different positions to get the best out of the players, but if there already exists a sufficient level of competition... I don't see the point in bringing in more guys who are not familiar with the system the other guys have been getting familiar with for the past two months. And, naturally, the argument can be made that players should understand that it's a business and that bringing in new guys to compete is part of the NFL business and not take it personally, but there are a lot of young guys on the roster who have not yet build up their confidences to the level they are with vets, so I'd be hesitant to introduce anything to the team that might jeopardize their state-of-mind, especially with the otherwise crazy offseason the Saints have already had. Now, if we were talking about bringing in a true impact player, as in someone like Freeney, I'd be all ears, but we are talking about a rotational player at best, so it has to be a "no" on bringing him in, IMO. I see your point. I don't think the "it's just business" attitude plays well with the "It's us against them" motivational aspect.

07-24-2012, 10:33 AM	#4
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,055	Every player know that each spot is earned that year.... Warm bodies are brought in every year to motivate performance... They know they have to earn their seat at the table. Remember the Beer Truck guy.. Micheal Lewis? Its common practice. Those who don't want to meet the terms of preform to get a spot can refuse the offer. No Body's that became somebody's. Micheal Lewis Kurt Warner John Randel Rod Smith Priest Holmes James Harrison Antonio Gates Wes Welker Jeff Saturday ALL un-drafted.. ALL unknowns.... that someone brought into camp to see what they could do.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

07-24-2012, 12:37 PM	#5
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,964	Originally Posted by x626xBlack Every player know that each spot is earned that year.... Warm bodies are brought in every year to motivate performance... They know they have to earn their seat at the table. Remember the Beer Truck guy.. Micheal Lewis? Its common practice. Those who don't want to meet the terms of preform to get a spot can refuse the offer. No Body's that became somebody's. Micheal Lewis Kurt Warner John Randel Rod Smith Priest Holmes James Harrison Antonio Gates Wes Welker Jeff Saturday ALL un-drafted.. ALL unknowns.... that someone brought into camp to see what they could do. While fine examples of guys who made it against the odds, those guys really aren't valid comparables to the situation Carter is in right now. Like I said before, I'm not against bringing in a big ticket impact player at this point in the offseason or some young guys looking to prove themselves worthy of a roster spot - but I'm against bringing in a vet who had a horrendous injury late last season and who, while being really effective, played in a 3-4 scheme next to Vince Wilfork. My issue is not with bringing in guys to take a look at, but it's with bringing in Carter and, IMO, wasting money on him. Naturally I could be dead wrong about him, but I just don't see him as a risk worthwhile taking.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

07-24-2012, 01:37 PM	#6
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,055	Originally Posted by FinSaint While fine examples of guys who made it against the odds, those guys really aren't valid comparables to the situation Carter is in right now. Like I said before, I'm not against bringing in a big ticket impact player at this point in the offseason or some young guys looking to prove themselves worthy of a roster spot - but I'm against bringing in a vet who had a horrendous injury late last season and who, while being really effective, played in a 3-4 scheme next to Vince Wilfork. My issue is not with bringing in guys to take a look at, but it's with bringing in Carter and, IMO, wasting money on him. Naturally I could be dead wrong about him, but I just don't see him as a risk worthwhile taking. Horrendous injury... Like ... ummm Drew Brees? How are you wasting money.... if he doesn't preform.. you CUT HIM.

07-24-2012, 02:00 PM	#7
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by x626xBlack Horrendous injury... Like ... ummm Drew Brees? How are you wasting money.... if he doesn't preform.. you CUT HIM. Your comparisons aren't making a lot of sense to me. The players you named above were not coming off injury, nor were they in their 30's. And Drew Brees' injury was completely different. It wasn't good, but it wasn't the same as blowing out a knee. The only reason teams hesitated on signing Drew is because they didn't know for sure if he'd heal enough to warrant the money he was asking for. But Drew was still young. Carter is not. The guy has been a bust for all but one year, which was last year. He was purely a system player. Aside from the 10 sacks he wasn't a consistent force. I'd rather a guy who plays every down and consistently pushes the pocket, then to have a guy who comes in on 3rd down. Martez Wilson is perfectly suited for that role right now, as is Gallette. Carter will not be effective for whomever he signs with, in my opinion.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

07-24-2012, 05:27 PM	#8
vpheughan 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,557	Blowing out your throwing shoulder isn't like blowing a knee? If you are a QB it is, just ask Greg Cook!
vpheughan 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,557

07-24-2012, 08:05 PM	#9
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by vpheughan Blowing out your throwing shoulder isn't like blowing a knee? If you are a QB it is, just ask Greg Cook! He tore his labrum. That kind of thing generally heals much better, not faster, but better than tearing an ACL or MCL. In your knees you're dealing with cartilage, and when that cartilage starts to wear down the pain becomes unbearable for these guys to run on. A shoulder injury can be tricky, but if it heals at all, it heals 100%. People were worried about whether Drew would be able to throw again, and frankly I don't know why. In baseball, pitchers tear labrums all the time, and they throw a lot more violently than quarterbacks, yet they come back.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

07-24-2012, 07:13 PM	#10
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,964	From 2001 up until 2010, Carter had averaged 6.6 sacks per season in that 10 season timespan, while only having had double digit seasons thrice (2002, 2007, 2009). And with the 10 sacks from last season that average only increases to 6.9 sacks, so I wouldn't see it as realistic to think that with the injury rehab he'd be a shoe-in for a double digit sacks season if the Saints were to bring him in. As a comparison, Will Smith has had an average of 7.7 sacks per season during his 8 seasons (2004-2011), while having had double digit seasons only twice in that timespan (2006, 2009). Also, Smith has about 5 tackles more overall per season than Carter. So, it would seem that while some have suggested Smith might be on his way out in New Orleans, his sack stats measure quite well against those of Carter's, who on the contrary some see as an improvement to the Saints' pass rushing game. And I might very well agree that he would be a nice addition as almost an equal to Smith's production, if it weren't for his injury late last season and the fact that he is 2 years older than Smith. BTW, there aren't any significant differences in the amount of starts or games played both guys have had during their careers, so the numbers are quite comparable, at least in this limited instance.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

LinkBacks (?) LinkBack to this Thread: https://blackandgold.com/saints/46535-saints-need-make-move-andre-carter-before-patriots.html
Posted By	For	Type	Date	Hits
Saints need to make a move on Andre Carter before the Patriots	This thread	Refback	07-23-2012 08:08 PM	9