Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

So after a little research into this, it seems we just have not had much luck with our defensive tackles producing for us. This is not from lack of bringing in help at the position, correct? Anyone remember bringing in Aubrayo Franklin and Shawn Rogers? Drafting Ellis? Bringing in Bunkley this past free agency?

I know for a fact that when we brought Bunkley and Franklin here, they were the each graded out as the best run stuffing defensive tackle for their respective years.

Well, take a guess who grades out as the best this year??? One year after we have released him, Aubrayo Franklin tops the list once again. Twice in three years. Coincidence??? It just seems like all defensive tackles are brought to failure here.

But the one lone bright spot at the position that we have had this year, Akiem Hicks, grades out at the #12 run stopping defensive tackle. He has not seen nearly enough playing time, in my opinion. Hopefully he can keep this up for years to come, but the odds are not in his favor. Thoughts?

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Aubrayo franklin was bound to fail here because be was graded as the best run stopping DT in San Fran's defense, a 3-4 defense

Greg Williams D was a 4-3, it shouldn't really make a difference but i think it did

Akiem hicks has a bright future with us

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

I'll preface this by saying I say this in defense of Franklin, and Bunkley.I'll throw out a few names and you tell me if we have any body who resembles that person on our defense. A good DT does big things on his own, but also knows if he can't there are great guys who can help as well. .

Here goes: Elvis Dumervil, Von Miller, Patrick Willis, Aldon Smith......


Great DTs, also have good to if not great help!!!!

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Yep you have to have at least 2 good players up front. Take a look at Aldon Smith's stats since Justin Smith has been out. He hasn't had a sack. You need to have 2 players that really command a double team because you know offenses can't double team both of them so they gamble on which one gets the double which allows the other player the free rush. Since Justin Smith has been out offenses have been doubling Aldon and he can't get it done. I think with Hicks and Johnson next year we might have that.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

It just seems like all defensive tackles are brought to failure here.

Welcome to defensive Hell!!!:red:

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

One of these days! I think we already have one piece of the puzzle in Hicks, just need the other one... Johnson perhaps?

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Just curious, which rankings are you referring to?

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Hicks will become a Dogggg !!!! But we need another guy that can stuff up the middle n give our linebackers a chance to make a play.. ! ! !

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/

And also, I get what everyone is saying about having help around the player to make them better. That's obvious. But Franklin is now on the Chargers and I can't even name one solid player on that defense outside of Shaun Phillips, and many of you are now asking yourselves, who is that?

So while I get that more talent around the individual makes them play better, in some cases like with Franklin this year, that doesn't seem to make a difference. Maybe I'm just over-thinking this whole thing, but it just makes me wonder why our defensive line is always so terrible.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

I think that with Franklin it was a case of playing out of position, since his natural position is a 3-4 NT and not a 4-3 DT. A 3-4 NT - which is what Bunkley was also in Denver - is a position that almost solely concentrates on anchoring the defensive front and disrupting the off-center/guard running plays. Therefore, it doesn't surprise me at all that Franklin is doing much better now that he is once again playing in his natural position, a position which is primed to produce good numbers against the run.

In my opinion the three biggest problems the Saints had this past season and have had for some years now on their defensive front are Sedrick Ellis, Bill Johnson, and the scouting/drafting department.

I think that they should make changes in each of those three problem areas. Ellis will be gone, which is already an improvement. But I do think that they should really think about replacing Johnson with another D-line coach, because even though he is considered by his peers to be one of the better D-line coaches in the league - he hasn't been able to get these guys to play at an elevated level. Let Spags choose who he wants to be the D-line coach, and we could see an instant improvement in the way the front 4 guys play next season, even without any significant personnel changes. And they should look at the way they evaluate new talent and who they pick in drafts. Hicks was a no-brainer, even thought I still think they could've gotten him a round or two later, but lets hope that picking him was a sign of a future trend of picking actual talent who fit the system the team has, and not just picking guys based on their schools and/or their collegiate careers without any regard as to whether they can actually be successful in the environment the Saints can offer them.

Bunkley, Hicks and Johnson should stay and the FO should add one more DT in to that rotation - maybe a hybrid DT/DE guy, since the drafts nowadays seem to be full of those type of tweeners. This along with better edge rushing and better D-line coaching should be a recipe for better front 4 pass rush and run defense.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

I told someone on here in the off season that Franklin was put out of position. I don't remember who it was, but he thought I was an idiot as I recall. Anyway, this pretty much sums it up. We seem to be cursed with defensive coaching staffs that either can't identify talent, can't improve what talent they do have, or don't know how to put guys in the right position. You have to bring in guys who fit your system or be willing to adjust the system.

If you look at all of the best defenses over the years, I think you'll see that a lot, if not most of them, are 3-4's. If Spagnuolo doesn't turn this defense around next year, maybe it's time to bring in someone who runs that scheme.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

A good defence isn't a question of scheme. A 4-3 is just as good as a 3-4 or a 46. What you need is to put the right group of players together. We had a great 3-4 with the Dome Patrol, the Bears was fierce with their 46 and the Buccaneers had a great D when they won the SB playing theri Tampa 2 defence.

My point is, all those defences are different but can still get the job done.

About or DT, I have been an Ellis supporter for a long tie but I think we have reached the end of the road for him. He seems to have eached his ceiling and that wasn't very high. I'd kick th tires on Glen Dorsey in FA but aside from that I'd like us to draft another guy like Hicks in th 3-4th round.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

So what do you want to do with our Round 1 pick? Just curious...

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

DE and OLB are major needs, plenty of them in first round

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Obviously we need better players, but have you not noticed how hard it is to run against a 3-4? There seems to be something about having 4 linebackers running upfield with a head of steam that makes it hard for O-linemen to block. All that Tampa 2 stuff is more of a coverage scheme. I don't like coverage scheming at all. I think man to man, regardless of personnel, is your best chance in coverage. Defenses today are always confused about who's got who and when to switch off. It worked for a while, but offenses have evolved and rendered it useless.

In my opinion, defenses must use man to man and be able to win up front. If you don't jam receivers, your lineman don't have any time to get to the QB, and if you don't get pressure, you can only cover for so long. Offense is about as good as it will ever be right now. It's far too complicated to try to outsmart them on defense. With that in mind, I have noticed that 3-4 alignments have been very successful in shutting down the run and creating pressure.

DC's don't change based on personnel. They all have a philosophy, and they stick to it. The good one's always have success, no matter where they are. I'm just a llittle too young to remember the dome patrol, so all I have ever seen is 4-3 here. It hasn't been very successful.

If you have great players, then sure, you can make any scheme work. But what happens when you don't have great players? You have to be creative. I'm tired of seeing the same defense every year.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

I would rather se us picking an OT, DE or S early. I just thing its easier to find an underrated DT that can play early than an RT or a DE that will make an impact in his first year.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

As a former LT Personally I love playing against a 3-4 because its so easy to run against... ...but that migh be just my personal experience.

But football and schemes are really simple, the guy who holds the pen last wins. Atleast when you talk and compare a scheme against another, every offense or defence has got flaws and holes you can attack.

When you don't have great players you have to be fundamentally sound to begin with. If you can run, throw, catch, tackle & block really well you will cover a whol lot of physical flaws. Then you have to be creative in the scheme your players are suited for.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

I understand the basics of football. You're not telling me anything I don't know, but I appreciate it all the same.

What I'm saying is that having that extra linebacker is very hard to handle, because they have more speed. If we had Joe Johnson, La'Roi Glover, Norman Hand and Darren Howard again, that would be great. But we don't, so I'd like to see a change in philosophy and see how we could do in a 3-4. I'm not sure who you went up against as a LT, but based on what I've seen in the NFL, it doesn't look so easy. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I'm saying I'm sick of 15 years of football that have produced maybe two good defenses, all with the same basic scheme. There have been variations, of course, but not much.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Well it's all based on your talent. If you look at the top 10 defenses stat wise this year you have 5 teams that run 3-4 and 5 teams that run 4-3.
We don't have 3 good LB's how will we come up with 4?

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Again, it's not about how good the players are. Everyone wants good players, everyone needs good players. But how do you get the most out of whatever you have? We've tried 4-3 for a million years in a row.

And of the top 10 defenses, how many 3-4's were in the top 5? Top 10 isn't dominant. When I say the best, I mean the best.

We have a couple pretty decent linebackers in Lofton and Hawthorne, and I think Martez Wilson would do well as one of those hybrid DE/OLB's that you see in a 3-4. How many good defensive linemen do we have?

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Nice post. What site do you find these grades on?

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

this one...

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Actually only two 3-4 defenses were in the top 5. Pittsburg and 49ers.
Denver, Seattle and Bears run 4-3.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

And Denver was in their first year of converting from a 3-4 to a 4-3, so I guess that would support the argument that you can successfully change schemes from one year to another and not lose a step in the process?!

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Depends... not every team has a Von Miller and Elvis Dumervil.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Great post. Agree with virtually all of it.

There were only 2 starters that graded in the top 100 in the league at their position, Bunkley (28th DT) and Jordan (66th DE).

Hicks (29th DT) and Johnson (42ndDT), Casillas (59th OLB), Quddus (42nd S), Galette (19th DE), Wilson (33rd DE) graded out OK as reserves though.

Every other starter was worse than the 100th ranked player at their position.

Lofton (104th MLB),
Vilma (100th OLB),
Ellis (118th DT),
Hawthorne (102nd OLB),
Greer (118th CB),
Robinson (193rd CB),
Harper (167th S),
Jenkins (168th S)

I put that directly on Spags.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

wow. the totality of the suckitude is spendiferatious.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Elementary my dear Watson...

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

I think what we need is new scouts on the defensive side.

Scouts who can draft good players, it just aint happening here, our best defensive guys were bought in through FA.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

We certainly hit on more offense than defense in the draft. Our defensive players aren't that bad, but none are elite, or even great.

We have a roster full of average and a few below average, but no difference makers. Jordan and Hicks look like they may turn out to be better than average though.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

I'd be willing to add Corey White in that short list as well... Late in the season he started looking rather decent and then he was injured...

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

So the question then becomes why is it that the front office seems to be able to find hungry above average talent on the offensive side of the ball, but not so much on the defensive side? What kind of goggles are they wearing?

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

It might be that we've already seen a change for the better in this regard, but it'll definitely take at least this coming draft to see if the change is permanent or at least not just a fluke.

I don't really know how big of an input GW had in who the Saints picked and what the scouts were told to look out for in targeted players, but I remember reading that Spags brought some scouts with him over to the Saints, so maybe we'll see better defensive picks with him evaluating the potential players along with the slightly altered scouting department?!


In any case, I really think they need to look at Bill Johnson as somebody to replace with another guy. I actually voiced my opinion about this last offseason when Minnesota let go Karl Dunbar - who then went to the Jets - and thought that he should've been hired by the Saints to replace Johnson. I think that he could've been a good fit because players (Jared Allen, Pat and Kevin Williams) that have played under him have stated that Dunbar's strength as a D-line coach was in teaching effective pass rushing techniques, and that is definitely something that the Saints' front 4 could've used this past season.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

I agree with this. I would have never thought Lofton would be ranked 104th. I do know that Harper and Jenkins graded out as the two absolute worst safeties in the league. In no way am I saying this is all their fault and they are the problem, but numbers are hard to argue with, and that is disheartening.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

The fact that basically this same group of players averaged middle of the pack in 3 years under Gregg Williams tells me it's not the players. No one can tell me there are 103 MLB's in this league better than Curtis Lofton. And there aren't 100 OLB's better than Vilma. There are NOT 117 CB's better than Jabari Greer.

Obviously we cold use a few impact players along the front seven, but this roster isn't that damn bad.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Pretty much says it all. Ellis' position, on the other hand, is believable. :bang:

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Well eventually every team sees someone decent on the D-line, for us it was Will Smith, but with Will Smith possibly declining, if anyone takes over for him, its Cam Jordan. Basically back at square one on that.

But some of the most noted players we have had on defense was FA picks, back to 06 I think of:

Greer
Fujita (now with Browns)
Lofton
Vilma
Sharper (retired)
Randall Gay (where is he now? He never started after 09 I think)

The only ones worth wild we drafted since Sean Payton era started:

Tracy Porter (now with Broncos)

Is there really anyone else worth mentioning since 2006? I know some will say Roman Harper or Malcolm Jenkins, but they are proving to be more bust than success in the long run.

Perhaps if Cam Jordan turns that corner into the same production as Will Smith, then he can be added to the list.


As you see Spags system come into play, you then understand Gregg Williams system a little more, as you understand Gregg Williams system and what he did, you then realize our defensive players is just not worth wild to begin with, least not 80% of them, since they cant pick up a new scheme that drastically improves the defense.

Its not on Spags, its on our players, Spags set out the plan, they never executed it.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Denver has superstars on their defense. And very few teams ever run the 3-4. Why is it that those who do, are so highly ranked? I've well said that you can be successful with great players under any system, but I'm more impressed with coordinators who can make any group of players at least decent. With four linebackers, you can cover more people over the middle, and you can move them up when necessary. There isn't much size difference between an outside linebacker and a defensive end.

You seem to believe that defensive rankings from one season mean that my point means nothing, when the fact is that almost no one runs anything but a 4-3 anymore. And it is my opinion that this should change, unless we come up with some great players real soon.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

Green Bay isn't highly ranked, the cowgirls aren't highly ranked and they run 3-4 scheme. Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight here but if our current defensive players can't learn Spag's zone scheme, they damn sure can't learn 3-4 schemes which employ some of the same zone schemes. First off, who are the 4 LB's?
Vilma couldn't play the 3-4 for the Jets that's how we got him. Lofton is a MLB also. Your LB's have to be able to rush the passer and also play coverage. The idea of the 3-4 is that you can change up the LB that blitzs so they have to be fast and strong. I don't think we have any LB's that fit that description. We also don't have a NT to take a double team. What would be our line up? I just don't think we have the personnel to switch to a 3-4.

Re: Problems with Defensive Tackles
 

I'm not a supporter of the 3-4, but Bunkley was highly successful as a NT in a 3-4 in Denver and I think that Wilson, Chamberlain and Casillas could all play the 3-4 OLB position along with - potentially - Hawthorne and Herring. I'm not saying they'd be Marcus Wares, but they could manage to play the position.

Just being a devil's advocate. ;-)