Sean Payton sees a role for Jonathan Vilma in new New Orleans Saints 3-4 defense

02-15-2013, 08:55 AM

From an earlier post, in case you missed it.

One ILB, the MIKE will take on the 2 gaps on the strongside of the line, but both the SAM and the WILL have nearly identical responsibilities as the WILL and SAM in a traditional 4-3.

Vilma at the WILL in Rob's 3-4 is no different than what Vilma played under Spags 4-3, and Gregg Williams, who ran a lot of 3-4 when he was here.

Mangini's 3-4 and Rob's 3-4 are apples and oranges.

Here's a decent diagram of how Vilma (W) will be used...

Notice the RDE is over the guard. In Mangini's 3-4 the RDE was over the Tackle, leaving both ILB's to take on OG's

FinSaint · 02-15-2013, 09:52 AM

In the diagram above, one would then presume that the "Jack" or WOLB would have to be pretty good against the run on top of his pass rushing abilities, since he would be left pretty much alone against weakside run plays. And if the weakside OT is able to engage the WOLB, then the WILB would have to be able to tackle or contain the ball carrier. In that scenario I would think Vilma wouldn't be at his best, since he was whiffing on open field tackles on ball carriers on too many plays last season. Although, I guess Lofton/Hawthorne could be able to cover for him from the SILB position if they reacted quickly enough.

BTW, didn't Crennel and Belichick place the NT at the 0 stance, as in square on top of the center, because I seem to remember them doing that, and even still Wilfork lines up as a 0 tech if I'm not mistaken?

Danno · 02-15-2013, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

In the diagram above, one would then presume that the "Jack" or WOLB would have to be pretty good against the run on top of his pass rushing abilities, since he would be left pretty much alone against weakside run plays. And if the weakside OT is able to engage the WOLB, then the WILB would have to be able to tackle or contain the ball carrier. In that scenario I would think Vilma wouldn't be at his best, since he was whiffing on open field tackles on ball carriers on too many plays last season. Although, I guess Lofton/Hawthorne could be able to cover for him from the SILB position if they reacted quickly enough.

BTW, didn't Crennel and Belichick place the NT at the 0 stance, as in square on top of the center, because I seem to remember them doing that, and even still Wilfork lines up as a 0 tech if I'm not mistaken?

Yes, Crennel and Belichick did run the classic 2-gap 3-4, which is a bad fit for Vilma.

I think the WILB in this scheme is good for Vilma. He still has enough speed to cover the outside, especially since he'll be shifted toward that side.

That RDE is the key against the weakside run. Thats the DE that has to be able to play the run and pass equally well. I think the RDE is the spot for Jordan right now, although Hicks might be the man eventually.

The entire discussion about Vilma simply boils down to not letting the OG's have a free shot at him.

Also, thats why many think Martez Wilson would be ideal as one of the ILB's if we ran a 2-gap 3-4. He definitely has the size and speed to give OG's fits. Think Vaughn Johnson, but with 4.4 speed.

K Major · 02-15-2013, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Yes, Crennel and Belichick did run the classic 2-gap 3-4, which is a bad fit for Vilma.

I think the WILB in this scheme is good for Vilma. He still has enough speed to cover the outside, especially since he'll be shifted toward that side.

That RDE is the key against the weakside run. Thats the DE that has to be able to play the run and pass equally well. I think the RDE is the spot for Jordan right now, although Hicks might be the man eventually.

The entire discussion about Vilma simply boils down to not letting the OG's have a free shot at him.

Also, thats why many think Martez Wilson would be ideal as one of the ILB's if we ran a 2-gap 3-4. He definitely has the size and speed to give OG's fits. Think Vaughn Johnson, but with 4.4 speed.

I really & truly believe that Martez will shine brightly in this new scheme.

Danno · 02-15-2013, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by K Major

I really & truly believe that Martez will shine brightly in this new scheme.

And it may be at more than just 1 position. He's a guy we can move around.

He has the physical tools to play all 4 LB spots.

SmashMouth · 02-15-2013, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

From an earlier post, in case you missed it.

One ILB, the MIKE will take on the 2 gaps on the strongside of the line, but both the SAM and the WILL have nearly identical responsibilities as the WILL and SAM in a traditional 4-3.

Vilma at the WILL in Rob's 3-4 is no different than what Vilma played under Spags 4-3, and Gregg Williams, who ran a lot of 3-4 when he was here.

Mangini's 3-4 and Rob's 3-4 are apples and oranges.

Here's a decent diagram of how Vilma (W) will be used...

Notice the RDE is over the guard. In Mangini's 3-4 the RDE was over the Tackle, leaving both ILB's to take on OG's

Nice.... Coach Danneaux!

hagan714 · 02-15-2013, 10:43 AM

we are on the hook for way too much money this year with that contract to cut him

FinSaint · 02-15-2013, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

Yes, Crennel and Belichick did run the classic 2-gap 3-4, which is a bad fit for Vilma.

I only mentioned that since Rob Ryan was in that New England staff as the LB coach (2000-2003) when Crennel was the DC under Belichick for those Super Bowls. That just lead me to thinking about how his scheme differs from those whom he has worked under previously - people that could've had an impact on his coaching philosophy.

02-15-2013, 08:55 AM	#11
Threaded by Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,723 Rating: (0 votes - average) From an earlier post, in case you missed it. One ILB, the MIKE will take on the 2 gaps on the strongside of the line, but both the SAM and the WILL have nearly identical responsibilities as the WILL and SAM in a traditional 4-3. Vilma at the WILL in Rob's 3-4 is no different than what Vilma played under Spags 4-3, and Gregg Williams, who ran a lot of 3-4 when he was here. Mangini's 3-4 and Rob's 3-4 are apples and oranges. Here's a decent diagram of how Vilma (W) will be used... Notice the RDE is over the guard. In Mangini's 3-4 the RDE was over the Tackle, leaving both ILB's to take on OG's FinSaint likes this.
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02-15-2013, 09:52 AM	#12
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Sean Payton sees a role for Jonathan Vilma in new New Orleans Saints 3-4 defense In the diagram above, one would then presume that the "Jack" or WOLB would have to be pretty good against the run on top of his pass rushing abilities, since he would be left pretty much alone against weakside run plays. And if the weakside OT is able to engage the WOLB, then the WILB would have to be able to tackle or contain the ball carrier. In that scenario I would think Vilma wouldn't be at his best, since he was whiffing on open field tackles on ball carriers on too many plays last season. Although, I guess Lofton/Hawthorne could be able to cover for him from the SILB position if they reacted quickly enough. BTW, didn't Crennel and Belichick place the NT at the 0 stance, as in square on top of the center, because I seem to remember them doing that, and even still Wilfork lines up as a 0 tech if I'm not mistaken?
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

02-15-2013, 10:03 AM	#13
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,723	Re: Sean Payton sees a role for Jonathan Vilma in new New Orleans Saints 3-4 defense Originally Posted by FinSaint In the diagram above, one would then presume that the "Jack" or WOLB would have to be pretty good against the run on top of his pass rushing abilities, since he would be left pretty much alone against weakside run plays. And if the weakside OT is able to engage the WOLB, then the WILB would have to be able to tackle or contain the ball carrier. In that scenario I would think Vilma wouldn't be at his best, since he was whiffing on open field tackles on ball carriers on too many plays last season. Although, I guess Lofton/Hawthorne could be able to cover for him from the SILB position if they reacted quickly enough. BTW, didn't Crennel and Belichick place the NT at the 0 stance, as in square on top of the center, because I seem to remember them doing that, and even still Wilfork lines up as a 0 tech if I'm not mistaken? Yes, Crennel and Belichick did run the classic 2-gap 3-4, which is a bad fit for Vilma. I think the WILB in this scheme is good for Vilma. He still has enough speed to cover the outside, especially since he'll be shifted toward that side. That RDE is the key against the weakside run. Thats the DE that has to be able to play the run and pass equally well. I think the RDE is the spot for Jordan right now, although Hicks might be the man eventually. The entire discussion about Vilma simply boils down to not letting the OG's have a free shot at him. Also, thats why many think Martez Wilson would be ideal as one of the ILB's if we ran a 2-gap 3-4. He definitely has the size and speed to give OG's fits. Think Vaughn Johnson, but with 4.4 speed.

02-15-2013, 10:17 AM	#14
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,622 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Sean Payton sees a role for Jonathan Vilma in new New Orleans Saints 3-4 defense Originally Posted by Danno Yes, Crennel and Belichick did run the classic 2-gap 3-4, which is a bad fit for Vilma. I think the WILB in this scheme is good for Vilma. He still has enough speed to cover the outside, especially since he'll be shifted toward that side. That RDE is the key against the weakside run. Thats the DE that has to be able to play the run and pass equally well. I think the RDE is the spot for Jordan right now, although Hicks might be the man eventually. The entire discussion about Vilma simply boils down to not letting the OG's have a free shot at him. Also, thats why many think Martez Wilson would be ideal as one of the ILB's if we ran a 2-gap 3-4. He definitely has the size and speed to give OG's fits. Think Vaughn Johnson, but with 4.4 speed. I really & truly believe that Martez will shine brightly in this new scheme.

02-15-2013, 10:18 AM	#15
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,723	Re: Sean Payton sees a role for Jonathan Vilma in new New Orleans Saints 3-4 defense Originally Posted by K Major I really & truly believe that Martez will shine brightly in this new scheme. And it may be at more than just 1 position. He's a guy we can move around. He has the physical tools to play all 4 LB spots.

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02-15-2013, 10:24 AM	#16
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,201 Blog Entries: 29	Re: Sean Payton sees a role for Jonathan Vilma in new New Orleans Saints 3-4 defense Originally Posted by Danno From an earlier post, in case you missed it. One ILB, the MIKE will take on the 2 gaps on the strongside of the line, but both the SAM and the WILL have nearly identical responsibilities as the WILL and SAM in a traditional 4-3. Vilma at the WILL in Rob's 3-4 is no different than what Vilma played under Spags 4-3, and Gregg Williams, who ran a lot of 3-4 when he was here. Mangini's 3-4 and Rob's 3-4 are apples and oranges. Here's a decent diagram of how Vilma (W) will be used... Notice the RDE is over the guard. In Mangini's 3-4 the RDE was over the Tackle, leaving both ILB's to take on OG's Nice.... Coach Danneaux!

02-15-2013, 10:43 AM	#17
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: Sean Payton sees a role for Jonathan Vilma in new New Orleans Saints 3-4 defense we are on the hook for way too much money this year with that contract to cut him

02-15-2013, 12:24 PM	#18
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Sean Payton sees a role for Jonathan Vilma in new New Orleans Saints 3-4 defense Originally Posted by Danno Yes, Crennel and Belichick did run the classic 2-gap 3-4, which is a bad fit for Vilma. I only mentioned that since Rob Ryan was in that New England staff as the LB coach (2000-2003) when Crennel was the DC under Belichick for those Super Bowls. That just lead me to thinking about how his scheme differs from those whom he has worked under previously - people that could've had an impact on his coaching philosophy.

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