Fred Thomas

GumboBC · 06-27-2004, 03:06 PM

I think Fred Thomas is vastly underrated and I think that's especially true when it comes to Saints' fans. There is no way you can look at stats and truly tell how good a CB is.

Just because a CB has a lot of interceptions that doesn't necessarily mean he's the best CB in the league or even on his team. It could mean that he's the guy QB's are throwing at more often. Or, it could mean that some CB just drops more balls that should have been interceptions.

It would be helpful if the NFL kept stats on how many balls were thrown at a particular CB and how many were completed and for how many yards. There are no such stats as far as I'm aware. But, there are individual stats on how many passes a CB deflected. Which tells me how often the CB was in position to break up a pass. Of course, these stats could be skewed if QB's are throwing the ball at those CB's more often.

But, I don't think CB's were picking on Fred Thomas last year. At least not to the degree where it's going to skew his stats. Some might disagree and I'm willing to listen to any arguments?

In any event, here are the NFL leaders in passes deflected:

Defensive Leaders: Passes Deflected -
1 Ty Law- 23
2 M. Coleman- 22
Fred Thomas- 22
4 Tyrone Poole- 21
5 T. Newman- 20
M. Trufant- 20
7 Tony Parrish- 18
Mike McKenzie- 18

Stat Source:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statis...on=2&year=2003

Some will make the case that Thomas doesn't have the size or skills needed to shut down the best receivers in the league. Maybe, maybe not. I make the case that Fred Thomas has done quite well against some of the best receivers in the league and he did it while our poor pass rush allowed the QB all the time in the world to let the receiver come open.

I've watched Fred play and he seems to always be in the right place at the right time to me? I never remember receivers making him look bad?

Thoughts???

[Edited on 27/6/2004 by GumboBC]

Bise · 06-27-2004, 05:07 PM

I think the main knock on Fred is he is kinda slow...

lumm0x · 06-27-2004, 05:49 PM

Fred Thomas is a scrappy corner with a ton of heart and desire to get the job done. He\'s physically below average, but he makes up for it with his effort. I love the guy, but he is not an upper echelon DB. He\'s a great nickle corner and the first guy that I\'d want a rookie to learn from.

SpartanIX · 06-27-2004, 05:56 PM

You can look at passes defensed all you want but a stat I would like to see is the number of passes that weren\'t made because of a certain cornerback. Meaning what cornerbacks in this league are quarterbacks, offensive coordinators afraid to throw at. To me a great corner is not made by how many interceptions, tackles, and passes defensed he has but how he changes the other teams gameplan. That is the type player the Saints need.

[Edited on 27/6/2004 by SpartanIX]

GumboBC · 06-27-2004, 06:13 PM

Posted by lummOx:
Fred Thomas is a scrappy corner with a ton of heart and desire to get the job done. He\'s physically below average, but he makes up for it with his effort. I love the guy, but he is not an upper echelon DB. He\'s a great nickle corner and the first guy that I\'d want a rookie to learn from.

lummOx --

I think you\'re suggesting that Fred Thomas has no business being a starter in the NFL and he\'s best suited being a 3rd CB.

While I agree that Fred isn\'t an upper echelon CB, I think he\'s much better than you give him credit for. While he doesn\'t have the ideal size you would want he still got speed and his play on the field indicates to me that he can get the job done.

All I\'ve heard anyone say is Fred isn\'t an elite CB and they have yet to show me where Fred\'s play on the field shows he\'s not a solid starting CB?

[Edited on 27/6/2004 by GumboBC]

JKool · 06-27-2004, 08:02 PM

Nice point Spartan. I think that is the key to understanding how good a player in the secondary is!

I think Fred is a starter (given the way he played the last two years). I just think he is a number two guy. He just can\'t match up physcially with some of the number one WRs, which at times makes him a liability in defensive play calling. Freddie is the man though!

SaintNik · 06-27-2004, 09:45 PM

Billy, I hope you are not implying below that a player is a better CB than someone else but his stats don\'t reflect because he DROPPED MORE INTERCEPTIONS!

Just because a CB has a lot of interceptions that doesn\'t necessarily mean he\'s the best CB in the league or even on his team. It could mean that he\'s the guy QB\'s are throwing at more often. Or, it could mean that some CB just drops more balls that should have been interceptions.
________________________________________________________________________

As far as my opinion on Fred Thomas goes I say forget physicals stats and look at what the guy does on the field. He is not intimidated by anybody. Two years ago he was covering receivers like white on rice with one good hand and the other arm in a cast. The broken arm is one reason he didn\'t have more interceptions that year along with missing some time initially after the injury. I am less concerned with our secondary than most as I believe that the front seven will improve their play and do a better job of stopping the run and putting more pressure on the quarterback this year.

GumboBC · 06-27-2004, 11:02 PM

Posted by SaintNik:
Billy, I hope you are not implying below that a player is a better CB than someone else but his stats don\'t reflect because he DROPPED MORE INTERCEPTIONS!

No, that\'s not what I mean at all. What I mean is that interceptions really don\'t give a good indication of how good a CB is in coverage. As far as not letting a receiver catch the intended pass.

Of course if you have two CB with the same coverage ability, I\'ll take the one that is the better at catching the ball.

buzwa · 06-29-2004, 11:06 PM

Personally i love Fred. He was the heart and soul of our defense and I think he is quite capable of being a solid starter on almost any team. Certainly his size and speed are knocks against him because it makes teams less afraid to throw at him.

Neither INTs nor passes deflected can truly show if a guy is shut-down calliber or not. Look at Charles Woodson. the most INT\'s he had was 5, in his rookie season. But also, look at his passes defended, 22-15-13-11-4(injury year)-8 over his 6 year career. Spartains argument makes sense that after teams learned what he could do, they stopped throwing at him. That is what makes him a shut-down corner. Unless someone syas he stopped defending passes because he sucks, which is a completely asinine statement
Again, I love Fred and am very glad we have him, but I\'d like to get him some help too.

lumm0x · 06-30-2004, 10:33 AM

Billy,
I do think I misrepresented my statement. Basically I was saying that he is one of my favorite players. I would have him on my team any day of the year. I would feel confident that whether I had him starting, filling in off the bench, or playing him in nickel packages, I would be confident he would give 110% and be effective. I do not consider him a elite player. If he is my number 1 DB on my team, I would be worried about everyone else except him. If he is my #2 or 3 skilled DB, I am very pleased. I would love for him to be our #3 DB, only because I would love to have 2 guys that are better than him, not because he is only skilled to be a #3.

06-27-2004, 03:06 PM	#1
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Fred Thomas I think Fred Thomas is vastly underrated and I think that's especially true when it comes to Saints' fans. There is no way you can look at stats and truly tell how good a CB is. Just because a CB has a lot of interceptions that doesn't necessarily mean he's the best CB in the league or even on his team. It could mean that he's the guy QB's are throwing at more often. Or, it could mean that some CB just drops more balls that should have been interceptions. It would be helpful if the NFL kept stats on how many balls were thrown at a particular CB and how many were completed and for how many yards. There are no such stats as far as I'm aware. But, there are individual stats on how many passes a CB deflected. Which tells me how often the CB was in position to break up a pass. Of course, these stats could be skewed if QB's are throwing the ball at those CB's more often. But, I don't think CB's were picking on Fred Thomas last year. At least not to the degree where it's going to skew his stats. Some might disagree and I'm willing to listen to any arguments? In any event, here are the NFL leaders in passes deflected: Defensive Leaders: Passes Deflected - 1 Ty Law- 23 2 M. Coleman- 22 Fred Thomas- 22 4 Tyrone Poole- 21 5 T. Newman- 20 M. Trufant- 20 7 Tony Parrish- 18 Mike McKenzie- 18 Stat Source: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statis...on=2&year=2003 Some will make the case that Thomas doesn't have the size or skills needed to shut down the best receivers in the league. Maybe, maybe not. I make the case that Fred Thomas has done quite well against some of the best receivers in the league and he did it while our poor pass rush allowed the QB all the time in the world to let the receiver come open. I've watched Fred play and he seems to always be in the right place at the right time to me? I never remember receivers making him look bad? Thoughts??? [Edited on 27/6/2004 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

06-27-2004, 05:07 PM	#2
Bise 100th Post Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 154	Fred Thomas I think the main knock on Fred is he is kinda slow...
Bise 100th Post Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 154

06-27-2004, 05:56 PM	#4
SpartanIX Rookie Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 8	Fred Thomas You can look at passes defensed all you want but a stat I would like to see is the number of passes that weren\'t made because of a certain cornerback. Meaning what cornerbacks in this league are quarterbacks, offensive coordinators afraid to throw at. To me a great corner is not made by how many interceptions, tackles, and passes defensed he has but how he changes the other teams gameplan. That is the type player the Saints need. [Edited on 27/6/2004 by SpartanIX]
SpartanIX Rookie Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 8

06-27-2004, 06:13 PM	#5
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Fred Thomas Posted by lummOx: Fred Thomas is a scrappy corner with a ton of heart and desire to get the job done. He\'s physically below average, but he makes up for it with his effort. I love the guy, but he is not an upper echelon DB. He\'s a great nickle corner and the first guy that I\'d want a rookie to learn from. lummOx -- I think you\'re suggesting that Fred Thomas has no business being a starter in the NFL and he\'s best suited being a 3rd CB. While I agree that Fred isn\'t an upper echelon CB, I think he\'s much better than you give him credit for. While he doesn\'t have the ideal size you would want he still got speed and his play on the field indicates to me that he can get the job done. All I\'ve heard anyone say is Fred isn\'t an elite CB and they have yet to show me where Fred\'s play on the field shows he\'s not a solid starting CB? [Edited on 27/6/2004 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

06-27-2004, 08:02 PM	#6
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Fred Thomas Nice point Spartan. I think that is the key to understanding how good a player in the secondary is! I think Fred is a starter (given the way he played the last two years). I just think he is a number two guy. He just can\'t match up physcially with some of the number one WRs, which at times makes him a liability in defensive play calling. Freddie is the man though!

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06-27-2004, 05:49 PM	#3
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Fred Thomas Fred Thomas is a scrappy corner with a ton of heart and desire to get the job done. He\'s physically below average, but he makes up for it with his effort. I love the guy, but he is not an upper echelon DB. He\'s a great nickle corner and the first guy that I\'d want a rookie to learn from.

06-27-2004, 09:45 PM	#7
SaintNik 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 312	Fred Thomas Billy, I hope you are not implying below that a player is a better CB than someone else but his stats don\'t reflect because he DROPPED MORE INTERCEPTIONS! Just because a CB has a lot of interceptions that doesn\'t necessarily mean he\'s the best CB in the league or even on his team. It could mean that he\'s the guy QB\'s are throwing at more often. Or, it could mean that some CB just drops more balls that should have been interceptions. ________________________________________________________________________ As far as my opinion on Fred Thomas goes I say forget physicals stats and look at what the guy does on the field. He is not intimidated by anybody. Two years ago he was covering receivers like white on rice with one good hand and the other arm in a cast. The broken arm is one reason he didn\'t have more interceptions that year along with missing some time initially after the injury. I am less concerned with our secondary than most as I believe that the front seven will improve their play and do a better job of stopping the run and putting more pressure on the quarterback this year.
SaintNik 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 312	Just Chillin Checking Out The B&G Forum While Waiting For My Ship To Come In http://img51.exs.cx/img51/4387/Santa_on_raft.jpg

06-27-2004, 11:02 PM	#8
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Fred Thomas Posted by SaintNik: Billy, I hope you are not implying below that a player is a better CB than someone else but his stats don\'t reflect because he DROPPED MORE INTERCEPTIONS! No, that\'s not what I mean at all. What I mean is that interceptions really don\'t give a good indication of how good a CB is in coverage. As far as not letting a receiver catch the intended pass. Of course if you have two CB with the same coverage ability, I\'ll take the one that is the better at catching the ball.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

06-29-2004, 11:06 PM	#9
buzwa Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 94	Fred Thomas Personally i love Fred. He was the heart and soul of our defense and I think he is quite capable of being a solid starter on almost any team. Certainly his size and speed are knocks against him because it makes teams less afraid to throw at him. Neither INTs nor passes deflected can truly show if a guy is shut-down calliber or not. Look at Charles Woodson. the most INT\'s he had was 5, in his rookie season. But also, look at his passes defended, 22-15-13-11-4(injury year)-8 over his 6 year career. Spartains argument makes sense that after teams learned what he could do, they stopped throwing at him. That is what makes him a shut-down corner. Unless someone syas he stopped defending passes because he sucks, which is a completely asinine statement Again, I love Fred and am very glad we have him, but I\'d like to get him some help too.
buzwa Registered Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 94	\"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.\"

06-30-2004, 10:33 AM	#10
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Fred Thomas Billy, I do think I misrepresented my statement. Basically I was saying that he is one of my favorite players. I would have him on my team any day of the year. I would feel confident that whether I had him starting, filling in off the bench, or playing him in nickel packages, I would be confident he would give 110% and be effective. I do not consider him a elite player. If he is my number 1 DB on my team, I would be worried about everyone else except him. If he is my #2 or 3 skilled DB, I am very pleased. I would love for him to be our #3 DB, only because I would love to have 2 guys that are better than him, not because he is only skilled to be a #3.