Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season

burningmetal · 01-22-2014, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by Utah_Saint

OK

ProFootballFocus graded Zach Strief as the 7th best tackle overall and the best right tackle in the league for the 2013 season. He ranked 7th out of 128 tackles graded. In 1062 snaps, he gave up 3 sacks, 4 hits and 26 hurries. They scored his run blocking as average -.1, his screen blocking as just below that -.5, but his pass blocking was exceptional at 21.7, third best in the league behind Joe Thomas and Trent Williams.

De la Puente graded slightly above average with a positive 4.0. He was ranked 16th out of the 64 centers graded. He had positive grades in pass blocking at 2.7 and screen blocking at 1.5. He received negative marks for run blocking, -3.7 and was one of the least penalized centers in the league.

As far as Brown goes, I can't help you, PFF gave him a pretty bad grade. His pass blocking was terrible, ranking 122 out of 128 tackles graded.

I can't tell you how much I don't care about pro football focus. I'd much rather see an actual scout's grade. But thanks for making the effort unlike most people who just say "he's good cause this guy or that guy said so". Just looking at those stats, 26 hurries is a lot. It's not all about how many sacks you give up. Right tackle is by far the easiest of the two tackle positions. Drew ran for his life all season long, and why do we suppose that is? And how many holding calls did both of our tackles get? A lot. They could not give drew any time when we played any kind of decent defensive line.

How does anyone watch this team and how far the offense dropped, and turn around and defend this offensive line. People need to get off their googled metrics scaling BS and get back to watching the game. We all saw what happened out there, and it was not pretty.

This team for years has had to devise blocking schemes to mask deficiencies at tackle and run a ton of screens (to the point of becoming predictable at times) to slow down the rush a little. Those things never show up in stat sheets.

I think we keep Strief simply because we can't replace two tackles at the same time. Armstead may or may not round into form, but in the meantime Brown has to go. So for the time being I expect Strief to stay. I'm just going by what I'd like to see, and I'd like to see a lot of upgrading on the line. I am well aware of the fact that not much is likely to change.

Jack Vegas · 01-23-2014, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

I can't tell you how much I don't care about pro football focus. I'd much rather see an actual scout's grade. But thanks for making the effort unlike most people who just say "he's good cause this guy or that guy said so". Just looking at those stats, 26 hurries is a lot. It's not all about how many sacks you give up. Right tackle is by far the easiest of the two tackle positions. Drew ran for his life all season long, and why do we suppose that is? And how many holding calls did both of our tackles get? A lot. They could not give drew any time when we played any kind of decent defensive line.

How does anyone watch this team and how far the offense dropped, and turn around and defend this offensive line. People need to get off their googled metrics scaling BS and get back to watching the game. We all saw what happened out there, and it was not pretty.

This team for years has had to devise blocking schemes to mask deficiencies at tackle and run a ton of screens (to the point of becoming predictable at times) to slow down the rush a little. Those things never show up in stat sheets.

I think we keep Strief simply because we can't replace two tackles at the same time. Armstead may or may not round into form, but in the meantime Brown has to go. So for the time being I expect Strief to stay. I'm just going by what I'd like to see, and I'd like to see a lot of upgrading on the line. I am well aware of the fact that not much is likely to change.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-all-pro-team/

Last week the Associated Press announced their annual All-Pro team, and after a long season it’s time we do the same.

What makes our a little different is what we have to work with. At Pro Football Focus we have four people watching every game. Two collecting player participation data, one running through analysis with broadcast footage and another using the fantastic All-22 footage provided by Game Rewind to run the rule over that. Contentious plays go to our arbitration process and all told we’ve spent roughly 30 hours on each game.

Right Tackle: Phil Loadholt (MIN)
It wasn’t a great year for right tackles, especially with Sebastian Vollmer going down. That left us with a selection that was essentially two from three. With the team agreed that what Loadholt brings in the run game should get him the first team nod, it was left between Strief and Demar Dotson, with Strief edging the votes for his sheer consistency.
Second Team: Zach Strief (NO)

So tell me, did you spend 30 hours watching every game with a 4-person panel to come up with a consensus on anybody's play? No? I didn't think so.

How about you find some credible evidence that says Strief is as subpar as you believe?

Utah_Saint · 01-23-2014, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

I can't tell you how much I don't care about pro football focus. I'd much rather see an actual scout's grade. But thanks for making the effort unlike most people who just say "he's good cause this guy or that guy said so". Just looking at those stats, 26 hurries is a lot. It's not all about how many sacks you give up. Right tackle is by far the easiest of the two tackle positions. Drew ran for his life all season long, and why do we suppose that is? And how many holding calls did both of our tackles get? A lot. They could not give drew any time when we played any kind of decent defensive line.

How does anyone watch this team and how far the offense dropped, and turn around and defend this offensive line. People need to get off their googled metrics scaling BS and get back to watching the game. We all saw what happened out there, and it was not pretty.

This team for years has had to devise blocking schemes to mask deficiencies at tackle and run a ton of screens (to the point of becoming predictable at times) to slow down the rush a little. Those things never show up in stat sheets.

I think we keep Strief simply because we can't replace two tackles at the same time. Armstead may or may not round into form, but in the meantime Brown has to go. So for the time being I expect Strief to stay. I'm just going by what I'd like to see, and I'd like to see a lot of upgrading on the line. I am well aware of the fact that not much is likely to change.

One of the reasons I like to check out PFF is that I, as a fan, am not able to see things in perspective. I see things the way I want to see them. I think most fans do. We invest a lot of emotion into our teams and it's only natural to see things with black and gold colored glasses. Anyway, that's why I refer to a stat site, to see the facts. And how they compare to other players and teams around the league.

For example, 26 hurries seems like a lot for one guy to allow. But when you compare it to all the other tackles in the NFL, 26 is about the middle of the road, it's tied for 40th out of 75 tackles (25% of offensive snaps). And if we dig a little deeper, and consider how many passing plays Strief was in, 647, we see that it is only 4.8% of the time. That's the third best percentage of all tackles, left or right, in the league in 2013. So we may think we saw Strief give up a lot of hurries, maybe because we were ticked off that Drew had to scramble again, but the fact of the matter is, he really did do a great job in pass protection.

As far as holding penalties, Strief had 3 for the season. He also had 1 false start and 1 unsportsmanlike conduct. 5 penalties is right in the middle of the number of penalties for offensive linemen.

Off Topic:
While looking for penalties I saw this little fun fact. Drew Brees led the league in penalties, actually he was in a 3 way tie, with 12. Drew had 8 delay of game, 3 false starts and 1 intentional grounding.

Back on topic:
I agree with you, if the Saints decide to upgrade on the O-Line, I hope they do it one player at a time. I believe the longer a O-Line plays together, they better they play together. I would worry that wholesale change, even for better players, would hurt the chemistry.

But that last part is just my opinion.

TheOak · 01-23-2014, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

I can't tell you how much I don't care about pro football focus. I'd much rather see an actual scout's grade. But thanks for making the effort unlike most people who just say "he's good cause this guy or that guy said so". Just looking at those stats, 26 hurries is a lot. It's not all about how many sacks you give up. Right tackle is by far the easiest of the two tackle positions. Drew ran for his life all season long, and why do we suppose that is? And how many holding calls did both of our tackles get? A lot. They could not give drew any time when we played any kind of decent defensive line.

How does anyone watch this team and how far the offense dropped, and turn around and defend this offensive line. People need to get off their googled metrics scaling BS and get back to watching the game. We all saw what happened out there, and it was not pretty.

This team for years has had to devise blocking schemes to mask deficiencies at tackle and run a ton of screens (to the point of becoming predictable at times) to slow down the rush a little. Those things never show up in stat sheets.

I think we keep Strief simply because we can't replace two tackles at the same time. Armstead may or may not round into form, but in the meantime Brown has to go. So for the time being I expect Strief to stay. I'm just going by what I'd like to see, and I'd like to see a lot of upgrading on the line. I am well aware of the fact that not much is likely to change.

Come on... Seriously? We have had subpar tackles for "years", devised blocking schemes to mask for "years"?

As far as for your opening paragraph about PFF. You prefer a scout that should be scouting or is/had been a scout for a team that could possibly be partial grading our players? More than a 3rd party neutral company that makes its living being accurate?

You prefer a scouts opinion over an analysts methodology? Scouts are for evaluating potential talent, analysts that are impartial evaluate performance with empirical data.

01-22-2014, 11:16 PM	#1
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season Originally Posted by Utah_Saint OK ProFootballFocus graded Zach Strief as the 7th best tackle overall and the best right tackle in the league for the 2013 season. He ranked 7th out of 128 tackles graded. In 1062 snaps, he gave up 3 sacks, 4 hits and 26 hurries. They scored his run blocking as average -.1, his screen blocking as just below that -.5, but his pass blocking was exceptional at 21.7, third best in the league behind Joe Thomas and Trent Williams. De la Puente graded slightly above average with a positive 4.0. He was ranked 16th out of the 64 centers graded. He had positive grades in pass blocking at 2.7 and screen blocking at 1.5. He received negative marks for run blocking, -3.7 and was one of the least penalized centers in the league. As far as Brown goes, I can't help you, PFF gave him a pretty bad grade. His pass blocking was terrible, ranking 122 out of 128 tackles graded. I can't tell you how much I don't care about pro football focus. I'd much rather see an actual scout's grade. But thanks for making the effort unlike most people who just say "he's good cause this guy or that guy said so". Just looking at those stats, 26 hurries is a lot. It's not all about how many sacks you give up. Right tackle is by far the easiest of the two tackle positions. Drew ran for his life all season long, and why do we suppose that is? And how many holding calls did both of our tackles get? A lot. They could not give drew any time when we played any kind of decent defensive line. How does anyone watch this team and how far the offense dropped, and turn around and defend this offensive line. People need to get off their googled metrics scaling BS and get back to watching the game. We all saw what happened out there, and it was not pretty. This team for years has had to devise blocking schemes to mask deficiencies at tackle and run a ton of screens (to the point of becoming predictable at times) to slow down the rush a little. Those things never show up in stat sheets. I think we keep Strief simply because we can't replace two tackles at the same time. Armstead may or may not round into form, but in the meantime Brown has to go. So for the time being I expect Strief to stay. I'm just going by what I'd like to see, and I'd like to see a lot of upgrading on the line. I am well aware of the fact that not much is likely to change.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

01-23-2014, 12:38 AM	#2
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season Originally Posted by burningmetal I can't tell you how much I don't care about pro football focus. I'd much rather see an actual scout's grade. But thanks for making the effort unlike most people who just say "he's good cause this guy or that guy said so". Just looking at those stats, 26 hurries is a lot. It's not all about how many sacks you give up. Right tackle is by far the easiest of the two tackle positions. Drew ran for his life all season long, and why do we suppose that is? And how many holding calls did both of our tackles get? A lot. They could not give drew any time when we played any kind of decent defensive line. How does anyone watch this team and how far the offense dropped, and turn around and defend this offensive line. People need to get off their googled metrics scaling BS and get back to watching the game. We all saw what happened out there, and it was not pretty. This team for years has had to devise blocking schemes to mask deficiencies at tackle and run a ton of screens (to the point of becoming predictable at times) to slow down the rush a little. Those things never show up in stat sheets. I think we keep Strief simply because we can't replace two tackles at the same time. Armstead may or may not round into form, but in the meantime Brown has to go. So for the time being I expect Strief to stay. I'm just going by what I'd like to see, and I'd like to see a lot of upgrading on the line. I am well aware of the fact that not much is likely to change. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-all-pro-team/ Last week the Associated Press announced their annual All-Pro team, and after a long season it’s time we do the same. What makes our a little different is what we have to work with. At Pro Football Focus we have four people watching every game. Two collecting player participation data, one running through analysis with broadcast footage and another using the fantastic All-22 footage provided by Game Rewind to run the rule over that. Contentious plays go to our arbitration process and all told we’ve spent roughly 30 hours on each game. Right Tackle: Phil Loadholt (MIN) It wasn’t a great year for right tackles, especially with Sebastian Vollmer going down. That left us with a selection that was essentially two from three. With the team agreed that what Loadholt brings in the run game should get him the first team nod, it was left between Strief and Demar Dotson, with Strief edging the votes for his sheer consistency. Second Team: Zach Strief (NO) So tell me, did you spend 30 hours watching every game with a 4-person panel to come up with a consensus on anybody's play? No? I didn't think so. How about you find some credible evidence that says Strief is as subpar as you believe? Danno and TheOak like this.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

01-23-2014, 01:10 AM	#3
Utah_Saint Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 3,521	Re: Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season Originally Posted by burningmetal I can't tell you how much I don't care about pro football focus. I'd much rather see an actual scout's grade. But thanks for making the effort unlike most people who just say "he's good cause this guy or that guy said so". Just looking at those stats, 26 hurries is a lot. It's not all about how many sacks you give up. Right tackle is by far the easiest of the two tackle positions. Drew ran for his life all season long, and why do we suppose that is? And how many holding calls did both of our tackles get? A lot. They could not give drew any time when we played any kind of decent defensive line. How does anyone watch this team and how far the offense dropped, and turn around and defend this offensive line. People need to get off their googled metrics scaling BS and get back to watching the game. We all saw what happened out there, and it was not pretty. This team for years has had to devise blocking schemes to mask deficiencies at tackle and run a ton of screens (to the point of becoming predictable at times) to slow down the rush a little. Those things never show up in stat sheets. I think we keep Strief simply because we can't replace two tackles at the same time. Armstead may or may not round into form, but in the meantime Brown has to go. So for the time being I expect Strief to stay. I'm just going by what I'd like to see, and I'd like to see a lot of upgrading on the line. I am well aware of the fact that not much is likely to change. One of the reasons I like to check out PFF is that I, as a fan, am not able to see things in perspective. I see things the way I want to see them. I think most fans do. We invest a lot of emotion into our teams and it's only natural to see things with black and gold colored glasses. Anyway, that's why I refer to a stat site, to see the facts. And how they compare to other players and teams around the league. For example, 26 hurries seems like a lot for one guy to allow. But when you compare it to all the other tackles in the NFL, 26 is about the middle of the road, it's tied for 40th out of 75 tackles (25% of offensive snaps). And if we dig a little deeper, and consider how many passing plays Strief was in, 647, we see that it is only 4.8% of the time. That's the third best percentage of all tackles, left or right, in the league in 2013. So we may think we saw Strief give up a lot of hurries, maybe because we were ticked off that Drew had to scramble again, but the fact of the matter is, he really did do a great job in pass protection. As far as holding penalties, Strief had 3 for the season. He also had 1 false start and 1 unsportsmanlike conduct. 5 penalties is right in the middle of the number of penalties for offensive linemen. Off Topic: While looking for penalties I saw this little fun fact. Drew Brees led the league in penalties, actually he was in a 3 way tie, with 12. Drew had 8 delay of game, 3 false starts and 1 intentional grounding. Back on topic: I agree with you, if the Saints decide to upgrade on the O-Line, I hope they do it one player at a time. I believe the longer a O-Line plays together, they better they play together. I would worry that wholesale change, even for better players, would hurt the chemistry. But that last part is just my opinion. Danno likes this.

01-23-2014, 09:48 AM	#4
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,047	Re: Roman Harper, Zach Strief among New Orleans Saints players who might be elsewhere next season Originally Posted by burningmetal I can't tell you how much I don't care about pro football focus. I'd much rather see an actual scout's grade. But thanks for making the effort unlike most people who just say "he's good cause this guy or that guy said so". Just looking at those stats, 26 hurries is a lot. It's not all about how many sacks you give up. Right tackle is by far the easiest of the two tackle positions. Drew ran for his life all season long, and why do we suppose that is? And how many holding calls did both of our tackles get? A lot. They could not give drew any time when we played any kind of decent defensive line. How does anyone watch this team and how far the offense dropped, and turn around and defend this offensive line. People need to get off their googled metrics scaling BS and get back to watching the game. We all saw what happened out there, and it was not pretty. This team for years has had to devise blocking schemes to mask deficiencies at tackle and run a ton of screens (to the point of becoming predictable at times) to slow down the rush a little. Those things never show up in stat sheets. I think we keep Strief simply because we can't replace two tackles at the same time. Armstead may or may not round into form, but in the meantime Brown has to go. So for the time being I expect Strief to stay. I'm just going by what I'd like to see, and I'd like to see a lot of upgrading on the line. I am well aware of the fact that not much is likely to change. Come on... Seriously? We have had subpar tackles for "years", devised blocking schemes to mask for "years"? As far as for your opening paragraph about PFF. You prefer a scout that should be scouting or is/had been a scout for a team that could possibly be partial grading our players? More than a 3rd party neutral company that makes its living being accurate? You prefer a scouts opinion over an analysts methodology? Scouts are for evaluating potential talent, analysts that are impartial evaluate performance with empirical data.

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