Sedrick Ellis in contact with Saints

Danno · 04-14-2013, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Seer1

How is he certainly worth the vet minimum?

Before the Spags disaster, he had 137 tackles, 12-1/2 sacks, 13 Passes defended and 2 forced fumbles in 54 games.

That equates to roughly 34 tackles, 3 sacks and 3 PD's per season

Thats great for vet minimum.

burningmetal · 04-14-2013, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Before the Spags disaster, he had 137 tackles, 12-1/2 sacks, 13 Passes defended and 2 forced fumbles in 54 games.

That equates to roughly 34 tackles, 3 sacks and 3 PD's per season

Thats great for vet minimum.

Those numbers aren't very good, but for vet minimum, sure. Problem is this... His decline (hard to think of a guy declining when he wasn't doing much in the first place, but still) began the year before Spags.

What is it with everyone who stinks it up somehow being shrugged off on Spagnuolo. I suppose Drew's interceptions, and Jimmy's drops were Spags' fault too. The guy got one season with a bunch of aging players, and young guys who hadn't been successful before, and some people just don't want to believe that maybe we have some bad players. We have some young, raw talent in the front seven who have a chance to be really good. But Payton wanted to change to the 3-4, and frankly, I've been barking up that tree for years. Can't blame him for making the change, and it's hard to blame it all on Spags when he had limited time to work with these guys.

Spagnuolo failed in that he couldn't improve upon what he had, which is his job regardless of circumstance, and for that he deserves some blame. But what really did he have? Let's be realistic.

|Mitch| · 04-14-2013, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

what really did he have? Let's be realistic.

Funny, GW had the same players and when he played them to their strengths we had a somewhat respectable defense...

burningmetal · 04-16-2013, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by |Mitch|

Funny, GW had the same players and when he played them to their strengths we had a somewhat respectable defense...

We did not have a somewhat respectable defense. That's pretty absurd. Haven't had one since '09, when we had Sharper and much younger versions of Will Smith, Jabari Greer, Jonathon Vilma and Tracy Porter.

You could maybe (I stress maybe) say that the '10 defense was somewhat adequate, and yet it was not good enough to keep a horrible Seattle offense from scoring 41 in the playoffs, when our offense had to scratch and claw to score 36 without several key players.

Steve Spagnuolo was not hired to come in and run a "GW" all or nothing style defense. He was hired to run HIS system, which brings me back to my original question... What really did he have? He got one year and almost no talent, with the exceptions being the young and unproven Junior Galette, Martez Wilson, and Cam Jordan (Jordan not being known for pass rushing prowess).

No coordinator looks good without good players. Williams runs the same system everywhere he goes, and his success has always depended on his available talent. But some systems work better than others. The Saints decided that GW's wasn't working anymore (they weren't wrong), and brought in Spagnuolo. He needed front four depth to make his four man rush work, yet he didn't even have quality starters.

Now that I've answered my own question, feel free to explain how I'm wrong.

Joker · 04-16-2013, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

We did not have a somewhat respectable defense. That's pretty absurd. Haven't had one since '09, when we had Sharper and much younger versions of Will Smith, Jabari Greer, Jonathon Vilma and Tracy Porter.

You could maybe (I stress maybe) say that the '10 defense was somewhat adequate, and yet it was not good enough to keep a horrible Seattle offense from scoring 41 in the playoffs, when our offense had to scratch and claw to score 36 without several key players.

Steve Spagnuolo was not hired to come in and run a "GW" all or nothing style defense. He was hired to run HIS system, which brings me back to my original question... What really did he have? He got one year and almost no talent, with the exceptions being the young and unproven Junior Galette, Martez Wilson, and Cam Jordan (Jordan not being known for pass rushing prowess).

No coordinator looks good without good players. Williams runs the same system everywhere he goes, and his success has always depended on his available talent. But some systems work better than others. The Saints decided that GW's wasn't working anymore (they weren't wrong), and brought in Spagnuolo. He needed front four depth to make his four man rush work, yet he didn't even have quality starters.

Now that I've answered my own question, feel free to explain how I'm wrong.

Defending Spagdontknowdefense, no matter how bad the defense was in past years regardless of the circumstances it never set an NFL record for the all time worse defense. OMG, how can you defend this guy?
He had no credentials to speak of as a DC except for the Giant's, anyone on this forum could have coached that defense, loaded from front to back, side to side, top to bottom.REALLY!!!!!!!!!
I've agreed with most of the things you wrote but not when it comes to Spagdontknowdefense, HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Danno · 04-16-2013, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Joker

Defending Spagdontknowdefense, no matter how bad the defense was in past years regardless of the circumstances it never set an NFL record for the all time worse defense. OMG, how can you defend this guy?
He had no credentials to speak of as a DC except for the Giant's, anyone on this forum could have coached that defense, loaded from front to back, side to side, top to bottom.REALLY!!!!!!!!!
I've agreed with most of the things you wrote but not when it comes to Spagdontknowdefense, HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!

We did have some holes, but I'd guess talent wise we were probably middle of the pack.

I'd say the 2012 disaster was 80% on Spags and his system, and 20% on talent.

Joker · 04-16-2013, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

We did have some holes, but I'd guess talent wise we were probably middle of the pack.

I'd say the 2012 disaster was 80% on Spags and his system, and 20% on talent.

I can agree with that assessment, don't really agree with your opinion on big twinkie (Ellis) but it's yours and you're entitled to it.

burningmetal · 04-17-2013, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Joker

Defending Spagdontknowdefense, no matter how bad the defense was in past years regardless of the circumstances it never set an NFL record for the all time worse defense. OMG, how can you defend this guy?
He had no credentials to speak of as a DC except for the Giant's, anyone on this forum could have coached that defense, loaded from front to back, side to side, top to bottom.REALLY!!!!!!!!!
I've agreed with most of the things you wrote but not when it comes to Spagdontknowdefense, HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!

No disrespect man, but you should go a little further back in this thread to see where I'm coming from. I said he failed to make the defense better, which is what he's supposed to do no matter the circumstance, and he deserves blame for that. The whole reason I'm talking about him is because I'm tired of everyone defending poor player performance and putting it all on him. Most of these players were already bad, or on a severe decline (i.e Smith, Vilma, Greer).

There's no excuse for being the worst defense in the history of the league. But these weren't Spags' players, and giving him one year to work with them (plus, an historically horrific off-season) didn't help him. I'm fine with the change the Saints made. I'm just not fine with people acting like these players weren't bad to begin with.

I disagree that Spags had no credentials of coaching defense outside of New York. He had very respectable defenses in St. Louis with less talent (you might remember what they did to us in '11).

And while no one denies the front 4 talent he had in New York, they haven't been the same since he left, and have had basically the exact same rotation, minus Strahan who was at that point probably their 3rd best lineman. What talent did they have past the defensive line? That team started the year horribly, couldn't cover a sleeping baby with a blanket, and he made some adjustments that completely turned them around. I surely didn't say Steve did a GOOD job here. I'm saying stop pawning everything off on him.

FinSaint · 04-17-2013, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

I surely didn't say Steve did a GOOD job here. I'm saying stop pawning everything off on him.

I couldn't agree more with that sentiment.

04-14-2013, 08:58 AM	#1
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,758	Re: Sedrick Ellis in contact with Saints Originally Posted by Seer1 How is he certainly worth the vet minimum? Before the Spags disaster, he had 137 tackles, 12-1/2 sacks, 13 Passes defended and 2 forced fumbles in 54 games. That equates to roughly 34 tackles, 3 sacks and 3 PD's per season Thats great for vet minimum.

04-14-2013, 10:53 AM	#2
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Sedrick Ellis in contact with Saints Originally Posted by Danno Before the Spags disaster, he had 137 tackles, 12-1/2 sacks, 13 Passes defended and 2 forced fumbles in 54 games. That equates to roughly 34 tackles, 3 sacks and 3 PD's per season Thats great for vet minimum. Those numbers aren't very good, but for vet minimum, sure. Problem is this... His decline (hard to think of a guy declining when he wasn't doing much in the first place, but still) began the year before Spags. What is it with everyone who stinks it up somehow being shrugged off on Spagnuolo. I suppose Drew's interceptions, and Jimmy's drops were Spags' fault too. The guy got one season with a bunch of aging players, and young guys who hadn't been successful before, and some people just don't want to believe that maybe we have some bad players. We have some young, raw talent in the front seven who have a chance to be really good. But Payton wanted to change to the 3-4, and frankly, I've been barking up that tree for years. Can't blame him for making the change, and it's hard to blame it all on Spags when he had limited time to work with these guys. Spagnuolo failed in that he couldn't improve upon what he had, which is his job regardless of circumstance, and for that he deserves some blame. But what really did he have? Let's be realistic. K Major likes this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

04-14-2013, 11:11 AM	#3
\|Mitch\| 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Alexandria, La Posts: 11,303	Re: Sedrick Ellis in contact with Saints Originally Posted by burningmetal what really did he have? Let's be realistic. Funny, GW had the same players and when he played them to their strengths we had a somewhat respectable defense...

04-16-2013, 09:14 AM	#4
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Sedrick Ellis in contact with Saints Originally Posted by \|Mitch\| Funny, GW had the same players and when he played them to their strengths we had a somewhat respectable defense... We did not have a somewhat respectable defense. That's pretty absurd. Haven't had one since '09, when we had Sharper and much younger versions of Will Smith, Jabari Greer, Jonathon Vilma and Tracy Porter. You could maybe (I stress maybe) say that the '10 defense was somewhat adequate, and yet it was not good enough to keep a horrible Seattle offense from scoring 41 in the playoffs, when our offense had to scratch and claw to score 36 without several key players. Steve Spagnuolo was not hired to come in and run a "GW" all or nothing style defense. He was hired to run HIS system, which brings me back to my original question... What really did he have? He got one year and almost no talent, with the exceptions being the young and unproven Junior Galette, Martez Wilson, and Cam Jordan (Jordan not being known for pass rushing prowess). No coordinator looks good without good players. Williams runs the same system everywhere he goes, and his success has always depended on his available talent. But some systems work better than others. The Saints decided that GW's wasn't working anymore (they weren't wrong), and brought in Spagnuolo. He needed front four depth to make his four man rush work, yet he didn't even have quality starters. Now that I've answered my own question, feel free to explain how I'm wrong.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

04-16-2013, 12:00 PM	#5
Joker Site Donor Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Lafayette Posts: 408 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Sedrick Ellis in contact with Saints Originally Posted by burningmetal We did not have a somewhat respectable defense. That's pretty absurd. Haven't had one since '09, when we had Sharper and much younger versions of Will Smith, Jabari Greer, Jonathon Vilma and Tracy Porter. You could maybe (I stress maybe) say that the '10 defense was somewhat adequate, and yet it was not good enough to keep a horrible Seattle offense from scoring 41 in the playoffs, when our offense had to scratch and claw to score 36 without several key players. Steve Spagnuolo was not hired to come in and run a "GW" all or nothing style defense. He was hired to run HIS system, which brings me back to my original question... What really did he have? He got one year and almost no talent, with the exceptions being the young and unproven Junior Galette, Martez Wilson, and Cam Jordan (Jordan not being known for pass rushing prowess). No coordinator looks good without good players. Williams runs the same system everywhere he goes, and his success has always depended on his available talent. But some systems work better than others. The Saints decided that GW's wasn't working anymore (they weren't wrong), and brought in Spagnuolo. He needed front four depth to make his four man rush work, yet he didn't even have quality starters. Now that I've answered my own question, feel free to explain how I'm wrong. Defending Spagdontknowdefense, no matter how bad the defense was in past years regardless of the circumstances it never set an NFL record for the all time worse defense. OMG, how can you defend this guy? He had no credentials to speak of as a DC except for the Giant's, anyone on this forum could have coached that defense, loaded from front to back, side to side, top to bottom.REALLY!!!!!!!!! I've agreed with most of the things you wrote but not when it comes to Spagdontknowdefense, HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!

04-16-2013, 12:22 PM	#6
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,758	Re: Sedrick Ellis in contact with Saints Originally Posted by Joker Defending Spagdontknowdefense, no matter how bad the defense was in past years regardless of the circumstances it never set an NFL record for the all time worse defense. OMG, how can you defend this guy? He had no credentials to speak of as a DC except for the Giant's, anyone on this forum could have coached that defense, loaded from front to back, side to side, top to bottom.REALLY!!!!!!!!! I've agreed with most of the things you wrote but not when it comes to Spagdontknowdefense, HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!! We did have some holes, but I'd guess talent wise we were probably middle of the pack. I'd say the 2012 disaster was 80% on Spags and his system, and 20% on talent. Joker likes this.

04-16-2013, 12:27 PM	#7
Joker Site Donor Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Lafayette Posts: 408 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Sedrick Ellis in contact with Saints Originally Posted by Danno We did have some holes, but I'd guess talent wise we were probably middle of the pack. I'd say the 2012 disaster was 80% on Spags and his system, and 20% on talent. I can agree with that assessment, don't really agree with your opinion on big twinkie (Ellis) but it's yours and you're entitled to it.

04-17-2013, 07:44 AM	#8
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Sedrick Ellis in contact with Saints Originally Posted by Joker Defending Spagdontknowdefense, no matter how bad the defense was in past years regardless of the circumstances it never set an NFL record for the all time worse defense. OMG, how can you defend this guy? He had no credentials to speak of as a DC except for the Giant's, anyone on this forum could have coached that defense, loaded from front to back, side to side, top to bottom.REALLY!!!!!!!!! I've agreed with most of the things you wrote but not when it comes to Spagdontknowdefense, HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!! No disrespect man, but you should go a little further back in this thread to see where I'm coming from. I said he failed to make the defense better, which is what he's supposed to do no matter the circumstance, and he deserves blame for that. The whole reason I'm talking about him is because I'm tired of everyone defending poor player performance and putting it all on him. Most of these players were already bad, or on a severe decline (i.e Smith, Vilma, Greer). There's no excuse for being the worst defense in the history of the league. But these weren't Spags' players, and giving him one year to work with them (plus, an historically horrific off-season) didn't help him. I'm fine with the change the Saints made. I'm just not fine with people acting like these players weren't bad to begin with. I disagree that Spags had no credentials of coaching defense outside of New York. He had very respectable defenses in St. Louis with less talent (you might remember what they did to us in '11). And while no one denies the front 4 talent he had in New York, they haven't been the same since he left, and have had basically the exact same rotation, minus Strahan who was at that point probably their 3rd best lineman. What talent did they have past the defensive line? That team started the year horribly, couldn't cover a sleeping baby with a blanket, and he made some adjustments that completely turned them around. I surely didn't say Steve did a GOOD job here. I'm saying stop pawning everything off on him. papz, FinSaint, Utah_Saint and 1 others like this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

04-17-2013, 08:13 AM	#9
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,963	Re: Sedrick Ellis in contact with Saints Originally Posted by burningmetal I surely didn't say Steve did a GOOD job here. I'm saying stop pawning everything off on him. I couldn't agree more with that sentiment.

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