Do playmakers overcome coaching

WillSaints81 · 04-24-2013, 11:19 PM

I mean on defense if you have a ball hawk, can he still be that without the defensive coaching. The saints players need a coach to help them play better defensively? But I get tired of hearing how the bears defense will be okay without Lovie and Urlacher because they have good defensive players.

And on offense, because Boldin went and grabbed balls, its assumed that it doesnt matter what defense shows up, its like they can make plays anytime they want to. Whats the point of even having a decent defense if this is the case right? People act like Boldin is just gonna jump and grab passes because he's Boldin.

It does make me feel we need physical big name bodies. Because Idk if Colston is a receiver that cooperates with Brees or if he jumps up and catches any passes that are tough to catch. Or do we need to start going after big name defenders that can make our defense pop. I mean, not by leadership, but by his raw talent that will get everyone playing hard. I mean if coaching isnt necessary.

Danno · 04-24-2013, 11:30 PM

Overcome coaching?

Put Urlacher at DE and he'll fail.

Put Ray Lewis at CB and he'll fail.

Put a man CB in a zone scheme and he won't succeed.

Put a SS in a two-deep system and he'll fail, just like Polamalu did when asked to play deep.

Put a scat back at fullback and watch him fail.

Match up a LB with Randy Moss in his prime, which we did, and watch the embarrassment.

WillSaints81 · 04-24-2013, 11:36 PM

yeah but Pats are a little different. Moss may have not been the same great receiver at that point. But I'm just looking at what Boldin did in the playoffs. Also I didnt mean change positions or put them in different schemes. i just meant without a DC's playbook or play calling.

Leighton B · 04-25-2013, 01:18 AM

No we need schemes in today's NFL without hard hits and without any type of intimidation factor for going over the middle or even QBs can hold the ball longer because they know guys can't come in there all out or they might get flagged or fined for breathing hard on a QB lol! Since all these rules are to benefit the Offense! You used to have to worry about getting your ass knocked off if you dared to go over the middle or even on these zone read plays no way they'd be effective if old aggressive rules were in play QBs would beg to stop running the ball! SO AS A DEFENSE NOW YOU HAVE TO CREATE CONFUSION OR DISGUISES TO HELP YOUR DEFENSE FOOL THE QB's READ OR EVEN CHECK HIM INTO A PLAY YOU WANT HIM TO CHECK INTO LIKE SHOW COVERAGE THEN RIGHT AS THE BALL SNAPS YOUR LBs and SS ARE COMING DOWN PLUGGING GAPS! SO YES SCHEMES ARE NEEDED! Also I believe if your just a better team and you know that you can stop them without the extra movement it probably does keep guys fresher and a little faster to react if they are positioned already in the right spots, but IF YOUR GOING UP AGAINST AN ELITE QB YOU BETTER BE READY TO DISGUISE YOUR DEFENSE OUR YOU'LL GET PICKED APART!

lee909 · 04-25-2013, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by Leighton B

No we need schemes in today's NFL without hard hits and without any type of intimidation factor for going over the middle or even QBs can hold the ball longer because they know guys can't come in there all out or they might get flagged or fined for breathing hard on a QB lol! Since all these rules are to benefit the Offense! You used to have to worry about getting your ass knocked off if you dared to go over the middle or even on these zone read plays no way they'd be effective if old aggressive rules were in play QBs would beg to stop running the ball! SO AS A DEFENSE NOW YOU HAVE TO CREATE CONFUSION OR DISGUISES TO HELP YOUR DEFENSE FOOL THE QB's READ OR EVEN CHECK HIM INTO A PLAY YOU WANT HIM TO CHECK INTO LIKE SHOW COVERAGE THEN RIGHT AS THE BALL SNAPS YOUR LBs and SS ARE COMING DOWN PLUGGING GAPS! SO YES SCHEMES ARE NEEDED! Also I believe if your just a better team and you know that you can stop them without the extra movement it probably does keep guys fresher and a little faster to react if they are positioned already in the right spots, but IF YOUR GOING UP AGAINST AN ELITE QB YOU BETTER BE READY TO DISGUISE YOUR DEFENSE OUR YOU'LL GET PICKED APART!

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Seer1 · 04-25-2013, 08:32 AM

It can, but there are still ten other guys who are contributing also. The ball hawk needs pressure on the QB. No one can defend a perfectly thrown pass. The sack monster needs the secondary to buy him that extra split second. Where the play maker really effects a team is when he's dinged up. Look at Seau in the Superbowl. He only had one arm, couldn't tackle but still was in there. It hurt the team. It's nice to have 'the guy" but it really sucks when you don't. If you have the coaching then you're not dependent on one player.

Jamessr · 04-25-2013, 09:17 AM

Playmakers are as good as the other 10 players around them.

dizzle88 · 04-25-2013, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Leighton B

No we need schemes in today's NFL without hard hits and without any type of intimidation factor for going over the middle or even QBs can hold the ball longer because they know guys can't come in there all out or they might get flagged or fined for breathing hard on a QB lol! Since all these rules are to benefit the Offense! You used to have to worry about getting your ass knocked off if you dared to go over the middle or even on these zone read plays no way they'd be effective if old aggressive rules were in play QBs would beg to stop running the ball! SO AS A DEFENSE NOW YOU HAVE TO CREATE CONFUSION OR DISGUISES TO HELP YOUR DEFENSE FOOL THE QB's READ OR EVEN CHECK HIM INTO A PLAY YOU WANT HIM TO CHECK INTO LIKE SHOW COVERAGE THEN RIGHT AS THE BALL SNAPS YOUR LBs and SS ARE COMING DOWN PLUGGING GAPS! SO YES SCHEMES ARE NEEDED! Also I believe if your just a better team and you know that you can stop them without the extra movement it probably does keep guys fresher and a little faster to react if they are positioned already in the right spots, but IF YOUR GOING UP AGAINST AN ELITE QB YOU BETTER BE READY TO DISGUISE YOUR DEFENSE OUR YOU'LL GET PICKED APART!

Dude, we respect you have your opinion and and we all have ours, some opinions may not match but we respect them all the same. But with the CAPS thing, people just aren't going to read your comments which would be a shame because I think you have some great points

Danno · 04-25-2013, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

Dude, we respect you have your opinion and and we all have ours, some opinions may not match but we respect them all the same. But with the CAPS thing, people just aren't going to read your comments which would be a shame because I think you have some great points

It was so annoying I had to place him on ignore. But he's been told numerous times so he has only himself to blame.

Jamessr · 04-25-2013, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

But with the CAPS thing, people just aren't going to read your comments which would be a shame because I think you have some great points

I know I ignore them

04-24-2013, 11:19 PM	#1
WillSaints81 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,267	Do playmakers overcome coaching I mean on defense if you have a ball hawk, can he still be that without the defensive coaching. The saints players need a coach to help them play better defensively? But I get tired of hearing how the bears defense will be okay without Lovie and Urlacher because they have good defensive players. And on offense, because Boldin went and grabbed balls, its assumed that it doesnt matter what defense shows up, its like they can make plays anytime they want to. Whats the point of even having a decent defense if this is the case right? People act like Boldin is just gonna jump and grab passes because he's Boldin. It does make me feel we need physical big name bodies. Because Idk if Colston is a receiver that cooperates with Brees or if he jumps up and catches any passes that are tough to catch. Or do we need to start going after big name defenders that can make our defense pop. I mean, not by leadership, but by his raw talent that will get everyone playing hard. I mean if coaching isnt necessary.

04-24-2013, 11:30 PM	#2
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Re: Do playmakers overcome coaching Overcome coaching? Put Urlacher at DE and he'll fail. Put Ray Lewis at CB and he'll fail. Put a man CB in a zone scheme and he won't succeed. Put a SS in a two-deep system and he'll fail, just like Polamalu did when asked to play deep. Put a scat back at fullback and watch him fail. Match up a LB with Randy Moss in his prime, which we did, and watch the embarrassment.

04-24-2013, 11:36 PM	#3
WillSaints81 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,267	Re: Do playmakers overcome coaching yeah but Pats are a little different. Moss may have not been the same great receiver at that point. But I'm just looking at what Boldin did in the playoffs. Also I didnt mean change positions or put them in different schemes. i just meant without a DC's playbook or play calling.

04-25-2013, 01:18 AM	#4
Leighton B 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 160	Re: Do playmakers overcome coaching No we need schemes in today's NFL without hard hits and without any type of intimidation factor for going over the middle or even QBs can hold the ball longer because they know guys can't come in there all out or they might get flagged or fined for breathing hard on a QB lol! Since all these rules are to benefit the Offense! You used to have to worry about getting your ass knocked off if you dared to go over the middle or even on these zone read plays no way they'd be effective if old aggressive rules were in play QBs would beg to stop running the ball! SO AS A DEFENSE NOW YOU HAVE TO CREATE CONFUSION OR DISGUISES TO HELP YOUR DEFENSE FOOL THE QB's READ OR EVEN CHECK HIM INTO A PLAY YOU WANT HIM TO CHECK INTO LIKE SHOW COVERAGE THEN RIGHT AS THE BALL SNAPS YOUR LBs and SS ARE COMING DOWN PLUGGING GAPS! SO YES SCHEMES ARE NEEDED! Also I believe if your just a better team and you know that you can stop them without the extra movement it probably does keep guys fresher and a little faster to react if they are positioned already in the right spots, but IF YOUR GOING UP AGAINST AN ELITE QB YOU BETTER BE READY TO DISGUISE YOUR DEFENSE OUR YOU'LL GET PICKED APART!
Leighton B 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 160

04-25-2013, 08:32 AM	#6
Seer1 Site Donor Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Bayou Bayfield CO Posts: 4,722	Re: Do playmakers overcome coaching It can, but there are still ten other guys who are contributing also. The ball hawk needs pressure on the QB. No one can defend a perfectly thrown pass. The sack monster needs the secondary to buy him that extra split second. Where the play maker really effects a team is when he's dinged up. Look at Seau in the Superbowl. He only had one arm, couldn't tackle but still was in there. It hurt the team. It's nice to have 'the guy" but it really sucks when you don't. If you have the coaching then you're not dependent on one player.
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04-25-2013, 09:17 AM	#7
Jamessr 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Newport News, VA Posts: 1,583	Re: Do playmakers overcome coaching Playmakers are as good as the other 10 players around them.

04-25-2013, 09:34 AM	#8
dizzle88 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 11,208	Re: Do playmakers overcome coaching Originally Posted by Leighton B No we need schemes in today's NFL without hard hits and without any type of intimidation factor for going over the middle or even QBs can hold the ball longer because they know guys can't come in there all out or they might get flagged or fined for breathing hard on a QB lol! Since all these rules are to benefit the Offense! You used to have to worry about getting your ass knocked off if you dared to go over the middle or even on these zone read plays no way they'd be effective if old aggressive rules were in play QBs would beg to stop running the ball! SO AS A DEFENSE NOW YOU HAVE TO CREATE CONFUSION OR DISGUISES TO HELP YOUR DEFENSE FOOL THE QB's READ OR EVEN CHECK HIM INTO A PLAY YOU WANT HIM TO CHECK INTO LIKE SHOW COVERAGE THEN RIGHT AS THE BALL SNAPS YOUR LBs and SS ARE COMING DOWN PLUGGING GAPS! SO YES SCHEMES ARE NEEDED! Also I believe if your just a better team and you know that you can stop them without the extra movement it probably does keep guys fresher and a little faster to react if they are positioned already in the right spots, but IF YOUR GOING UP AGAINST AN ELITE QB YOU BETTER BE READY TO DISGUISE YOUR DEFENSE OUR YOU'LL GET PICKED APART! Dude, we respect you have your opinion and and we all have ours, some opinions may not match but we respect them all the same. But with the CAPS thing, people just aren't going to read your comments which would be a shame because I think you have some great points UK_WhoDat, Danno, lsutigerfan and 1 others like this.

04-25-2013, 09:37 AM	#9
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Re: Do playmakers overcome coaching Originally Posted by dizzle88 Dude, we respect you have your opinion and and we all have ours, some opinions may not match but we respect them all the same. But with the CAPS thing, people just aren't going to read your comments which would be a shame because I think you have some great points It was so annoying I had to place him on ignore. But he's been told numerous times so he has only himself to blame.

04-25-2013, 09:38 AM	#10
Jamessr 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Newport News, VA Posts: 1,583	Re: Do playmakers overcome coaching Originally Posted by dizzle88 But with the CAPS thing, people just aren't going to read your comments which would be a shame because I think you have some great points I know I ignore them

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