Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick

burningmetal · 02-20-2013, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Yes, in his 2nd year under GW he started improving quite a bit. It looked like he was progressing nicely. He even looked to be passing Greer as our best CB. Then came Spags.

Patrick Robinson has all the tools to be a solid CB in this league. Under the right coachiong he may turn out very well. Johnny Patrick... not so much.

Ok, well... That is how some saw him going into the season. I, for one, never saw much improvement. He showed flashes, but that was it.

The assumption you're making (and let me say that I hope you're right), is that he struggled this year because of a new system. I don't think that was it. The real adjustment fell on the front seven. Robinson, if he WERE a good corner, should have been able to keep up with receivers. His only real strength is his speed. Yet they were blowing by him, left and right, because his instincts are horrible.

Instincts are the hallmark of any good player, regardless of talent level.

Here's the other reason I believe to be part of his struggles. His second year was his first significant action, and I think opposing coaches were able to use that film to really dissect his weaknesses. I can see where a new scheme would affect him to a degree, but he was plain awful. The difference of zone or man coverage is not so great that a good player couldn't at least perform admirably.

I'm all for talking about upside, but at some point you gotta deliver. Calling him a good corner is what raised my eyebrow. Potential does not equal quality. It merely presents the possibility.

Danno · 02-20-2013, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

...
I'm all for talking about upside, but at some point you gotta deliver. Calling him a good corner is what raised my eyebrow. Potential does not equal quality. It merely presents the possibility.

Who called him a good corner?

burningmetal · 02-20-2013, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Who called him a good corner?

Excuse me, you said he wasn't a BAD corner. My mistake. But it still raises an eyebrow. He was absolutely HORRIFIC last year. As were other members of the secondary, but with the exception of Jenkins, none of them came here with the expectations of P-Rob. He just seems like a colossal waist of talent.

Danno · 02-20-2013, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Excuse me, you said he wasn't a BAD corner. My mistake. But it still raises an eyebrow. He was absolutely HORRIFIC last year. As were other members of the secondary, but with the exception of Jenkins, none of them came here with the expectations of P-Rob. He just seems like a colossal waist of talent.

Robinson, Patrick, Lofton, Greer, Harper, Hawthorn, Jenkins and Vilma all graded out near worst in the entire NFL.

I think its a waste to use 2012 to evaluate much at all. And prior to 2012 Robinson appeared to be progressing nicely.

He may indeed end up sucking in 2013, but as I said he has much more upside than Johnny Patrick, which is why Robinson wasn't cut before Patrick, which was the question that started this discussion.

burningmetal · 02-20-2013, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Robinson, Patrick, Lofton, Greer, Harper, Hawthorn, Jenkins and Vilma all graded out near worst in the entire NFL.

I think its a waste to use 2012 to evaluate much at all. And prior to 2012 Robinson appeared to be progressing nicely.

He may indeed end up sucking in 2013, but as I said he has much more upside than Johnny Patrick, which is why Robinson wasn't cut before Patrick, which was the question that started this discussion.

That argument kind of falls right in my lap.

I mentioned how the new scheme mostly affects the front seven. Therefore, mentioning linebackers isn't a good example. Plus the discussion is not about linebackers.

Also, Hawthorne was hurt all year AND playing out of position. Greer is getting old and is always nicked up. Vilma is in the absolute twilight of his career and didn't play much coming off injury and suspension. I have already mentioned in several threads how badly Harper and Jenkins have sucked. The reason I didn't bring them up is because we weren't talking about them.

And lastly, I know Johnny Patrick was terrible and was not arguing about that. I responded to your comment about Patrick Robinson, not the original post.

A lot of those guys had excuses of being either old, out of position or injured. Some of them just aren't that talented to begin with. Robinson and Jenkins don't have any excuses. Harper is one of the not so talented guys, but I get on him because he's been starting for 7 years. I've seen enough of his play.

Danno · 02-20-2013, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

That argument kind of falls right in my lap.

I mentioned how the new scheme mostly affects the front seven. Therefore, mentioning linebackers isn't a good example. Plus the discussion is not about linebackers.

The new scheme will utilize man-press coverage, not zone. Its just as different as the scheme change for the front 7.

The original question I responded to was why did we cut Patrick instead of Robinson. How it evolved into this discussion is puzzling.

burningmetal · 02-20-2013, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

The new scheme will utilize man-press coverage, not zone. Its just as different as the scheme change for the front 7.

The original question I responded to was why did we cut Patrick instead of Robinson. How it evolved into this discussion is puzzling.

I know we're switching to man. I said the difference between zone and man is not so great that you can't perform at least admirably, if you're actually a good player. It's not as complicated as all the moving around upfront in spags' system. Why did Spags' have success in New York, and even had fairly respectable Defenses with the Rams? Why were those players able to adjust to his system, but not ours? Because, apparently, those teams had better players on defense.

And how you can be confused as to how we are talking about this, is frankly puzzling to me. I get that you believe P-Rob is better than Patrick. I agree with that... Though it isn't saying much. But when you said that Robinson was not bad, and later tried to blame his problems on his coach, I highly disagreed with both those points. I don't think it's rocket science, is it?

02-20-2013, 08:52 AM	#1
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by Danno Yes, in his 2nd year under GW he started improving quite a bit. It looked like he was progressing nicely. He even looked to be passing Greer as our best CB. Then came Spags. Patrick Robinson has all the tools to be a solid CB in this league. Under the right coachiong he may turn out very well. Johnny Patrick... not so much. Ok, well... That is how some saw him going into the season. I, for one, never saw much improvement. He showed flashes, but that was it. The assumption you're making (and let me say that I hope you're right), is that he struggled this year because of a new system. I don't think that was it. The real adjustment fell on the front seven. Robinson, if he WERE a good corner, should have been able to keep up with receivers. His only real strength is his speed. Yet they were blowing by him, left and right, because his instincts are horrible. Instincts are the hallmark of any good player, regardless of talent level. Here's the other reason I believe to be part of his struggles. His second year was his first significant action, and I think opposing coaches were able to use that film to really dissect his weaknesses. I can see where a new scheme would affect him to a degree, but he was plain awful. The difference of zone or man coverage is not so great that a good player couldn't at least perform admirably. I'm all for talking about upside, but at some point you gotta deliver. Calling him a good corner is what raised my eyebrow. Potential does not equal quality. It merely presents the possibility. dizzle88 and K Major like this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

02-20-2013, 09:04 AM	#2
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,757	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by burningmetal ... I'm all for talking about upside, but at some point you gotta deliver. Calling him a good corner is what raised my eyebrow. Potential does not equal quality. It merely presents the possibility. Who called him a good corner?

02-20-2013, 09:08 AM	#3
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by Danno Who called him a good corner? Excuse me, you said he wasn't a BAD corner. My mistake. But it still raises an eyebrow. He was absolutely HORRIFIC last year. As were other members of the secondary, but with the exception of Jenkins, none of them came here with the expectations of P-Rob. He just seems like a colossal waist of talent.

02-20-2013, 09:18 AM	#4
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,757	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by burningmetal Excuse me, you said he wasn't a BAD corner. My mistake. But it still raises an eyebrow. He was absolutely HORRIFIC last year. As were other members of the secondary, but with the exception of Jenkins, none of them came here with the expectations of P-Rob. He just seems like a colossal waist of talent. Robinson, Patrick, Lofton, Greer, Harper, Hawthorn, Jenkins and Vilma all graded out near worst in the entire NFL. I think its a waste to use 2012 to evaluate much at all. And prior to 2012 Robinson appeared to be progressing nicely. He may indeed end up sucking in 2013, but as I said he has much more upside than Johnny Patrick, which is why Robinson wasn't cut before Patrick, which was the question that started this discussion.

02-20-2013, 09:30 AM	#5
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by Danno Robinson, Patrick, Lofton, Greer, Harper, Hawthorn, Jenkins and Vilma all graded out near worst in the entire NFL. I think its a waste to use 2012 to evaluate much at all. And prior to 2012 Robinson appeared to be progressing nicely. He may indeed end up sucking in 2013, but as I said he has much more upside than Johnny Patrick, which is why Robinson wasn't cut before Patrick, which was the question that started this discussion. That argument kind of falls right in my lap. I mentioned how the new scheme mostly affects the front seven. Therefore, mentioning linebackers isn't a good example. Plus the discussion is not about linebackers. Also, Hawthorne was hurt all year AND playing out of position. Greer is getting old and is always nicked up. Vilma is in the absolute twilight of his career and didn't play much coming off injury and suspension. I have already mentioned in several threads how badly Harper and Jenkins have sucked. The reason I didn't bring them up is because we weren't talking about them. And lastly, I know Johnny Patrick was terrible and was not arguing about that. I responded to your comment about Patrick Robinson, not the original post. A lot of those guys had excuses of being either old, out of position or injured. Some of them just aren't that talented to begin with. Robinson and Jenkins don't have any excuses. Harper is one of the not so talented guys, but I get on him because he's been starting for 7 years. I've seen enough of his play.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

02-20-2013, 09:52 AM	#6
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,757	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by burningmetal That argument kind of falls right in my lap. I mentioned how the new scheme mostly affects the front seven. Therefore, mentioning linebackers isn't a good example. Plus the discussion is not about linebackers. The new scheme will utilize man-press coverage, not zone. Its just as different as the scheme change for the front 7. The original question I responded to was why did we cut Patrick instead of Robinson. How it evolved into this discussion is puzzling. SapperSaint likes this.

02-20-2013, 08:51 PM	#7
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by Danno The new scheme will utilize man-press coverage, not zone. Its just as different as the scheme change for the front 7. The original question I responded to was why did we cut Patrick instead of Robinson. How it evolved into this discussion is puzzling. I know we're switching to man. I said the difference between zone and man is not so great that you can't perform at least admirably, if you're actually a good player. It's not as complicated as all the moving around upfront in spags' system. Why did Spags' have success in New York, and even had fairly respectable Defenses with the Rams? Why were those players able to adjust to his system, but not ours? Because, apparently, those teams had better players on defense. And how you can be confused as to how we are talking about this, is frankly puzzling to me. I get that you believe P-Rob is better than Patrick. I agree with that... Though it isn't saying much. But when you said that Robinson was not bad, and later tried to blame his problems on his coach, I highly disagreed with both those points. I don't think it's rocket science, is it? K Major likes this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

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