Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick

FinSaint · 02-20-2013, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

Yes, in his 2nd year under GW he started improving quite a bit. It looked like he was progressing nicely. He even looked to be passing Greer as our best CB. Then came Spags.

Patrick Robinson has all the tools to be a solid CB in this league. Under the right coachiong he may turn out very well. Johnny Patrick... not so much.

I agree completely with Danno on this. During his 2nd year there was a noticeable improvement in how Robinson played, and that is definitely what you are looking in a 2nd year player. Robinson is clearly better suited for man coverage than zone, because he isn't physical enough to re-route receivers from the LOS, but he has great athleticism to blanket receivers down the field. I would be ready to place a monetary bet on the fact that Robinson's performances will improve quite a lot just by the Saints' backfield reverting back to a man coverage scheme, but I also think that he has taken a lot out of this past season's problems and will improve both mentally and physically for the coming season.

dizzle88 · 02-20-2013, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

I agree completely with Danno on this. During his 2nd year there was a noticeable improvement in how Robinson played, and that is definitely what you are looking in a 2nd year player. Robinson is clearly better suited for man coverage than zone, because he isn't physical enough to re-route receivers from the LOS, but he has great athleticism to blanket receivers down the field. I would be ready to place a monetary bet on the fact that Robinson's performances will improve quite a lot just by the Saints' backfield reverting back to a man coverage scheme, but I also think that he has taken a lot out of this past season's problems and will improve both mentally and physically for the coming season.

In my opinion, I'm still not comfortable with him even in man coverage and he doesn't do a great job of "Blanketing Receivers" downfield, just look at what Dez Bryant did to him when we played dallas and Pat robinson was in man coverage both times
He made Pat Robinson look like a high school player trying to keep up with an NFL receiver
And not just once, he beat Robinson twice for 54 yards and a TD each time

FinSaint · 02-20-2013, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

In my opinion, I'm still not comfortable with him even in man coverage and he doesn't do a great job of "Blanketing Receivers" downfield, just look at what Dez Bryant did to him when we played dallas and Pat robinson was in man coverage both times
He made Pat Robinson look like a high school player trying to keep up with an NFL receiver
And not just once, he beat Robinson twice for 54 yards and a TD each time

I never claimed that he does or is capable of doing a "great job of blanketing receivers." What I said was that Robinson has great athleticism which, IMO, suits better man coverage where receivers need to be blanketed.

And I do agree with you that Robinson was terrible in that game covering Bryant, but the thing is that you can't just find guys off the street who can cover receivers like Bryant for as long as the Saints' front 7 was giving Romo to decide where to throw the ball, so who do you replace him with?And if my memory serves me right, Robinson was in position to make a play on both of those big plays, but unfortunately he didn't or failed in trying to make those plays, which is why I think he has the capability to be a solid #2 CB - he at least has the speed for it which Patrick lacked.

I'm all for upgrading every single player on the Saints' roster to a better player - if one can be found - but that is not possible even if the Saints had the cap room to do that, because elite players are just not available that often since teams tend to want to keep hold of them after they've been able to acquire such a player.

Anyway, I'm willing to give Robinson another chance to prove his worth to the team, and if anything, he'll provide some needed depth on the Saints' backfield.

I would love it if the Saints were able to bring in a bigger corner into the fold, someone they could put against those big receivers you listed. It would be excellent if the Saints were able to pick someone like Amerson (6-2) from the draft, but that would mean that they'd have to use their 1st round pick on him or trade back and use a gained 2nd rounder to pick him. Nevertheless, I still think that the defensive front is much more important to improve than the defensive backfield.

burningmetal · 02-20-2013, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

I agree completely with Danno on this. During his 2nd year there was a noticeable improvement in how Robinson played, and that is definitely what you are looking in a 2nd year player. Robinson is clearly better suited for man coverage than zone, because he isn't physical enough to re-route receivers from the LOS, but he has great athleticism to blanket receivers down the field. I would be ready to place a monetary bet on the fact that Robinson's performances will improve quite a lot just by the Saints' backfield reverting back to a man coverage scheme, but I also think that he has taken a lot out of this past season's problems and will improve both mentally and physically for the coming season.

He did not play zone 100% of the time. You can go back and look at any coverage he was in, and see him get blown up. As I said in another post, I think teams were able to look at his film after his second season (because that was his first significant playing time) and exploit his weaknesses. Among other things, he bites on the hitch and go with tremendous regularity. He is also afraid to come up and hit somebody, which teams took advantage of with a lot of shorter routes, allowing their receivers to pile up the "YAC".

I really hope you and Danno are right about the scheme making a difference, but I just don't see how we can pawn off that level of suckage on just the scheme.

K Major · 02-20-2013, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

He did not play zone 100% of the time. You can go back and look at any coverage he was in, and see him get blown up. As I said in another post, I think teams were able to look at his film after his second season (because that was his first significant playing time) and exploit his weaknesses. Among other things, he bites on the hitch and go with tremendous regularity. He is also afraid to come up and hit somebody, which teams took advantage of with a lot of shorter routes, allowing their receivers to pile up the "YAC".

I really hope you and Danno are right about the scheme making a difference, but I just don't see how we can pawn off that level of suckage on just the scheme.

Rob Ryan will evaluate PRob much like he did Mike Jenkins and Orlando Scandrick at corner position in Dallas... unfortunately for them they simply weren't good enough so they were introduced to the bench and enter F/A Brandon Carr and draft pick Mo Claiborne. At some point, you can't keep shaking fingers on coaches, schemes or lack of an effective pass rush on his inability to perform. You either can play the position or you can't.

halloween 65 · 02-22-2013, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by K Major

Rob Ryan will evaluate PRob much like he did Mike Jenkins and Orlando Scandrick at corner position in Dallas... unfortunately for them they simply weren't good enough so they were introduced to the bench and enter F/A Brandon Carr and draft pick Mo Claiborne. At some point, you can't keep shaking fingers on coaches, schemes or lack of an effective pass rush on his inability to perform. You either can play the position or you can't.

We definatly do need a true polished corner, not only for his field play but also to teach, we don't have one. Greers not bad but one more we could be good, not great but good.

02-20-2013, 12:03 PM	#1
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,963	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by Danno Yes, in his 2nd year under GW he started improving quite a bit. It looked like he was progressing nicely. He even looked to be passing Greer as our best CB. Then came Spags. Patrick Robinson has all the tools to be a solid CB in this league. Under the right coachiong he may turn out very well. Johnny Patrick... not so much. I agree completely with Danno on this. During his 2nd year there was a noticeable improvement in how Robinson played, and that is definitely what you are looking in a 2nd year player. Robinson is clearly better suited for man coverage than zone, because he isn't physical enough to re-route receivers from the LOS, but he has great athleticism to blanket receivers down the field. I would be ready to place a monetary bet on the fact that Robinson's performances will improve quite a lot just by the Saints' backfield reverting back to a man coverage scheme, but I also think that he has taken a lot out of this past season's problems and will improve both mentally and physically for the coming season.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

02-20-2013, 04:31 PM	#3
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,963	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by dizzle88 In my opinion, I'm still not comfortable with him even in man coverage and he doesn't do a great job of "Blanketing Receivers" downfield, just look at what Dez Bryant did to him when we played dallas and Pat robinson was in man coverage both times He made Pat Robinson look like a high school player trying to keep up with an NFL receiver And not just once, he beat Robinson twice for 54 yards and a TD each time I never claimed that he does or is capable of doing a "great job of blanketing receivers." What I said was that Robinson has great athleticism which, IMO, suits better man coverage where receivers need to be blanketed. And I do agree with you that Robinson was terrible in that game covering Bryant, but the thing is that you can't just find guys off the street who can cover receivers like Bryant for as long as the Saints' front 7 was giving Romo to decide where to throw the ball, so who do you replace him with?And if my memory serves me right, Robinson was in position to make a play on both of those big plays, but unfortunately he didn't or failed in trying to make those plays, which is why I think he has the capability to be a solid #2 CB - he at least has the speed for it which Patrick lacked. I'm all for upgrading every single player on the Saints' roster to a better player - if one can be found - but that is not possible even if the Saints had the cap room to do that, because elite players are just not available that often since teams tend to want to keep hold of them after they've been able to acquire such a player. Anyway, I'm willing to give Robinson another chance to prove his worth to the team, and if anything, he'll provide some needed depth on the Saints' backfield. I would love it if the Saints were able to bring in a bigger corner into the fold, someone they could put against those big receivers you listed. It would be excellent if the Saints were able to pick someone like Amerson (6-2) from the draft, but that would mean that they'd have to use their 1st round pick on him or trade back and use a gained 2nd rounder to pick him. Nevertheless, I still think that the defensive front is much more important to improve than the defensive backfield. Danno likes this.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

02-20-2013, 08:58 PM	#4
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by FinSaint I agree completely with Danno on this. During his 2nd year there was a noticeable improvement in how Robinson played, and that is definitely what you are looking in a 2nd year player. Robinson is clearly better suited for man coverage than zone, because he isn't physical enough to re-route receivers from the LOS, but he has great athleticism to blanket receivers down the field. I would be ready to place a monetary bet on the fact that Robinson's performances will improve quite a lot just by the Saints' backfield reverting back to a man coverage scheme, but I also think that he has taken a lot out of this past season's problems and will improve both mentally and physically for the coming season. He did not play zone 100% of the time. You can go back and look at any coverage he was in, and see him get blown up. As I said in another post, I think teams were able to look at his film after his second season (because that was his first significant playing time) and exploit his weaknesses. Among other things, he bites on the hitch and go with tremendous regularity. He is also afraid to come up and hit somebody, which teams took advantage of with a lot of shorter routes, allowing their receivers to pile up the "YAC". I really hope you and Danno are right about the scheme making a difference, but I just don't see how we can pawn off that level of suckage on just the scheme.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

02-20-2013, 09:18 PM	#5
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,831 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by burningmetal He did not play zone 100% of the time. You can go back and look at any coverage he was in, and see him get blown up. As I said in another post, I think teams were able to look at his film after his second season (because that was his first significant playing time) and exploit his weaknesses. Among other things, he bites on the hitch and go with tremendous regularity. He is also afraid to come up and hit somebody, which teams took advantage of with a lot of shorter routes, allowing their receivers to pile up the "YAC". I really hope you and Danno are right about the scheme making a difference, but I just don't see how we can pawn off that level of suckage on just the scheme. Rob Ryan will evaluate PRob much like he did Mike Jenkins and Orlando Scandrick at corner position in Dallas... unfortunately for them they simply weren't good enough so they were introduced to the bench and enter F/A Brandon Carr and draft pick Mo Claiborne. At some point, you can't keep shaking fingers on coaches, schemes or lack of an effective pass rush on his inability to perform. You either can play the position or you can't. halloween 65 and burningmetal like this.

02-22-2013, 09:44 AM	#6
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by K Major Rob Ryan will evaluate PRob much like he did Mike Jenkins and Orlando Scandrick at corner position in Dallas... unfortunately for them they simply weren't good enough so they were introduced to the bench and enter F/A Brandon Carr and draft pick Mo Claiborne. At some point, you can't keep shaking fingers on coaches, schemes or lack of an effective pass rush on his inability to perform. You either can play the position or you can't. We definatly do need a true polished corner, not only for his field play but also to teach, we don't have one. Greers not bad but one more we could be good, not great but good.

02-20-2013, 12:09 PM	#2
dizzle88 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 11,534	Re: Holder: Saints Cut Dave Thomas, Johnny Patrick Originally Posted by FinSaint I agree completely with Danno on this. During his 2nd year there was a noticeable improvement in how Robinson played, and that is definitely what you are looking in a 2nd year player. Robinson is clearly better suited for man coverage than zone, because he isn't physical enough to re-route receivers from the LOS, but he has great athleticism to blanket receivers down the field. I would be ready to place a monetary bet on the fact that Robinson's performances will improve quite a lot just by the Saints' backfield reverting back to a man coverage scheme, but I also think that he has taken a lot out of this past season's problems and will improve both mentally and physically for the coming season. In my opinion, I'm still not comfortable with him even in man coverage and he doesn't do a great job of "Blanketing Receivers" downfield, just look at what Dez Bryant did to him when we played dallas and Pat robinson was in man coverage both times He made Pat Robinson look like a high school player trying to keep up with an NFL receiver And not just once, he beat Robinson twice for 54 yards and a TD each time

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