Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

As some of you have noted, the NFL has shifted to Sarcastaball about 5 years ago. If you want an aggressive defense, go to Florida and employ the stand your ground laws. Otherwise, enjoy the dilution and stop *****ing.

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

And we had basically those same players the three years before that. Yet the Saints averaged 34 sacks a year from 2009-2011. The scheme changed last year.

The Saints were a top 10 defense less than 3 years ago. And this is with the same base personnel.
I understand your frustration. I don't think that it is satisfaction. I believe it's understanding the reality of the constraints of today's NFL. As I pointed out before literally to get the defense you want, we would have had to not resign Brees to his $100+ million contract. That would have a catastrophic devastation for the franchise.

At the end of the day, the objective is neither to have epic offense or defense. The objective is to be the team hoisting the Lombardi in the end. Pittsburg has been #1 or #2 in scoring defense for the last decade. Yet they have not won every SuperBowl, have not won it in 5 years now, and did not make the playoffs last year.

Same for offense. Saints were #2 in both scoring and yards last year, and have been in the top 5 virtually every year of Payton's tenure. Yet we only have one trophy so far to show for it.

So my question isn't do we have epic offense or epic defense. My question is do we have the elements to put together a run to the trophy this year?

Ryan's scheme is closer to William's. The 3-4 looks fits our existing personnel better. The defense has time to gel as the offense pretty much starts the team with a 24 point lead on a consistent basis. If the defense can simply succeed in holding the opposition down in scoring, and get a couple of takeaways per game, then the team will be successful.

SFIAH

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

like I said before take the hit bring in some rookie that maybe able to surprise and cut our losses. we know what we are getting from those guys which isn't much give somebody else a shot

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

You don't understand, they will still have dead money next year as well. You do understand that the signing bonus is prorated, right?

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

I guess I don't get the cap cause this isn't the NBA where contracts are guaranteed

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

I think the leaders are Lofton, Jenkins, and Cam Jordan. In that order.

Forgive me for piling on but why are we digging graves for anyone in the Saints organization before the season even starts?

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

Just an example, but Brees still has 29 million in dead money left out of his 60 million guaranteed. So if we cut him today we'd still have to pay him that 29 million.

Will Smith has 7.8 million left in dead money

Harper= 6.5 million

Hawthorne = 7 million

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

It was just a question considering we have had 3 different DC in 3 yrs I really didn't intend for it to get this blown out of proportion. I stated in the beginning I was giving Rob the benefit of the doubt but if he didn't turn it around and were to make a change I would like to see them go after Lovie Smith who I thought at the time would have been a better choice

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

But at the same time, you have to give a coordinator 2-3 years when they are going through a complete scheme change...

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

I was never calling for the ax to fall on Rob
I don't get why Spags wasn't given more than a yr though

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

My thoughts are that the giving up the most yards in history + he supposedly lost the locker room + he was trying to force a press zone scheme when we have man corners who didn't excel in press?

Not to mention that his whole scheme was reliant on getting pressure with the front 4 and that just didn't work. He didn't try to play to their strengths

And

Payton wanted to move to the 3-4, he's been signing for the 3-4 for a couple of years, Bunkley, Jordan, Hicks, Jenkins,

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

Believe me, I would love to get rid of Jenkins, Vilma, and Chamberlin. Hawthorn, Coleman and Harper I would keep,Smith is on I.R. and will not be here next year at all but the other 3 in particular Jenkins and Vilma have not played well for years and I have said it time and time again needed to go for sometimes now. Also if the Chargers can release Meachum and take a hit I feel we could also. I feel your pain but that's been typical throughout the years here, we keep players that are well past their prime or in Jenkins case just the plain stupid. Kind of like when you went to school and the teacher had their favorite pet.

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

It seems that you focus on the style as opposed to the substance. Yes the Saints running game was crappy last year. It has no always been though. The Saints have had a top 10 rushing attack in the last few years. Payton actually understands that the offense gets better when the running game is working.

As for Thomas and attempts, the answer is twofold. First and foremost, running back by committee with multiple personnel packages is a staple of Payton's offense. The objective is not to line up in the I formation and pound the defense. That's what's going to give you a 20 rush attempt per game rusher.

The second is more pointed. You quote 5 YPC for Thomas. Brees yards per attempt, not completions but attempts, has been 8.0 or better 4 times and never less than 7.0 in his entire tenure in New Orleans.

Another point is that Pierre's screen game (and it looks like the emerging one for Ingram) delivers a lot of impact even though they are not considered rushes.

I'm sorry you are frustrated. I am actually enjoying the discussion. But honestly you are asking for a complete reworking of the franchise when recent history shows that the current basic configuration of this franchise has achieved quite a bit of success in the last 7 years: 4 10+ win seasons, 2 NFC championship appearances, 4 playoff appearances, 1 Championship.

The defense is a concern. If we had a consistent defense that could get off the field, not give up the big play, stand tough in the red zone, and take the ball away, then we'd be a contender to run away with the trophy. We are not there.

My point will continue to be that while the 2009 Saints defense clearly isn't a championship defense. Yet, that defense won the championship.

Can we get there again?

SFIAH

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

I am going to try and help you so please read this a few times if you need to, a lot of these conversations have been hashed out a dozen times....

You CAN'T take the hits to cut those people. It's not that you don't want to, you can't and stay under the cap.

Ill run you through some quick numbers just on Roman Harper.
Pay 3.6M
Dead money if cut this year 6.5M

So by cutting Harper you have cut our remaining cap space from 5M to 2M.

Then you cut smith same scenario but frees up 700k so now you have 2.3M to find a starting replacements for both and nothing to spend when the next player gets hurt.

You also do not have enough money to field a practice squad.

Read this it will help.
http://nflsalarycapguru.com/


Dead Money is prorated bonus that accelerates to the year cut.

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

Thank You

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

I wish I could go back and not have ever started this thread. I'm sure most of you do as well

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

Don't be, you have opinions, I have opinions, everyone does.... We don't all agree all the time, I get checked regularly trust me... I try and do a little homework before I post "most of the time".

After you've been here long enough you'll get a feel for the personalities and the same person that checked a statement of yours 2 minutes ago" likes" something you post somewhere else....

We are more like family here that school yard bullies. If you call BS on something I say I'll take it as brotherly love. :)

So, enjoy B&G, have a thick skin, and in time you'll understand why this is the only place you want to come.


Who Dat!

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

Understanding the salary cap is actually quite interesting. When you start going into LTBE and NLTBE bonuses and how they affect rollover cap as well, then it starts to get REALLY interesting....

Did I just go nerd? :)

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

I'm proud! Did you also know if you finish the season $5M under the cap it carries over to next year and can offset someone's increase (Drewcough)

:)

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

OK. So let's do NFL Capology 101.

NFL Salaries are divided into three components:

1. Signing Bonus (Guaranteed)
2. Annual Salary (not Guaranteed)
3. Other (depends on the contract). This includes option money, workout bonuses, incentives and the like.

#2 always counts against the cap the year that it is paid. If the player is no longer on the team when this money comes up, it does not count against the cap.

#1 is paid when the contract is signed. Short of breech of contract, the player gets to keep the money no matter what. Since this often is a large percentage of the contract, if it had to count against the cap the year it was paid, then the cap would be destroyed quickly. So League rules allows for that bonus to count against the cap in installments over the life of the contract.

#3 may or not me guaranteed. Typically guaranteed dollars are divided like the signing bonus while non guaranteed dollars count against the cap the year they are paid.

Now there are a couple of exceptions. First is #3 guaranteed dollars. They become guaranteed when they are paid. However if the player is released before those option dollars are paid, the team isn't responsible for those dollars against the cap.

The second item is that the guaranteed signing bonus from #1 payments against the cap are accelerated if the player is released before the end of the contract. Instead of paying out the money over the term of the original contract, the money counts against the cap for only 2 years: the current year and the next one.

Note that the league year starts in the first week in March after the SuperBowl. So any players who are still on the roster at the start of the league year will count.

If you read the rules above you will find that it is possible for a player who is released to still count for a significant amount of money against the cap for up to two years. This money is called Dead Money. It cannot be spent on another player, yet the player it counts against is no longer on your squad.

Both the player and the team are incentivized by signing bonuses. The player gets the guaranteed money now. The team gets to spread out the cost of that money over the length of the contract.

The team is incentivized for #2 since it's not guaranteed and it doesn't count against the cap until the league year it is paid. So contracts often will have huge salaries on the back end of the contract. It's money that both the team and player know will likely never be paid in the stated form as it'll kill the team's caps in those years. So before then, the player is released if they are no longer productive, or restructures their contract to a new signing bonus and a much lower salary moving forward.

Now #3 is a chess match. The player wants options to become guaranteed early and often. The team however wants to push back options so they can see if the player is productive enough to be worth the investment of guaranteed dollars.

So for example let's take a player with an 6 year $48 million contract with a $18 million signing bonus, a $6 million option payment in year 4, and salaries of $1, $3, $3, $3, $6, and $8 million salary in years 1-6.

First off the realistic value of the contract is about $23-32 million. The $18 million and the first three years of salary will be paid. If the player is still productive after the first three years, then the $6 option payment and $3 salary will be added in year 4. It is likely that the last $14 million in the last two years will never be paid as structured.

So what's the cap hit? Well $18/6 = $3 million per year. If the option bonus is paid in year 4, then it is divided among the remaining 3 years. So $6/3 = $2 million for the last three years of the contract. These are added to the salaries. So the cap hit would be $4, $6, $6, $8, $11, $13 million for the 6 years.

So now let's get to the dead money. The first decision point is after year 3. It's a no brainer if the player is living up to the contract. Pay the $6 million and keep it moving. But if the player needs to be replaced then the contract is terminated before year 4. So the last 3 years of salary ($17 million) and the $6 million option are not paid. The player walks away with the $18 million bonus and the $5 million in salary. However, the team is on the hook for the remaining $9 million of signing bonus that has not yet been charged to the cap. And they have 2 years to get it done. So the player costs $4.5 million per year in cap for years 4 and 5. Since the contract is terminated, the player is no longer on the team and has to be replaced. But for the next two years the cap is $4.5 million lower than everyone elses. Now note it's less than the $6 and $8 million that would have counted if the player had been retained.

It gets a bit worse if the player were terminated after year 4. Since the $6 million option has been paid the player walks away after 4 years with $32 million. There is still $6 million left of the signing bonus, and another $4 million from the option payment. So the team will have $5 million a year to pay for the missing player in years 5 and 6.

If the player is still productive after year 4, then the team will probably come to the player and try to renegotiate. But the player has some leverage because the team will have to eat $5 million and not have a player if they simply terminate the contract.

So this year Harper, Smith, and Vilma were all in these year 4 and 5 situations. So getting rid of them could have put upwards of $20 million of dead money for the next two years.

So as the old saying goes... "sometimes it's cheaper to keep 'em"

SFIAH

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

Most likely, Payton got more than enough opportunity to see the team in action last year and objectively determined that the scheme wasn't going to work when he got back. It sucked for Spags, but considering how quickly he was dismissed, it's clear that Payton had his mind made up walking into the building.

SFIAH

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

I wanted Romeo, but figured that missing Sean Payton was really the difference last year in any case.

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

Ive always felt that most players on our defense barely qualifies as starter material. With the exception of a couple notable guys like Jabari Greer or Vilma ( in the past) and now Lofton.

I think Gregg Williams got the most he could get out of them for a couple years there, a guy like Spags comes in and the guys just failed to learn his scheme, TBH I would of had more trust in Spags than anyone, might still do, I think our defensive players is the problem.

But I can tell you the one time we was playing with Bush and Quddus at Safety, seemed to of worked under Spags as opposed to Harper and whoever the hell else is at safety. Remember the 45-0 was it? thrashing of Tampa? It games like that that raises an eye brow to me for the fact his scheme shut out Tampa and then look back at potential problems on the defense more than any DC can handle or fix. I dont think Williams, Spags, or Gibbs was a problem. I think our players are the problem.

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

That is oh so magnanimous of you. I am sure Rob deeply appreciates this gesture.

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

Joe Vitt? Lol

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

Oak porn :)

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

The 2nd half was pretty tough to read, what with my giant throbbing erection!!! :p

Lets just bookmark this and link when someone suggests "lets just cut 'em and be done with it".

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

Ive been throwing around the idea of a sticky that covers this and a lot more.. The only thing that keeps me from putting in the time and effort is that people dont read before they ask..

We could have 5 threads on top titled we won the Super Bowl and right above them will be a one line thread. Did we win the Super Bowl..

Exactly like what happened with my Play off structure break down thread :/

sigh......

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

My favorite is "any news on (insert hot topic player name)?".

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

.

Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?
 

If we move up anywhere close to midway in the rankings, Mr. Ryan will be with us next season.