Scheme or Players first?
 

With all the talk about the Saints running a 3-4 and what we need to do in the draft, i did a little digging just so i could understand what 2013 would bring us.

For those who would like a little more understanding about the 3-4 read this blog below. I will preface this with a quote from Bill Pacrells


Bill Parcells once said he would not run his own 3-4 until he had all the players it needs.

The advice from Bill Parcells: Don't rush!
Bills go from 3-4 to 4-3 in measured fashion, and look formidable - NFL - CBSSports.com News, Rumors, Scores, Stats, Fantasy

Understanding the 3-4 and its needs
The 3-4 Defense: A Primer | bruces1g's Football Blog | FanNation.com

I may be on my own on this one... However if your in a battle you have two options to win, defend your self or out attack your opponent. We are a good stretch from being able to defend our goal line adequately, so we need to pack more power into our offense.

For those who were glad to see the Saints keep Vilma... He was released from the Jets because he was not a good fit for the 3-4.

"It doesn't mean a trade is a certainty, but it's a tacit acknowledgement from both sides that Vilma and Mangini's 3-4 scheme aren't a match."
Jonathan Vilma can fly away - NY Daily News

2013 is going to be ugly. We do not have the Nose Tackle needed, we do not have two DE that can garner 20 sacks... We need to stick to the 4-3 until we have the PEOPLE.

We need to work on our dime and nickle since we will be in that 70% of the time anyway, the Saints force teams to pass to keep up.

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

This is so flawed. Bunkley has played NT in the past in a 3-4 and did it well. Jay Ratliff of the Cowboys has played multiple years at NT at 300 pounds. In a 3-4 defense, we do not need our defensive ends to focus on collecting sacks.

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

While Bunkley may have... The sacks comment didnt come from me... It came from Parcells, Pat Kerwan, Tim Ryan and Gil Brant....

I listened to the call yesteday, A Saints fan called in ans asked the specific question about the Saints and a 3-4 and that was what he was told... We do not have the people... by the experts... They did go on to say that any defensive coordinator interviewing for a job would say in the interview "sure I can"... Along with, while the Saints say they are running a 3-4 Ryan runs a 4-3, they line up at a 3-4 base but the LBs move and it will generally turn into a 4-3...

Flawed or not, I consider those guys experts.


And Dallas has switched back to a 4-3....
RTN: How Cowboys' Personnel Fits Monte Kiffen's 4-3 Defense

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

You're certainly entitled to feel the way you do. I just think it's a pessemistic way to look at our 2013 season on defense.

Monte Kiffen has always run a 4-3 cover 2... no point in him staying in a 3-4. It's like asking a history teacher to teach a math class.

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

Coaches generally teach Home Economics... or remedial math. :-P

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

We don't have the players we need for a successful 4-3 either; while Cam Jordan has moderately improved, do you really think opposing QB's feared our pass rush?!?

The only guy that made opposing QB's go "What the **** just hit me?" was Martez Wilson and that's because we rarely used him...

We've got to shake things up and get the players we need...

And in regards to your strengthen our strength idea, you are right as we need a FA wide receiver like Danario Alexander and a Left Tackle TBD; but here's the thing - we've got a tu-bloc Salary Cap situation right now and running back is where we've got some wealth to trade...

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

Thanks for the info. IMHO we would be wise to load up on NT and rush LBS in this years draft deep in those positions

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

While Drew has damaged the cap.. I just realized that Vilma is an 8M cap hit this year? WTF?
Jonathan Vilma Contract, Salaries, and Transactions

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

Vilma played in a much different 3-4 in New York. It was a traditional 2-gap 3-4 that requires bigger ILB's to fight off the OG's, and that big fat ugly NT.

The 1-gap we'll be using is very similar to a 4-3. The DE's are just a shade further out with the NT lined up between the OC and OG.

Vilma will NOT be required to take on OG's any more than playing the WILL in a 4-3. Its almost the exact same position.

I also feel that we have more personnel that fit the 3-4 than we do that fit a 4-3.

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

I feel the same. Bunkley and Cam Jordan are both 3-4 products to begin with. Bunkley did amazing in Denver, and it seems Denver took a step back this year without him, honestly. Jordan play 3-4 DE at CAL.

Our linebackers SURELY can't play any worse than they did this year, with the exception of Lofton. So I am really not seeing how we could take a step back by going to the 3-4. We were the worst defense in history.....

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

What ever you do you have to commit to it.

You don't say you're going to be a run team and never run.

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

If we can grab a decent middle monster and a kickass LB, we'll do alright. And really, that's all we'll need to do on the D side.

What the hell does the Tuna know anyhow?

Haha, I'm still sayin' the glass is half full.

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

Players. Duh! :wink:

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

there is no real way we can be a true 34 defense next. it will be a year of transition. if not we once again picked the wrong DC yet again. 2 to 3 years for transition time. thats what i am looking at

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

It all comes down to which of two philosphies you have. You either adapt your scheme to your current players or you decide on a scheme and then go get the players needed to run it.
I generally tend to like the first approach better since it usually gives you more flexibility and its a good way to maximize talent.

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

Or there's just plain realism which I'll refer to as the anti-Spags. The anti-Spags starts where you are and works to get to where you're goin'. I see us as having a great deal of 3-4 talent already. Just a couple of new key players will have us being a much better D than last year. While that's really not saying much, we really didn't need to be that much better to have gone deep into the playoffs.

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

We "need" what we had in 2009 and not much more. ONE player that can generate turnovers.

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

My gut is telling me we will pick 1 maybe 2 D players in the draft and the rest will be O.

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

In terms of scheme or the players to play the scheme, I happen to think we already may be a lot closer to having the right personnel for a 3-4, than some of the more cynical people in this forum believe we are. I don't think this came out of nowhere, or sprang suddenly from Payton's head while he was sitting on the couch with a bag of Cheetos in week 15. I think they have been eyeballing this move for some time now, maybe a long time.

Then the bounty suspensions happened, and remember they had to construct most of the defense in the spring last year, while NOT knowing what the player suspensions were going to be or WHO would be out for how long. So that was a big monkey wrench.

Looking back in hindsight on certain newer guys we picked up on the defense, it just really gives me that feeling, that this was kinda planned out or thought through -- Junior Gallette, Martez Wilson, Akiem Hicks, Bunkley, Cam Jordan. Turns out that so many of these young guys we have been stoked about, the ones who've been getting kinda limited playing time, or being worked in to the roster, they have 3-4 potential or past experience!

But in my mind's eye, I can see this 3-4, like a lot of people in this thread also "see it" -- I'm hoping this pans out, that Payton has actually followed Parcells' advice to the letter, been patient, gotten the personnel he needs in advance of the switch, and that we have an amazing "shock the world" defense next year, that gets turnovers and finishes in the high 20s of the rankings or better.

Re: Scheme or Players first?
 

Agreed. We aren't loaded with 3-4 talent, but we currently have more guys who fit a 3-4 than fit a 4-3.