Rugby Saint II

We obviously need to make some changes to upgrade our roster. Who do you think we need to cut or trade so that we can get the talent we need? And why?

Shanle. We all know why.
Vilma. He's old and doesn't tackle well anymore. He's not a play maker.
Ellis. He's never been good. Another first round bust.
Jenkins. He can't tackle and takes pitiful angles.
Will Smith. Once again, we all know why.
Strief. At best he's a back up.
Ingram. He's never going to fit this system and he has trade value.
Bushrod. He is only good when he's getting down field to block.

I am on the fence with numerous other players like de la Puenta, Harper, P Rob. and Hawthorne.
Also, who would you like to bring in to replace them?

FinSaint

Well, Shanle, Ellis, and Bushrod are all hopefully gone after the season ends, so unless Loomis has a brain-fart - we shouldn't worry about those guys.

Jenkins and Harper have been really frustrating whole season long, and even in this last game they both whiffed on numerous tackles. The reality is that Harper probably stays unless they find a good trading partner, because he is still owed guaranteed money on his contract, and it would be hard to find a better SS with the money they'd save by cutting him. Jenkins might improve for next season, but I highly doubt that. He'd be someone they might even cut if no one wants to make a trade for him, since his contract is fairly cheap. In any case, it would be nice to see more athleticism from the safety corps, but I don't know if there are any real impact players for those spots in the coming FA pool or the draft?!

They desperately need better offensive tackles on both sides, and I'm still hopeful that Marcel Jones will rehab well from his injury and develop into a starter quality RT - meaning better quality than Strief is.

I'd definitely keep Hawthorne, because we haven't yet seen how good of a player he can be - how he was in Seattle. With a full offseason without any injuries and a second year in Spags' system, he'll be an impact player on the LB corps. Vilma is a much harder case, because I guess it all depends on what the Bountygate fallout will eventually be when they finally get it all sorted out. He might well be suspended for the first half of next season if the rest of the suspension is upheld, so in that situation it would probably make more sense to cut him and be done with it. But he could still be a good player for the Saints if he continues to rehab his knees and if he comes back stronger next season. He undoubtedly still has some great leadership qualities and he can read and dissect plays with the best of them - if only he could get his speed and confidence back, he'd make more of those tackles he has been missing.

Smith should be cut if it's at all financially feasible, but a trade would naturally be a much better solution if they could only find someone who was interested in him.

The key positions of improvement for next season are definitely 1) the defensive front 4, because they have to find better pass rushers from the edge and better tackles to create some interior pressure. 2) the offensive line, and by this I basically mean the tackle positions. 3) the defensive backfield, and while the CB situation isn't really that bad if the guys would only find a way to stay healthy, the safety pair they have at the moment just isn't working.

"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

jeanpierre

Defense?? Much will depend if Spagnuolo stays or geauxs...

Jenkins will be moved to RCB/NB with less responsibilities allowing his athleticism to be maximized; Corey White should be given an opportunity as a Saftey where he has the size to make an impact; Greer, Robinson, Patrick will be kept for continuity though I think injury and age has exposed Greer and we could look for a shutdown corner in the coming draft; Bunckley has proven a solid nose tackle and Akiem Hicks has showed he can contribute as much as the current starters; the Linebackers are still in need of upgrade considering Vilma's age, and lack of continuity from this unity due to injuries; Martez should be given an opportunity at RDE in Spag's system to see if either Martez has a Saints future or if it is time to consider taking advantage of his talents and moving to a 3-4 (I'd argue that Wilson should have started three games ago to see if Smith still had any left in the tank)...the Saints will begin to clear the cap for the next year by cutting ties with Harper, Shanle, Smith, Ellis...

Offense?

Almost everyone agreed before the season that we could improve at both OT positions - after what has taking place so far this season, now a major committment will have to be made considering the investment in QB and that we have four dynamic RB and are unable to have success consitently from them because of inconsistent play from the Tackles; we still are looking for a true WR complement on the outside to Colston though we've yet to see if Toon can be that complement - but the WR corps is trending up, yet again; We Will Trade a RB and with the recent aborted attempts to run one of the best screen offenses in the league through Ivory, Ingram, I think it was exposed some may be thinking of trading PT as the oldest, most expensive; but, most important to the future of this offense now is Jimmy Graham's contract extension...

The ST will remain though Hartley may receive a msg when 3-4 FA Kickers are in camp next season...

It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

vpheughan

Remember what happened in Indy. They paid Manning a ton of money and couldn't afford a supporting cast. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck........

BelieveDat

Jeanpiere is right. Jenkins needs to go back to corner. He's aware of where the ball is at when it's in the air which is what we need from our corners the most. He's made lots of good tackling plays that helped our defense make great stops and I feel like there would be more if he were on the outside. Also Ingram just needs another year and an improved offensive line that can open holes more often than not to power through.

FinSaint

What?!

Jenkins has probably been missing the most tackles in the secondary, he seems to be in the right position - or at least close to it - on most occasions, but he has been whiffing on tackles for couple of seasons now and it has hurt especially on the run defense this season.

He might work as the nickle, but we must remember that he was converted into a safety because he didn't have the speed to be a shut down corner. Even though that Vincent Jackson catch up was impressive, I think it spoke more about Jackson's lack of speed at the time than about Jenkins' great speed.

I mean, I'll give you that Jenkins has made some key tackles in some situations which were maybe hyperbolized by their nature - those goal line stances come to mind - but as a whole he hasn't been making enough impact plays to warrant a label of a difference maker in the defensive backfield. It's sad really, because before last season I really thought that Jenkins would develop into a top tier safety, but that was not to be.

"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

TheEnigma

Defense I would say:

Scott Shanle- 100% needs to go.
Sedrick Ellis- Ellis is another one we need to get rid of. He has not done anything since we drafted him. Total bust
Roman Harper- Its time we move one from him. We could get someone much better
Vilma- Getting old, needs to go
Malcolm Jenkins- Hits really hard, but is just too inconsistent. Probably needs to go or maybe try him back at corner
Patrick Robinson- Do I need to say anything?

Offense

Devery Henderson- Just like Jenkins, he is too inconsistent
Mark Ingram- I am not sure about him yet. I'm for giving him alittle more time, but he has not been worth that #1 pick we used on him so far.
Zach Strief- Just not good

dizzle88

Shanle - has to be cut, the coaches even know he's a liability and have kept him inactive for the last 4 weeks

Will smith - still makes a couple plays here and there but is getting on and has lost a lot of speed, if we could get someone that's a double of cam Jordan playing opposite him I'd love it, cam is a very good player

Sed Ellis - second coming of warren sapp type player hey? Yeah right

Devery Henderson - love devery for what he's done for us, but who is catching the deep passes now? Joe Morgan is, every time the ball goes deep it's for joe Morgan and he's making plays!

Strief and Bushrod - these two get a section by themselves because they operate as turnstiles on gameday

Jenkins hasn't become the safety I thought he would, and you watch his highlight tape from Ohio state, it's two totally different players, the one from Ohio state was a beast in coverage and layed out anyone who caught the ball, not like that now

I personally like roman Harper and think people forget all the plays he's made for us over the years, he not fantastic in coverage obviously but every year he has got better and he should stay in my opinion

Vilma - old and done

Your bonehead creator picked a fine chapter to omit from your memory bank....let me ask you, does a machine like yourself ever experience fear? - Vegeta, DBZ

Danno

All good stuff guys, mostly. Here's my humble take, assuming we keep Spags...

Jenkins - Now that we run mostly zone, he's probably a better fit at CB than he was in Gregg Williams system. I think he a keeper as a versatile CB/FS.

Harper - Was worried he'd be miscast in Spags system which is best suited for Left-Right safeties rather than Strong and Free. He's played better than I thought he would, especially in our big nickle where he plays the LB/SS role. But at that salary? I'd keep him if he restructures or perhaps approach him about a possible trade/restructure.

Strief - I'd keep him as a solid back-up, but definitely keep bringing in competition for his spot.

Bushrod - A servicable LT. Not great but I've seen much much worse in this league. He's also way over-paid so I think we keep him if he resigns at a more cap friendly number and like Strief, keep bringing in players to challenge him.

Ellis - Below average results, above average salary. I think he's a goner.

Shanle - Would be a good back-up at both OLB spots and should be paid accordingly, which is a notch above vet minimum.

Vilma - Father time has reduced him to merely an average LB. His transition to the outside hasn't gone nearly as well as I'd hoped. I think he's a goner.

Smith - Still our best RDE, but I think we can do better. Its time for some Mickey Magic or he's a goner.

Ivory/Ingram/PT - PT is the most expensive, but I think he's worth it. Ingram and Ivory are relatively cheap and I say keep them both and lets see what happens in 2013 under Paytons coaching. I'd certainly listen to trade offers for any of them, but I wouldn't give either away cheap.

Robinson - He's become our best CB. He's still inconsistent but he's a definite keeper.

Henderson - Looks like he's slowed down a bit, and his deep speed is the only reason he's still in this league. I think he's fairly affordable so I say he's a keeper for at least 1 more year. He may not make the team next year if Morgan and Toon look great in preseason camp.

MatthewT

While this is a very good post, the truth is instead of who needs to be cut or traded, it will be more like which players will survive the salary cap purge that is about to happen. Stay tuned...