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Problems with Defensive Tackles

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by burningmetal Obviously we need better players, but have you not noticed how hard it is to run against a 3-4? There seems to be something about having 4 linebackers running upfield with a head of steam that ...

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Old 01-03-2013, 08:16 AM   #1
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
Obviously we need better players, but have you not noticed how hard it is to run against a 3-4? There seems to be something about having 4 linebackers running upfield with a head of steam that makes it hard for O-linemen to block. All that Tampa 2 stuff is more of a coverage scheme. I don't like coverage scheming at all. I think man to man, regardless of personnel, is your best chance in coverage. Defenses today are always confused about who's got who and when to switch off. It worked for a while, but offenses have evolved and rendered it useless.

In my opinion, defenses must use man to man and be able to win up front. If you don't jam receivers, your lineman don't have any time to get to the QB, and if you don't get pressure, you can only cover for so long. Offense is about as good as it will ever be right now. It's far too complicated to try to outsmart them on defense. With that in mind, I have noticed that 3-4 alignments have been very successful in shutting down the run and creating pressure.

DC's don't change based on personnel. They all have a philosophy, and they stick to it. The good one's always have success, no matter where they are. I'm just a llittle too young to remember the dome patrol, so all I have ever seen is 4-3 here. It hasn't been very successful.

If you have great players, then sure, you can make any scheme work. But what happens when you don't have great players? You have to be creative. I'm tired of seeing the same defense every year.
As a former LT Personally I love playing against a 3-4 because its so easy to run against... ...but that migh be just my personal experience.

But football and schemes are really simple, the guy who holds the pen last wins. Atleast when you talk and compare a scheme against another, every offense or defence has got flaws and holes you can attack.

When you don't have great players you have to be fundamentally sound to begin with. If you can run, throw, catch, tackle & block really well you will cover a whol lot of physical flaws. Then you have to be creative in the scheme your players are suited for.

W.T. Sherman is my favorite General. After all he did order Atlanta to be burned to the ground.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:30 AM   #2
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
As a former LT Personally I love playing against a 3-4 because its so easy to run against... ...but that migh be just my personal experience.

But football and schemes are really simple, the guy who holds the pen last wins. Atleast when you talk and compare a scheme against another, every offense or defence has got flaws and holes you can attack.

When you don't have great players you have to be fundamentally sound to begin with. If you can run, throw, catch, tackle & block really well you will cover a whol lot of physical flaws. Then you have to be creative in the scheme your players are suited for.
I understand the basics of football. You're not telling me anything I don't know, but I appreciate it all the same.

What I'm saying is that having that extra linebacker is very hard to handle, because they have more speed. If we had Joe Johnson, La'Roi Glover, Norman Hand and Darren Howard again, that would be great. But we don't, so I'd like to see a change in philosophy and see how we could do in a 3-4. I'm not sure who you went up against as a LT, but based on what I've seen in the NFL, it doesn't look so easy. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I'm saying I'm sick of 15 years of football that have produced maybe two good defenses, all with the same basic scheme. There have been variations, of course, but not much.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:55 AM   #3
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Well it's all based on your talent. If you look at the top 10 defenses stat wise this year you have 5 teams that run 3-4 and 5 teams that run 4-3.
We don't have 3 good LB's how will we come up with 4?
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:01 AM   #4
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by Budsdrinker View Post
Well it's all based on your talent. If you look at the top 10 defenses stat wise this year you have 5 teams that run 3-4 and 5 teams that run 4-3.
We don't have 3 good LB's how will we come up with 4?
Again, it's not about how good the players are. Everyone wants good players, everyone needs good players. But how do you get the most out of whatever you have? We've tried 4-3 for a million years in a row.

And of the top 10 defenses, how many 3-4's were in the top 5? Top 10 isn't dominant. When I say the best, I mean the best.

We have a couple pretty decent linebackers in Lofton and Hawthorne, and I think Martez Wilson would do well as one of those hybrid DE/OLB's that you see in a 3-4. How many good defensive linemen do we have?

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:36 AM   #5
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
Again, it's not about how good the players are. Everyone wants good players, everyone needs good players. But how do you get the most out of whatever you have? We've tried 4-3 for a million years in a row.

And of the top 10 defenses, how many 3-4's were in the top 5? Top 10 isn't dominant. When I say the best, I mean the best.

We have a couple pretty decent linebackers in Lofton and Hawthorne, and I think Martez Wilson would do well as one of those hybrid DE/OLB's that you see in a 3-4. How many good defensive linemen do we have?
Actually only two 3-4 defenses were in the top 5. Pittsburg and 49ers.
Denver, Seattle and Bears run 4-3.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:10 AM   #6
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by Budsdrinker View Post
Actually only two 3-4 defenses were in the top 5. Pittsburg and 49ers.
Denver, Seattle and Bears run 4-3.

And Denver was in their first year of converting from a 3-4 to a 4-3, so I guess that would support the argument that you can successfully change schemes from one year to another and not lose a step in the process?!
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:42 AM   #7
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by Budsdrinker View Post
Actually only two 3-4 defenses were in the top 5. Pittsburg and 49ers.
Denver, Seattle and Bears run 4-3.
Denver has superstars on their defense. And very few teams ever run the 3-4. Why is it that those who do, are so highly ranked? I've well said that you can be successful with great players under any system, but I'm more impressed with coordinators who can make any group of players at least decent. With four linebackers, you can cover more people over the middle, and you can move them up when necessary. There isn't much size difference between an outside linebacker and a defensive end.

You seem to believe that defensive rankings from one season mean that my point means nothing, when the fact is that almost no one runs anything but a 4-3 anymore. And it is my opinion that this should change, unless we come up with some great players real soon.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:24 PM   #8
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
Denver has superstars on their defense. And very few teams ever run the 3-4. Why is it that those who do, are so highly ranked? I've well said that you can be successful with great players under any system, but I'm more impressed with coordinators who can make any group of players at least decent. With four linebackers, you can cover more people over the middle, and you can move them up when necessary. There isn't much size difference between an outside linebacker and a defensive end.

You seem to believe that defensive rankings from one season mean that my point means nothing, when the fact is that almost no one runs anything but a 4-3 anymore. And it is my opinion that this should change, unless we come up with some great players real soon.
Green Bay isn't highly ranked, the cowgirls aren't highly ranked and they run 3-4 scheme. Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight here but if our current defensive players can't learn Spag's zone scheme, they damn sure can't learn 3-4 schemes which employ some of the same zone schemes. First off, who are the 4 LB's?
Vilma couldn't play the 3-4 for the Jets that's how we got him. Lofton is a MLB also. Your LB's have to be able to rush the passer and also play coverage. The idea of the 3-4 is that you can change up the LB that blitzs so they have to be fast and strong. I don't think we have any LB's that fit that description. We also don't have a NT to take a double team. What would be our line up? I just don't think we have the personnel to switch to a 3-4.

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Old 01-03-2013, 09:21 AM   #9
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Originally Posted by TreyThomas View Post
So after a little research into this, it seems we just have not had much luck with our defensive tackles producing for us. This is not from lack of bringing in help at the position, correct? Anyone remember bringing in Aubrayo Franklin and Shawn Rogers? Drafting Ellis? Bringing in Bunkley this past free agency?

I know for a fact that when we brought Bunkley and Franklin here, they were the each graded out as the best run stuffing defensive tackle for their respective years.

Well, take a guess who grades out as the best this year??? One year after we have released him, Aubrayo Franklin tops the list once again. Twice in three years. Coincidence??? It just seems like all defensive tackles are brought to failure here.

But the one lone bright spot at the position that we have had this year, Akiem Hicks, grades out at the #12 run stopping defensive tackle. He has not seen nearly enough playing time, in my opinion. Hopefully he can keep this up for years to come, but the odds are not in his favor. Thoughts?
Nice post. What site do you find these grades on?
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:32 PM   #10
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Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles

Depends... not every team has a Von Miller and Elvis Dumervil.
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