Scheme or Players first?

TheOak · 02-26-2013, 11:10 AM

With all the talk about the Saints running a 3-4 and what we need to do in the draft, i did a little digging just so i could understand what 2013 would bring us.

For those who would like a little more understanding about the 3-4 read this blog below. I will preface this with a quote from Bill Pacrells

Bill Parcells once said he would not run his own 3-4 until he had all the players it needs.

The advice from Bill Parcells: Don't rush!
Bills go from 3-4 to 4-3 in measured fashion, and look formidable - NFL - CBSSports.com News, Rumors, Scores, Stats, Fantasy

Understanding the 3-4 and its needs
The 3-4 Defense: A Primer | bruces1g's Football Blog | FanNation.com

I may be on my own on this one... However if your in a battle you have two options to win, defend your self or out attack your opponent. We are a good stretch from being able to defend our goal line adequately, so we need to pack more power into our offense.

For those who were glad to see the Saints keep Vilma... He was released from the Jets because he was not a good fit for the 3-4.

"It doesn't mean a trade is a certainty, but it's a tacit acknowledgement from both sides that Vilma and Mangini's 3-4 scheme aren't a match."
Jonathan Vilma can fly away - NY Daily News

2013 is going to be ugly. We do not have the Nose Tackle needed, we do not have two DE that can garner 20 sacks... We need to stick to the 4-3 until we have the PEOPLE.

We need to work on our dime and nickle since we will be in that 70% of the time anyway, the Saints force teams to pass to keep up.

papz · 02-26-2013, 11:34 AM

2013 is going to be ugly. We do not have the Nose Tackle needed, we do not have two DE that can garner 20 sacks... We need to stick to the 4-3 until we have the PEOPLE.

We need to work on our dime and nickle since we will be in that 70% of the time anyway, the Saints force teams to pass to keep up.

This is so flawed. Bunkley has played NT in the past in a 3-4 and did it well. Jay Ratliff of the Cowboys has played multiple years at NT at 300 pounds. In a 3-4 defense, we do not need our defensive ends to focus on collecting sacks.

TheOak · 02-26-2013, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by papz

This is so flawed. Bunkley has played NT in the past in a 3-4 and did it well. Jay Ratliff of the Cowboys has played multiple years at NT at 300 pounds. In a 3-4 defense, we do not need our defensive ends to focus on collecting sacks.

While Bunkley may have... The sacks comment didnt come from me... It came from Parcells, Pat Kerwan, Tim Ryan and Gil Brant....

I listened to the call yesteday, A Saints fan called in ans asked the specific question about the Saints and a 3-4 and that was what he was told... We do not have the people... by the experts... They did go on to say that any defensive coordinator interviewing for a job would say in the interview "sure I can"... Along with, while the Saints say they are running a 3-4 Ryan runs a 4-3, they line up at a 3-4 base but the LBs move and it will generally turn into a 4-3...

Flawed or not, I consider those guys experts.

And Dallas has switched back to a 4-3....
RTN: How Cowboys' Personnel Fits Monte Kiffen's 4-3 Defense

papz · 02-26-2013, 12:18 PM

You're certainly entitled to feel the way you do. I just think it's a pessemistic way to look at our 2013 season on defense.

Monte Kiffen has always run a 4-3 cover 2... no point in him staying in a 3-4. It's like asking a history teacher to teach a math class.

TheOak · 02-26-2013, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by papz

You're certainly entitled to feel the way you do. I just think it's a pessemistic way to look at our 2013 season on defense.

Monte Kiffen has always run a 4-3 cover 2... no point in him staying in a 3-4. It's like asking a history teacher to teach a math class.

Coaches generally teach Home Economics... or remedial math.

jeanpierre · 02-26-2013, 01:31 PM

We don't have the players we need for a successful 4-3 either; while Cam Jordan has moderately improved, do you really think opposing QB's feared our pass rush?!?

The only guy that made opposing QB's go "What the **** just hit me?" was Martez Wilson and that's because we rarely used him...

We've got to shake things up and get the players we need...

And in regards to your strengthen our strength idea, you are right as we need a FA wide receiver like Danario Alexander and a Left Tackle TBD; but here's the thing - we've got a tu-bloc Salary Cap situation right now and running back is where we've got some wealth to trade...

triman · 02-26-2013, 01:37 PM

Thanks for the info. IMHO we would be wise to load up on NT and rush LBS in this years draft deep in those positions

TheOak · 02-26-2013, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

We don't have the players we need for a successful 4-3 either; while Cam Jordan has moderately improved, do you really think opposing QB's feared our pass rush?!?

The only guy that made opposing QB's go "What the **** just hit me?" was Martez Wilson and that's because we rarely used him...

We've got to shake things up and get the players we need...

And in regards to your strengthen our strength idea, you are right as we need a FA wide receiver like Danario Alexander and a Left Tackle TBD; but here's the thing - we've got a tu-bloc Salary Cap situation right now and running back is where we've got some wealth to trade...

While Drew has damaged the cap.. I just realized that Vilma is an 8M cap hit this year? WTF?
Jonathan Vilma Contract, Salaries, and Transactions

Danno · 02-26-2013, 02:45 PM

Vilma played in a much different 3-4 in New York. It was a traditional 2-gap 3-4 that requires bigger ILB's to fight off the OG's, and that big fat ugly NT.

The 1-gap we'll be using is very similar to a 4-3. The DE's are just a shade further out with the NT lined up between the OC and OG.

Vilma will NOT be required to take on OG's any more than playing the WILL in a 4-3. Its almost the exact same position.

I also feel that we have more personnel that fit the 3-4 than we do that fit a 4-3.

TreyThomas · 02-26-2013, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

Vilma played in a much different 3-4 in New York. It was a traditional 2-gap 3-4 that requires bigger ILB's to fight off the OG's, and that big fat ugly NT.

The 1-gap we'll be using is very similar to a 4-3. The DE's are just a shade further out with the NT lined up between the OC and OG.

Vilma will NOT be required to take on OG's any more than playing the WILL in a 4-3. Its almost the exact same position.

I also feel that we have more personnel that fit the 3-4 than we do that fit a 4-3.

I feel the same. Bunkley and Cam Jordan are both 3-4 products to begin with. Bunkley did amazing in Denver, and it seems Denver took a step back this year without him, honestly. Jordan play 3-4 DE at CAL.

Our linebackers SURELY can't play any worse than they did this year, with the exception of Lofton. So I am really not seeing how we could take a step back by going to the 3-4. We were the worst defense in history.....

02-26-2013, 11:10 AM	#1
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Scheme or Players first? With all the talk about the Saints running a 3-4 and what we need to do in the draft, i did a little digging just so i could understand what 2013 would bring us. For those who would like a little more understanding about the 3-4 read this blog below. I will preface this with a quote from Bill Pacrells Bill Parcells once said he would not run his own 3-4 until he had all the players it needs. The advice from Bill Parcells: Don't rush! Bills go from 3-4 to 4-3 in measured fashion, and look formidable - NFL - CBSSports.com News, Rumors, Scores, Stats, Fantasy Understanding the 3-4 and its needs The 3-4 Defense: A Primer \| bruces1g's Football Blog \| FanNation.com I may be on my own on this one... However if your in a battle you have two options to win, defend your self or out attack your opponent. We are a good stretch from being able to defend our goal line adequately, so we need to pack more power into our offense. For those who were glad to see the Saints keep Vilma... He was released from the Jets because he was not a good fit for the 3-4. "It doesn't mean a trade is a certainty, but it's a tacit acknowledgement from both sides that Vilma and Mangini's 3-4 scheme aren't a match." Jonathan Vilma can fly away - NY Daily News 2013 is going to be ugly. We do not have the Nose Tackle needed, we do not have two DE that can garner 20 sacks... We need to stick to the 4-3 until we have the PEOPLE. We need to work on our dime and nickle since we will be in that 70% of the time anyway, the Saints force teams to pass to keep up.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

02-26-2013, 11:34 AM	#2
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,744	Re: Scheme or Players first? 2013 is going to be ugly. We do not have the Nose Tackle needed, we do not have two DE that can garner 20 sacks... We need to stick to the 4-3 until we have the PEOPLE. We need to work on our dime and nickle since we will be in that 70% of the time anyway, the Saints force teams to pass to keep up. This is so flawed. Bunkley has played NT in the past in a 3-4 and did it well. Jay Ratliff of the Cowboys has played multiple years at NT at 300 pounds. In a 3-4 defense, we do not need our defensive ends to focus on collecting sacks.

02-26-2013, 12:10 PM	#3
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Scheme or Players first? Originally Posted by papz This is so flawed. Bunkley has played NT in the past in a 3-4 and did it well. Jay Ratliff of the Cowboys has played multiple years at NT at 300 pounds. In a 3-4 defense, we do not need our defensive ends to focus on collecting sacks. While Bunkley may have... The sacks comment didnt come from me... It came from Parcells, Pat Kerwan, Tim Ryan and Gil Brant.... I listened to the call yesteday, A Saints fan called in ans asked the specific question about the Saints and a 3-4 and that was what he was told... We do not have the people... by the experts... They did go on to say that any defensive coordinator interviewing for a job would say in the interview "sure I can"... Along with, while the Saints say they are running a 3-4 Ryan runs a 4-3, they line up at a 3-4 base but the LBs move and it will generally turn into a 4-3... Flawed or not, I consider those guys experts. And Dallas has switched back to a 4-3.... RTN: How Cowboys' Personnel Fits Monte Kiffen's 4-3 Defense
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

02-26-2013, 12:18 PM	#4
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,744	Re: Scheme or Players first? You're certainly entitled to feel the way you do. I just think it's a pessemistic way to look at our 2013 season on defense. Monte Kiffen has always run a 4-3 cover 2... no point in him staying in a 3-4. It's like asking a history teacher to teach a math class. UK_WhoDat likes this.

02-26-2013, 12:22 PM	#5
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Scheme or Players first? Originally Posted by papz You're certainly entitled to feel the way you do. I just think it's a pessemistic way to look at our 2013 season on defense. Monte Kiffen has always run a 4-3 cover 2... no point in him staying in a 3-4. It's like asking a history teacher to teach a math class. Coaches generally teach Home Economics... or remedial math.

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02-26-2013, 01:31 PM	#6
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Scheme or Players first? We don't have the players we need for a successful 4-3 either; while Cam Jordan has moderately improved, do you really think opposing QB's feared our pass rush?!? The only guy that made opposing QB's go "What the **** just hit me?" was Martez Wilson and that's because we rarely used him... We've got to shake things up and get the players we need... And in regards to your strengthen our strength idea, you are right as we need a FA wide receiver like Danario Alexander and a Left Tackle TBD; but here's the thing - we've got a tu-bloc Salary Cap situation right now and running back is where we've got some wealth to trade...
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

02-26-2013, 01:37 PM	#7
triman 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 783	Re: Scheme or Players first? Thanks for the info. IMHO we would be wise to load up on NT and rush LBS in this years draft deep in those positions
triman 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 783

02-26-2013, 01:40 PM	#8
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Scheme or Players first? Originally Posted by jeanpierre We don't have the players we need for a successful 4-3 either; while Cam Jordan has moderately improved, do you really think opposing QB's feared our pass rush?!? The only guy that made opposing QB's go "What the **** just hit me?" was Martez Wilson and that's because we rarely used him... We've got to shake things up and get the players we need... And in regards to your strengthen our strength idea, you are right as we need a FA wide receiver like Danario Alexander and a Left Tackle TBD; but here's the thing - we've got a tu-bloc Salary Cap situation right now and running back is where we've got some wealth to trade... While Drew has damaged the cap.. I just realized that Vilma is an 8M cap hit this year? WTF? Jonathan Vilma Contract, Salaries, and Transactions

02-26-2013, 02:45 PM	#9
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Re: Scheme or Players first? Vilma played in a much different 3-4 in New York. It was a traditional 2-gap 3-4 that requires bigger ILB's to fight off the OG's, and that big fat ugly NT. The 1-gap we'll be using is very similar to a 4-3. The DE's are just a shade further out with the NT lined up between the OC and OG. Vilma will NOT be required to take on OG's any more than playing the WILL in a 4-3. Its almost the exact same position. I also feel that we have more personnel that fit the 3-4 than we do that fit a 4-3.

02-26-2013, 02:58 PM	#10
TreyThomas Registered Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 82	Re: Scheme or Players first? Originally Posted by Danno Vilma played in a much different 3-4 in New York. It was a traditional 2-gap 3-4 that requires bigger ILB's to fight off the OG's, and that big fat ugly NT. The 1-gap we'll be using is very similar to a 4-3. The DE's are just a shade further out with the NT lined up between the OC and OG. Vilma will NOT be required to take on OG's any more than playing the WILL in a 4-3. Its almost the exact same position. I also feel that we have more personnel that fit the 3-4 than we do that fit a 4-3. I feel the same. Bunkley and Cam Jordan are both 3-4 products to begin with. Bunkley did amazing in Denver, and it seems Denver took a step back this year without him, honestly. Jordan play 3-4 DE at CAL. Our linebackers SURELY can't play any worse than they did this year, with the exception of Lofton. So I am really not seeing how we could take a step back by going to the 3-4. We were the worst defense in history.....
TreyThomas Registered Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 82

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