Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick

Danno · 02-20-2013, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Could you elaborate on this?

Yes, in his 2nd year under GW he started improving quite a bit. It looked like he was progressing nicely. He even looked to be passing Greer as our best CB. Then came Spags.

Patrick Robinson has all the tools to be a solid CB in this league. Under the right coachiong he may turn out very well. Johnny Patrick... not so much.

burningmetal · 02-20-2013, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Yes, in his 2nd year under GW he started improving quite a bit. It looked like he was progressing nicely. He even looked to be passing Greer as our best CB. Then came Spags.

Patrick Robinson has all the tools to be a solid CB in this league. Under the right coachiong he may turn out very well. Johnny Patrick... not so much.

Ok, well... That is how some saw him going into the season. I, for one, never saw much improvement. He showed flashes, but that was it.

The assumption you're making (and let me say that I hope you're right), is that he struggled this year because of a new system. I don't think that was it. The real adjustment fell on the front seven. Robinson, if he WERE a good corner, should have been able to keep up with receivers. His only real strength is his speed. Yet they were blowing by him, left and right, because his instincts are horrible.

Instincts are the hallmark of any good player, regardless of talent level.

Here's the other reason I believe to be part of his struggles. His second year was his first significant action, and I think opposing coaches were able to use that film to really dissect his weaknesses. I can see where a new scheme would affect him to a degree, but he was plain awful. The difference of zone or man coverage is not so great that a good player couldn't at least perform admirably.

I'm all for talking about upside, but at some point you gotta deliver. Calling him a good corner is what raised my eyebrow. Potential does not equal quality. It merely presents the possibility.

Danno · 02-20-2013, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

...
I'm all for talking about upside, but at some point you gotta deliver. Calling him a good corner is what raised my eyebrow. Potential does not equal quality. It merely presents the possibility.

Who called him a good corner?

burningmetal · 02-20-2013, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Who called him a good corner?

Excuse me, you said he wasn't a BAD corner. My mistake. But it still raises an eyebrow. He was absolutely HORRIFIC last year. As were other members of the secondary, but with the exception of Jenkins, none of them came here with the expectations of P-Rob. He just seems like a colossal waist of talent.

Danno · 02-20-2013, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Excuse me, you said he wasn't a BAD corner. My mistake. But it still raises an eyebrow. He was absolutely HORRIFIC last year. As were other members of the secondary, but with the exception of Jenkins, none of them came here with the expectations of P-Rob. He just seems like a colossal waist of talent.

Robinson, Patrick, Lofton, Greer, Harper, Hawthorn, Jenkins and Vilma all graded out near worst in the entire NFL.

I think its a waste to use 2012 to evaluate much at all. And prior to 2012 Robinson appeared to be progressing nicely.

He may indeed end up sucking in 2013, but as I said he has much more upside than Johnny Patrick, which is why Robinson wasn't cut before Patrick, which was the question that started this discussion.

burningmetal · 02-20-2013, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Robinson, Patrick, Lofton, Greer, Harper, Hawthorn, Jenkins and Vilma all graded out near worst in the entire NFL.

I think its a waste to use 2012 to evaluate much at all. And prior to 2012 Robinson appeared to be progressing nicely.

He may indeed end up sucking in 2013, but as I said he has much more upside than Johnny Patrick, which is why Robinson wasn't cut before Patrick, which was the question that started this discussion.

That argument kind of falls right in my lap.

I mentioned how the new scheme mostly affects the front seven. Therefore, mentioning linebackers isn't a good example. Plus the discussion is not about linebackers.

Also, Hawthorne was hurt all year AND playing out of position. Greer is getting old and is always nicked up. Vilma is in the absolute twilight of his career and didn't play much coming off injury and suspension. I have already mentioned in several threads how badly Harper and Jenkins have sucked. The reason I didn't bring them up is because we weren't talking about them.

And lastly, I know Johnny Patrick was terrible and was not arguing about that. I responded to your comment about Patrick Robinson, not the original post.

A lot of those guys had excuses of being either old, out of position or injured. Some of them just aren't that talented to begin with. Robinson and Jenkins don't have any excuses. Harper is one of the not so talented guys, but I get on him because he's been starting for 7 years. I've seen enough of his play.

Danno · 02-20-2013, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

That argument kind of falls right in my lap.

I mentioned how the new scheme mostly affects the front seven. Therefore, mentioning linebackers isn't a good example. Plus the discussion is not about linebackers.

The new scheme will utilize man-press coverage, not zone. Its just as different as the scheme change for the front 7.

The original question I responded to was why did we cut Patrick instead of Robinson. How it evolved into this discussion is puzzling.

FinSaint · 02-20-2013, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

Yes, in his 2nd year under GW he started improving quite a bit. It looked like he was progressing nicely. He even looked to be passing Greer as our best CB. Then came Spags.

Patrick Robinson has all the tools to be a solid CB in this league. Under the right coachiong he may turn out very well. Johnny Patrick... not so much.

I agree completely with Danno on this. During his 2nd year there was a noticeable improvement in how Robinson played, and that is definitely what you are looking in a 2nd year player. Robinson is clearly better suited for man coverage than zone, because he isn't physical enough to re-route receivers from the LOS, but he has great athleticism to blanket receivers down the field. I would be ready to place a monetary bet on the fact that Robinson's performances will improve quite a lot just by the Saints' backfield reverting back to a man coverage scheme, but I also think that he has taken a lot out of this past season's problems and will improve both mentally and physically for the coming season.

dizzle88 · 02-20-2013, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

I agree completely with Danno on this. During his 2nd year there was a noticeable improvement in how Robinson played, and that is definitely what you are looking in a 2nd year player. Robinson is clearly better suited for man coverage than zone, because he isn't physical enough to re-route receivers from the LOS, but he has great athleticism to blanket receivers down the field. I would be ready to place a monetary bet on the fact that Robinson's performances will improve quite a lot just by the Saints' backfield reverting back to a man coverage scheme, but I also think that he has taken a lot out of this past season's problems and will improve both mentally and physically for the coming season.

In my opinion, I'm still not comfortable with him even in man coverage and he doesn't do a great job of "Blanketing Receivers" downfield, just look at what Dez Bryant did to him when we played dallas and Pat robinson was in man coverage both times
He made Pat Robinson look like a high school player trying to keep up with an NFL receiver
And not just once, he beat Robinson twice for 54 yards and a TD each time

FinSaint · 02-20-2013, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

In my opinion, I'm still not comfortable with him even in man coverage and he doesn't do a great job of "Blanketing Receivers" downfield, just look at what Dez Bryant did to him when we played dallas and Pat robinson was in man coverage both times
He made Pat Robinson look like a high school player trying to keep up with an NFL receiver
And not just once, he beat Robinson twice for 54 yards and a TD each time

I never claimed that he does or is capable of doing a "great job of blanketing receivers." What I said was that Robinson has great athleticism which, IMO, suits better man coverage where receivers need to be blanketed.

And I do agree with you that Robinson was terrible in that game covering Bryant, but the thing is that you can't just find guys off the street who can cover receivers like Bryant for as long as the Saints' front 7 was giving Romo to decide where to throw the ball, so who do you replace him with?And if my memory serves me right, Robinson was in position to make a play on both of those big plays, but unfortunately he didn't or failed in trying to make those plays, which is why I think he has the capability to be a solid #2 CB - he at least has the speed for it which Patrick lacked.

I'm all for upgrading every single player on the Saints' roster to a better player - if one can be found - but that is not possible even if the Saints had the cap room to do that, because elite players are just not available that often since teams tend to want to keep hold of them after they've been able to acquire such a player.

Anyway, I'm willing to give Robinson another chance to prove his worth to the team, and if anything, he'll provide some needed depth on the Saints' backfield.

I would love it if the Saints were able to bring in a bigger corner into the fold, someone they could put against those big receivers you listed. It would be excellent if the Saints were able to pick someone like Amerson (6-2) from the draft, but that would mean that they'd have to use their 1st round pick on him or trade back and use a gained 2nd rounder to pick him. Nevertheless, I still think that the defensive front is much more important to improve than the defensive backfield.

02-20-2013, 08:14 AM	#1
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,757	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by burningmetal Could you elaborate on this? Yes, in his 2nd year under GW he started improving quite a bit. It looked like he was progressing nicely. He even looked to be passing Greer as our best CB. Then came Spags. Patrick Robinson has all the tools to be a solid CB in this league. Under the right coachiong he may turn out very well. Johnny Patrick... not so much. FinSaint likes this.

02-20-2013, 08:52 AM	#2
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by Danno Yes, in his 2nd year under GW he started improving quite a bit. It looked like he was progressing nicely. He even looked to be passing Greer as our best CB. Then came Spags. Patrick Robinson has all the tools to be a solid CB in this league. Under the right coachiong he may turn out very well. Johnny Patrick... not so much. Ok, well... That is how some saw him going into the season. I, for one, never saw much improvement. He showed flashes, but that was it. The assumption you're making (and let me say that I hope you're right), is that he struggled this year because of a new system. I don't think that was it. The real adjustment fell on the front seven. Robinson, if he WERE a good corner, should have been able to keep up with receivers. His only real strength is his speed. Yet they were blowing by him, left and right, because his instincts are horrible. Instincts are the hallmark of any good player, regardless of talent level. Here's the other reason I believe to be part of his struggles. His second year was his first significant action, and I think opposing coaches were able to use that film to really dissect his weaknesses. I can see where a new scheme would affect him to a degree, but he was plain awful. The difference of zone or man coverage is not so great that a good player couldn't at least perform admirably. I'm all for talking about upside, but at some point you gotta deliver. Calling him a good corner is what raised my eyebrow. Potential does not equal quality. It merely presents the possibility. dizzle88 and K Major like this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

02-20-2013, 09:04 AM	#3
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,757	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by burningmetal ... I'm all for talking about upside, but at some point you gotta deliver. Calling him a good corner is what raised my eyebrow. Potential does not equal quality. It merely presents the possibility. Who called him a good corner?

02-20-2013, 09:08 AM	#4
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by Danno Who called him a good corner? Excuse me, you said he wasn't a BAD corner. My mistake. But it still raises an eyebrow. He was absolutely HORRIFIC last year. As were other members of the secondary, but with the exception of Jenkins, none of them came here with the expectations of P-Rob. He just seems like a colossal waist of talent.

02-20-2013, 09:18 AM	#5
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,757	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by burningmetal Excuse me, you said he wasn't a BAD corner. My mistake. But it still raises an eyebrow. He was absolutely HORRIFIC last year. As were other members of the secondary, but with the exception of Jenkins, none of them came here with the expectations of P-Rob. He just seems like a colossal waist of talent. Robinson, Patrick, Lofton, Greer, Harper, Hawthorn, Jenkins and Vilma all graded out near worst in the entire NFL. I think its a waste to use 2012 to evaluate much at all. And prior to 2012 Robinson appeared to be progressing nicely. He may indeed end up sucking in 2013, but as I said he has much more upside than Johnny Patrick, which is why Robinson wasn't cut before Patrick, which was the question that started this discussion.

02-20-2013, 09:30 AM	#6
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by Danno Robinson, Patrick, Lofton, Greer, Harper, Hawthorn, Jenkins and Vilma all graded out near worst in the entire NFL. I think its a waste to use 2012 to evaluate much at all. And prior to 2012 Robinson appeared to be progressing nicely. He may indeed end up sucking in 2013, but as I said he has much more upside than Johnny Patrick, which is why Robinson wasn't cut before Patrick, which was the question that started this discussion. That argument kind of falls right in my lap. I mentioned how the new scheme mostly affects the front seven. Therefore, mentioning linebackers isn't a good example. Plus the discussion is not about linebackers. Also, Hawthorne was hurt all year AND playing out of position. Greer is getting old and is always nicked up. Vilma is in the absolute twilight of his career and didn't play much coming off injury and suspension. I have already mentioned in several threads how badly Harper and Jenkins have sucked. The reason I didn't bring them up is because we weren't talking about them. And lastly, I know Johnny Patrick was terrible and was not arguing about that. I responded to your comment about Patrick Robinson, not the original post. A lot of those guys had excuses of being either old, out of position or injured. Some of them just aren't that talented to begin with. Robinson and Jenkins don't have any excuses. Harper is one of the not so talented guys, but I get on him because he's been starting for 7 years. I've seen enough of his play.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

02-20-2013, 09:52 AM	#7
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,757	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by burningmetal That argument kind of falls right in my lap. I mentioned how the new scheme mostly affects the front seven. Therefore, mentioning linebackers isn't a good example. Plus the discussion is not about linebackers. The new scheme will utilize man-press coverage, not zone. Its just as different as the scheme change for the front 7. The original question I responded to was why did we cut Patrick instead of Robinson. How it evolved into this discussion is puzzling. SapperSaint likes this.

02-20-2013, 12:03 PM	#8
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,963	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by Danno Yes, in his 2nd year under GW he started improving quite a bit. It looked like he was progressing nicely. He even looked to be passing Greer as our best CB. Then came Spags. Patrick Robinson has all the tools to be a solid CB in this league. Under the right coachiong he may turn out very well. Johnny Patrick... not so much. I agree completely with Danno on this. During his 2nd year there was a noticeable improvement in how Robinson played, and that is definitely what you are looking in a 2nd year player. Robinson is clearly better suited for man coverage than zone, because he isn't physical enough to re-route receivers from the LOS, but he has great athleticism to blanket receivers down the field. I would be ready to place a monetary bet on the fact that Robinson's performances will improve quite a lot just by the Saints' backfield reverting back to a man coverage scheme, but I also think that he has taken a lot out of this past season's problems and will improve both mentally and physically for the coming season.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

02-20-2013, 12:09 PM	#9
dizzle88 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 11,534	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by FinSaint I agree completely with Danno on this. During his 2nd year there was a noticeable improvement in how Robinson played, and that is definitely what you are looking in a 2nd year player. Robinson is clearly better suited for man coverage than zone, because he isn't physical enough to re-route receivers from the LOS, but he has great athleticism to blanket receivers down the field. I would be ready to place a monetary bet on the fact that Robinson's performances will improve quite a lot just by the Saints' backfield reverting back to a man coverage scheme, but I also think that he has taken a lot out of this past season's problems and will improve both mentally and physically for the coming season. In my opinion, I'm still not comfortable with him even in man coverage and he doesn't do a great job of "Blanketing Receivers" downfield, just look at what Dez Bryant did to him when we played dallas and Pat robinson was in man coverage both times He made Pat Robinson look like a high school player trying to keep up with an NFL receiver And not just once, he beat Robinson twice for 54 yards and a TD each time

02-20-2013, 04:31 PM	#10
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,963	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by dizzle88 In my opinion, I'm still not comfortable with him even in man coverage and he doesn't do a great job of "Blanketing Receivers" downfield, just look at what Dez Bryant did to him when we played dallas and Pat robinson was in man coverage both times He made Pat Robinson look like a high school player trying to keep up with an NFL receiver And not just once, he beat Robinson twice for 54 yards and a TD each time I never claimed that he does or is capable of doing a "great job of blanketing receivers." What I said was that Robinson has great athleticism which, IMO, suits better man coverage where receivers need to be blanketed. And I do agree with you that Robinson was terrible in that game covering Bryant, but the thing is that you can't just find guys off the street who can cover receivers like Bryant for as long as the Saints' front 7 was giving Romo to decide where to throw the ball, so who do you replace him with?And if my memory serves me right, Robinson was in position to make a play on both of those big plays, but unfortunately he didn't or failed in trying to make those plays, which is why I think he has the capability to be a solid #2 CB - he at least has the speed for it which Patrick lacked. I'm all for upgrading every single player on the Saints' roster to a better player - if one can be found - but that is not possible even if the Saints had the cap room to do that, because elite players are just not available that often since teams tend to want to keep hold of them after they've been able to acquire such a player. Anyway, I'm willing to give Robinson another chance to prove his worth to the team, and if anything, he'll provide some needed depth on the Saints' backfield. I would love it if the Saints were able to bring in a bigger corner into the fold, someone they could put against those big receivers you listed. It would be excellent if the Saints were able to pick someone like Amerson (6-2) from the draft, but that would mean that they'd have to use their 1st round pick on him or trade back and use a gained 2nd rounder to pick him. Nevertheless, I still think that the defensive front is much more important to improve than the defensive backfield. Danno likes this.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

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