Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

Ok, well... That is how some saw him going into the season. I, for one, never saw much improvement. He showed flashes, but that was it.

The assumption you're making (and let me say that I hope you're right), is that he struggled this year because of a new system. I don't think that was it. The real adjustment fell on the front seven. Robinson, if he WERE a good corner, should have been able to keep up with receivers. His only real strength is his speed. Yet they were blowing by him, left and right, because his instincts are horrible.

Instincts are the hallmark of any good player, regardless of talent level.

Here's the other reason I believe to be part of his struggles. His second year was his first significant action, and I think opposing coaches were able to use that film to really dissect his weaknesses. I can see where a new scheme would affect him to a degree, but he was plain awful. The difference of zone or man coverage is not so great that a good player couldn't at least perform admirably.

I'm all for talking about upside, but at some point you gotta deliver. Calling him a good corner is what raised my eyebrow. Potential does not equal quality. It merely presents the possibility.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

Could be we get another vet player to play man cover, someone who can do their job?

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

Who called him a good corner?

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

Excuse me, you said he wasn't a BAD corner. My mistake. But it still raises an eyebrow. He was absolutely HORRIFIC last year. As were other members of the secondary, but with the exception of Jenkins, none of them came here with the expectations of P-Rob. He just seems like a colossal waist of talent.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

Robinson, Patrick, Lofton, Greer, Harper, Hawthorn, Jenkins and Vilma all graded out near worst in the entire NFL.

I think its a waste to use 2012 to evaluate much at all. And prior to 2012 Robinson appeared to be progressing nicely.

He may indeed end up sucking in 2013, but as I said he has much more upside than Johnny Patrick, which is why Robinson wasn't cut before Patrick, which was the question that started this discussion.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

That argument kind of falls right in my lap.

I mentioned how the new scheme mostly affects the front seven. Therefore, mentioning linebackers isn't a good example. Plus the discussion is not about linebackers.

Also, Hawthorne was hurt all year AND playing out of position. Greer is getting old and is always nicked up. Vilma is in the absolute twilight of his career and didn't play much coming off injury and suspension. I have already mentioned in several threads how badly Harper and Jenkins have sucked. The reason I didn't bring them up is because we weren't talking about them.

And lastly, I know Johnny Patrick was terrible and was not arguing about that. I responded to your comment about Patrick Robinson, not the original post.

A lot of those guys had excuses of being either old, out of position or injured. Some of them just aren't that talented to begin with. Robinson and Jenkins don't have any excuses. Harper is one of the not so talented guys, but I get on him because he's been starting for 7 years. I've seen enough of his play.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

Just looking at the Saints 2013 schedule and seeing teams with stud WR's with the likes of Julio Jones, Roddy White, Brandon Marshall, Larry Fitzgerald, Dez B. etc 'concerns me' having Pat Robinson covering them. I surely hope we can acquire a quality corner in FA/draft. Robinson is just not very good at this level & quite frankly, I'm tired of looking at him out there getting torched.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

The new scheme will utilize man-press coverage, not zone. Its just as different as the scheme change for the front 7.

The original question I responded to was why did we cut Patrick instead of Robinson. How it evolved into this discussion is puzzling.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

I agree completely with Danno on this. During his 2nd year there was a noticeable improvement in how Robinson played, and that is definitely what you are looking in a 2nd year player. Robinson is clearly better suited for man coverage than zone, because he isn't physical enough to re-route receivers from the LOS, but he has great athleticism to blanket receivers down the field. I would be ready to place a monetary bet on the fact that Robinson's performances will improve quite a lot just by the Saints' backfield reverting back to a man coverage scheme, but I also think that he has taken a lot out of this past season's problems and will improve both mentally and physically for the coming season.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

In my opinion, I'm still not comfortable with him even in man coverage and he doesn't do a great job of "Blanketing Receivers" downfield, just look at what Dez Bryant did to him when we played dallas and Pat robinson was in man coverage both times
He made Pat Robinson look like a high school player trying to keep up with an NFL receiver
And not just once, he beat Robinson twice for 54 yards and a TD each time

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

I really liked Dave Thomas. Best of luck Dave. Boy didi we wiff on Johnny Patrick.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

Our Patricks suck!!! :wink:
Somebody has to go........thanks Dave! Good luck if you file those concussion lawsuits.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

I never claimed that he does or is capable of doing a "great job of blanketing receivers." What I said was that Robinson has great athleticism which, IMO, suits better man coverage where receivers need to be blanketed.

And I do agree with you that Robinson was terrible in that game covering Bryant, but the thing is that you can't just find guys off the street who can cover receivers like Bryant for as long as the Saints' front 7 was giving Romo to decide where to throw the ball, so who do you replace him with?And if my memory serves me right, Robinson was in position to make a play on both of those big plays, but unfortunately he didn't or failed in trying to make those plays, which is why I think he has the capability to be a solid #2 CB - he at least has the speed for it which Patrick lacked.

I'm all for upgrading every single player on the Saints' roster to a better player - if one can be found - but that is not possible even if the Saints had the cap room to do that, because elite players are just not available that often since teams tend to want to keep hold of them after they've been able to acquire such a player.

Anyway, I'm willing to give Robinson another chance to prove his worth to the team, and if anything, he'll provide some needed depth on the Saints' backfield.

I would love it if the Saints were able to bring in a bigger corner into the fold, someone they could put against those big receivers you listed. It would be excellent if the Saints were able to pick someone like Amerson (6-2) from the draft, but that would mean that they'd have to use their 1st round pick on him or trade back and use a gained 2nd rounder to pick him. Nevertheless, I still think that the defensive front is much more important to improve than the defensive backfield.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

Haha! Who is the best TE available in the 15th slot?

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

New San Diego general manager Tom Telesco made a potentially intriguing move Wednesday by claiming cornerback Johnny Patrick off waivers from New Orleans.

CB-needy Chargers make claim - NFL Nation Blog - ESPN

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

Well his cost is about the same as a street scrub. It certainly doesn't hurt them to give him a shot.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

And they somehow managed to figure out that Norv needed to go. Imagine.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

I know we're switching to man. I said the difference between zone and man is not so great that you can't perform at least admirably, if you're actually a good player. It's not as complicated as all the moving around upfront in spags' system. Why did Spags' have success in New York, and even had fairly respectable Defenses with the Rams? Why were those players able to adjust to his system, but not ours? Because, apparently, those teams had better players on defense.

And how you can be confused as to how we are talking about this, is frankly puzzling to me. I get that you believe P-Rob is better than Patrick. I agree with that... Though it isn't saying much. But when you said that Robinson was not bad, and later tried to blame his problems on his coach, I highly disagreed with both those points. I don't think it's rocket science, is it?

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

He did not play zone 100% of the time. You can go back and look at any coverage he was in, and see him get blown up. As I said in another post, I think teams were able to look at his film after his second season (because that was his first significant playing time) and exploit his weaknesses. Among other things, he bites on the hitch and go with tremendous regularity. He is also afraid to come up and hit somebody, which teams took advantage of with a lot of shorter routes, allowing their receivers to pile up the "YAC".

I really hope you and Danno are right about the scheme making a difference, but I just don't see how we can pawn off that level of suckage on just the scheme.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

Rob Ryan will evaluate PRob much like he did Mike Jenkins and Orlando Scandrick at corner position in Dallas... unfortunately for them they simply weren't good enough so they were introduced to the bench and enter F/A Brandon Carr and draft pick Mo Claiborne. At some point, you can't keep shaking fingers on coaches, schemes or lack of an effective pass rush on his inability to perform. You either can play the position or you can't.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

For a recent third-round pick who couldn’t get on the field for the league’s all-time worst defense (as measured by yards allowed), cornerback Johnny Patrick was popular yesterday.

After being released by the Saints, he was claimed off waivers by the Chargers. But according to Adam Caplan of TheSidelineView.com, the Seahawks and Colts also put in claims for the former Louisville corner.

Patrick being popular (primarily because he’s cheap) illustrates the “one man’s trash is another man’s treasure” nature of the business, which is worth remembering as teams obsess over the measurables of mid- to late-round picks this week.

Johnny Patrick was a popular waiver-wire name | ProFootballTalk

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

When he starts for that team and leads his league in INT - oh man is there going to be some drama...

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

When corey white was struggling I was thinking "man why don't they just put Johnny Patrick out there, he looked great in preseason"

Then they finally did, and he single handedly nearly lost the dallas game for us

Lets hope corey white is fully healthy and can continue from last season, he was playing real well before he got injured

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

He sure did look like he was developing nicely.

Don't forget, many scouting sites thought his best fit in the NFL was at FS.

Hmmm.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

He does have the size to play FS and he's a fast guy, you never know

This is the best coverage by a saints DB on a deep pass that i've seen in a long while - he plays the ball very well in flight

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

The db coach in San Diago is pretty good, but you look at the Seahawks db. coach he's even better, makes me think what 2 real good db. coaches see that we might of missed. I know our db. coach stinks. Maybe, just maybe he is part of the problem.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

We definatly do need a true polished corner, not only for his field play but also to teach, we don't have one. Greers not bad but one more we could be good, not great but good.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

Seahawks DB Coach Kris Richard, only 33, would be an outstanding DC

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

Do you mean Andre Curtis, the assistant secondary coach, when you are talking about the Saints' DB coach?

Because if you do, I think you are barking up the wrong tree, since he's only been with the team for a year and his track-record before that would indicate that he is more than capable of doing the job and developing the Saints' DBs.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

If he can get them to tackle, hit, and play some D you may be right. But judging by last years performance or should I say lack of, his track records mean nothing, look at Spags., performance is EVERYTHING, and he has shown nothing to prove me wrong.

Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick
 

Still, he has only had a year to work with the secondary players, and that was a year in which both a new DC and a new secondary coach took over and implemented their schemes which were different than what the players were used to.

So, I wouldn't put too much of the blame for the way the secondary performed last season on the shoulders of Curtis, but only time will tell if my belief in that regard was justified.