The new Era of the NFL.

TheOak · 01-08-2014, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by SaintsBro

Again, thank you for informing us feeble minds... I am not 13 years old - I know the teams have a physician that travels with them. My point WAS -- it's foolish to think as you seem to do, that a physician is inherently somehow more ethically pure or infallible to corruption or temptation. They are human. And not all at the same level of competence or integrity. The NFL had a joke of a physician as their chief "medical expert" on concussions for YEARS.

You are welcome, and You are right... It should be taken out of the AMBS Certified, Medically Licensed, MD; that risks loosing his license, sued for malpractice, and his job... And put the decision in the hands of a Coach or player who's bonus and W/L record at risk.

What is foolish is to think that there is anyone less of a risk of corruption. It's also interesting that you prefer to let someone with zero medical knowledge make the decision.

Neither your age or feebality of mind are of concern to me.

Choupique · 01-08-2014, 07:10 PM

i blame consumers for their toleration of politically correct bullcookies

roger goodell thrives in such an environment.

so did bush, so does obama.

people need to change. grow a pair, Americans.

Rugby Saint II · 01-08-2014, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by WHODATINCA

The players are more important than the game. Sorry. It's just a game. Players should not be asked to risk their life for our entertainment -- and of course they are tough and brave. We also want smart players. Smart players don't want to be a vegetable, even for a ring, or $30M.

What are you guys, ex-boxers?

I've played rugby for 35 years without a helmet and had multiple concussions. They are making way too much out of this.............errr, what were we talking about? I can't remember.

Rell&Gold · 01-08-2014, 10:11 PM

Yea I never hear too many boxers or rugby players with head injuries maybe it's the heavy @$$ lids they wear hmmm? Instead of changing all the damn rules change the gear

blackangold · 01-08-2014, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by WHODATINCA

The players are more important than the game. Sorry. It's just a game. Players should not be asked to risk their life for our entertainment -- and of course they are tough and brave. We also want smart players. Smart players don't want to be a vegetable, even for a ring, or $30M.

What are you guys, ex-boxers?

While I agree overall with your assessment we can't treat the players like victims. The players know what they are doing out there, they know it shortens their life. It is after their choice to be on the field.

lumm0x · 01-08-2014, 11:12 PM

For years the onus was on the player, and has migrated to coaches, team doctors and trainers and even to the league itself. I had a thought. There are these shock indicating patches. that can be set to register if force trauma exceeds certain levels. Why not incorporate these into helmets?

WillSaints81 · 01-09-2014, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by Mardigras9

And that is all.

When it comes to this stuff I look forward to his take on it because I just knew he would not agree to throwing someone right back in the game after a head injury.

TheOak · 01-09-2014, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Rell&Gold

Yea I never hear too many boxers or rugby players with head injuries maybe it's the heavy @$$ lids they wear hmmm? Instead of changing all the damn rules change the gear

They have them.
------------------------------------------------------

'Abstract
OBJECTIVE:

This study addresses impact biomechanics from boxing punches causing translational and rotational head acceleration. Olympic boxers threw four different punches at an instrumented Hybrid III dummy and responses were compared with laboratory-reconstructed NFL concussions.
METHODS:

Eleven Olympic boxers weighing 51 to 130 kg (112-285 lb) delivered 78 blows to the head of the Hybrid III dummy, including hooks, uppercuts and straight punches to the forehead and jaw. Instrumentation included translational and rotational head acceleration and neck loads in the dummy. Biaxial acceleration was measured in the boxer's hand to determine punch force. High-speed video recorded each blow. Hybrid III head responses and finite element (FE) brain modeling were compared to similarly determined responses from reconstructed NFL concussions.
RESULTS:

The hook produced the highest change in hand velocity (11.0 +/- 3.4 m/s) and greatest punch force (4405 +/- 2318 N) with average neck load of 855 +/- 537 N. It caused head translational and rotational accelerations of 71.2 +/- 32.2 g and 9306 +/- 4485 r/s. These levels are consistent with those causing concussion in NFL impacts. However, the head injury criterion (HIC) for boxing punches was lower than for NFL concussions because of shorter duration acceleration. Boxers deliver punches with proportionately more rotational than translational acceleration than in football concussion. Boxing punches have a 65 mm effective radius from the head cg, which is almost double the 34 mm in football. A smaller radius in football prevents the helmets from sliding off each other in a tackle.
CONCLUSION:

Olympic boxers deliver punches with high impact velocity but lower HIC and translational acceleration than in football impacts because of a lower effective punch mass. They cause proportionately more rotational acceleration than in football. Modeling shows that the greatest strain is in the midbrain late in the exposure, after the primary impact acceleration in boxing and football."
Concussion in professional football: comparison... [Neurosurgery. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

--------------------------------------------

Know what the difference is? Boxing, and football. much like being a soldier comes with an understood inherent danger. Soldiers do not sue for getting a leg blown off, boxers do not sue for concussions or damage that comes about later, because they know what the risks involved in their profession. If a soldier or boxer tried to sue it would never hold up in court because arguing that they didn't know the dangers would never hold up in trial. They also have no one with extra deep pockets to sue, and generally do not come from wealthy backgrounds, nor do they have a union to back them up.

Ex NFL football players IMHO 'should' fall into the same category. However... They claim that they didn't know that getting hit in the head as part of their profession could cause permanent damage.

The above is arguable to an extent but from the way I see it the head injuries are not why there are law suits, the NFL lied about their study and that caused culpability. Had the NFL come out and said "we did a study and there is long term brain damage associated with playing football", they would have not been culpable. As soon as they knew, they told everyone and that is pretty much due diligence.

Had the NFL not lied about the study they could have created plausible doubt in court by simply stating "that there is no way to prove that playing football in the NFL caused the damage as opposed to playing College or High School football." If you can not prove who is liable, no one is culpable.

Cruize · 01-09-2014, 09:42 AM

I've seen alot of concussions this year that didn't seem to be the result of helmet contact at all. Lewis didn't crash hard into the guy or the ground with his head. Yet, he had a concussion. What the NFL is doing NOW is the right thing for the players. I don't know how it will ultimately be for the league. When everyone's money from top to bottom and the existance of the league itself starts to get threatend, which longterm is possible, I doubt the powers to be will be so noble.

TheOak · 01-09-2014, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Cruize

I've seen alot of concussions this year that didn't seem to be the result of helmet contact at all. Lewis didn't crash hard into the guy or the ground with his head. Yet, he had a concussion. What the NFL is doing NOW is the right thing for the players. I don't know how it will ultimately be for the league. When everyone's money from top to bottom and the existance of the league itself starts to get threatend, which longterm is possible, I doubt the powers to be will be so noble.

If I recall correctly Aaron Rodgers had 2-3 in one year two years ago and both were a result of helmet to ground contact.

Can the NFL fine the turf?

01-08-2014, 05:16 PM	#11
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	The new Era of the NFL. Originally Posted by SaintsBro Again, thank you for informing us feeble minds... I am not 13 years old - I know the teams have a physician that travels with them. My point WAS -- it's foolish to think as you seem to do, that a physician is inherently somehow more ethically pure or infallible to corruption or temptation. They are human. And not all at the same level of competence or integrity. The NFL had a joke of a physician as their chief "medical expert" on concussions for YEARS. You are welcome, and You are right... It should be taken out of the AMBS Certified, Medically Licensed, MD; that risks loosing his license, sued for malpractice, and his job... And put the decision in the hands of a Coach or player who's bonus and W/L record at risk. What is foolish is to think that there is anyone less of a risk of corruption. It's also interesting that you prefer to let someone with zero medical knowledge make the decision. Neither your age or feebality of mind are of concern to me.

01-08-2014, 07:10 PM	#12
Choupique 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 2,594	Re: The new Era of the NFL. i blame consumers for their toleration of politically correct bullcookies roger goodell thrives in such an environment. so did bush, so does obama. people need to change. grow a pair, Americans.
Choupique 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 2,594

01-08-2014, 07:53 PM	#13
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,073	Re: The new Era of the NFL. Originally Posted by WHODATINCA The players are more important than the game. Sorry. It's just a game. Players should not be asked to risk their life for our entertainment -- and of course they are tough and brave. We also want smart players. Smart players don't want to be a vegetable, even for a ring, or $30M. What are you guys, ex-boxers? I've played rugby for 35 years without a helmet and had multiple concussions. They are making way too much out of this.............errr, what were we talking about? I can't remember. Rell&Gold likes this.

01-08-2014, 10:11 PM	#14
Rell&Gold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Washington, D.C Posts: 2,887	Re: The new Era of the NFL. Yea I never hear too many boxers or rugby players with head injuries maybe it's the heavy @$$ lids they wear hmmm? Instead of changing all the damn rules change the gear

01-08-2014, 10:52 PM	#15
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Re: The new Era of the NFL. Originally Posted by WHODATINCA The players are more important than the game. Sorry. It's just a game. Players should not be asked to risk their life for our entertainment -- and of course they are tough and brave. We also want smart players. Smart players don't want to be a vegetable, even for a ring, or $30M. What are you guys, ex-boxers? While I agree overall with your assessment we can't treat the players like victims. The players know what they are doing out there, they know it shortens their life. It is after their choice to be on the field. Rugby Saint II likes this.

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01-08-2014, 11:12 PM	#16
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Re: The new Era of the NFL. For years the onus was on the player, and has migrated to coaches, team doctors and trainers and even to the league itself. I had a thought. There are these shock indicating patches. that can be set to register if force trauma exceeds certain levels. Why not incorporate these into helmets?

01-09-2014, 12:24 AM	#17
WillSaints81 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,267	Re: The new Era of the NFL. Originally Posted by Mardigras9 And that is all. When it comes to this stuff I look forward to his take on it because I just knew he would not agree to throwing someone right back in the game after a head injury.

01-09-2014, 08:34 AM	#18
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	Re: The new Era of the NFL. Originally Posted by Rell&Gold Yea I never hear too many boxers or rugby players with head injuries maybe it's the heavy @$$ lids they wear hmmm? Instead of changing all the damn rules change the gear They have them. ------------------------------------------------------ 'Abstract OBJECTIVE: This study addresses impact biomechanics from boxing punches causing translational and rotational head acceleration. Olympic boxers threw four different punches at an instrumented Hybrid III dummy and responses were compared with laboratory-reconstructed NFL concussions. METHODS: Eleven Olympic boxers weighing 51 to 130 kg (112-285 lb) delivered 78 blows to the head of the Hybrid III dummy, including hooks, uppercuts and straight punches to the forehead and jaw. Instrumentation included translational and rotational head acceleration and neck loads in the dummy. Biaxial acceleration was measured in the boxer's hand to determine punch force. High-speed video recorded each blow. Hybrid III head responses and finite element (FE) brain modeling were compared to similarly determined responses from reconstructed NFL concussions. RESULTS: The hook produced the highest change in hand velocity (11.0 +/- 3.4 m/s) and greatest punch force (4405 +/- 2318 N) with average neck load of 855 +/- 537 N. It caused head translational and rotational accelerations of 71.2 +/- 32.2 g and 9306 +/- 4485 r/s. These levels are consistent with those causing concussion in NFL impacts. However, the head injury criterion (HIC) for boxing punches was lower than for NFL concussions because of shorter duration acceleration. Boxers deliver punches with proportionately more rotational than translational acceleration than in football concussion. Boxing punches have a 65 mm effective radius from the head cg, which is almost double the 34 mm in football. A smaller radius in football prevents the helmets from sliding off each other in a tackle. CONCLUSION: Olympic boxers deliver punches with high impact velocity but lower HIC and translational acceleration than in football impacts because of a lower effective punch mass. They cause proportionately more rotational acceleration than in football. Modeling shows that the greatest strain is in the midbrain late in the exposure, after the primary impact acceleration in boxing and football." Concussion in professional football: comparison... [Neurosurgery. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI -------------------------------------------- Know what the difference is? Boxing, and football. much like being a soldier comes with an understood inherent danger. Soldiers do not sue for getting a leg blown off, boxers do not sue for concussions or damage that comes about later, because they know what the risks involved in their profession. If a soldier or boxer tried to sue it would never hold up in court because arguing that they didn't know the dangers would never hold up in trial. They also have no one with extra deep pockets to sue, and generally do not come from wealthy backgrounds, nor do they have a union to back them up. Ex NFL football players IMHO 'should' fall into the same category. However... They claim that they didn't know that getting hit in the head as part of their profession could cause permanent damage. The above is arguable to an extent but from the way I see it the head injuries are not why there are law suits, the NFL lied about their study and that caused culpability. Had the NFL come out and said "we did a study and there is long term brain damage associated with playing football", they would have not been culpable. As soon as they knew, they told everyone and that is pretty much due diligence. Had the NFL not lied about the study they could have created plausible doubt in court by simply stating "that there is no way to prove that playing football in the NFL caused the damage as opposed to playing College or High School football." If you can not prove who is liable, no one is culpable.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

01-09-2014, 09:42 AM	#19
Cruize 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,457	Re: The new Era of the NFL. I've seen alot of concussions this year that didn't seem to be the result of helmet contact at all. Lewis didn't crash hard into the guy or the ground with his head. Yet, he had a concussion. What the NFL is doing NOW is the right thing for the players. I don't know how it will ultimately be for the league. When everyone's money from top to bottom and the existance of the league itself starts to get threatend, which longterm is possible, I doubt the powers to be will be so noble.
Cruize 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,457

01-09-2014, 09:44 AM	#20
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	Re: The new Era of the NFL. Originally Posted by Cruize I've seen alot of concussions this year that didn't seem to be the result of helmet contact at all. Lewis didn't crash hard into the guy or the ground with his head. Yet, he had a concussion. What the NFL is doing NOW is the right thing for the players. I don't know how it will ultimately be for the league. When everyone's money from top to bottom and the existance of the league itself starts to get threatend, which longterm is possible, I doubt the powers to be will be so noble. If I recall correctly Aaron Rodgers had 2-3 in one year two years ago and both were a result of helmet to ground contact. Can the NFL fine the turf?

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