KC beat us and we still won...
 

I guess I will just never understand that mentality.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

And I will never understand how winning one game seems more important than the long-term success of the team - so I guess we just agree to disagree.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

I don\'t see how winning one game hurts the long term success of the Saints. Maybe if it was absolutely no doubt that Haz/Venturi/McCarthy would remain if we finished strong then I could see your point. But winning is good, losing not so good.

But this sounds like a circular discussion.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Amen, Danno, you should have done what I did, and bailed on this one a long time ago ;)

KC beat us and we still won...
 

The crux of all the naysayers arguments hinge on getting a higher draft pick. This is magically gonna transform the team. The draft is little more than an organized crapshoot, with a plethora of touted talent failing to make the transition to pro ball. If everyone can agree that barring a SB win, there will be a bloodletting. Then we are debating moot points, why not just cheer for the guys, revel in their momentary glories, hug the goalpost with Joe, and sleep tight in the knowledge that a new regime is on the way, and their success will not be predicated by choosing 5 spots higher. Put away the ag***a , none of us are in the front office, so let\'s just be fans!!

KC beat us and we still won...
 

GREAT POST. ARE YOU MY LONG LOST TWIN?

And you even slipped in the A-word (again-da) very inconspicuously.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

This is the point everyone CAN NOT agree on cause we have watched a year beyond what should have been the life expectancy of this regime. And Haslett has a contract for another 2 years for 6 mil and we have an owner who\'s only concern is the bottom line, not dead money on the books. If someone can show me one iota of evidence that says Haslett will be fired at the end of this year no doubt, my naysaying will end right here and now. But you can\'t. Cause deep down you all fear the same thing I do, another year of the same. So while some are \'hoping\' Haslett will be gone at the end of the year no matter the record, I want there to be no doubt at all and losses is the only way to 100% ensure that. Different means to an end.

Also. the high draft pick is an added bonus. I would like someone on here to tell me Derrick Johnson or Antrell Rolle will be a bust. Either would look good in a Saints uniform to me.

[Edited on 16/11/2004 by saintswhodi]

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Wrong. The \"naysayers\" argument hinges on getting a NEW COACH. A high draft pick helps, but the issue is whether the Saints will do just enough to keep Haslett and/or any of his staff for just one more year... like they have the last 3 years. You\'re right Danno, this guy is your long lost brother. ;) LOL

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Whodi, I think you\'re MY long lost brother. ;)

This is a reat argument, and it reminds me of the arguments I heard before the 2003 season. People were absolutely positive that there was just no way the Saints could do worse than 10-6. Many people were predicting 12-4 or even 13-3.

What I KNOW is that the Saints excel most at proving Murphy\'s Law is alive and well. The worst that can happen will happen. These guys already have JH out of town. I\'ll start believing again once I KNOW that he is gone.

The worst thing that can happen IMO is for the Saints team to go 5-2 over the next 7, only lose to Denver and ATL (teams they should lose to), and end up out of the playoffs b/c some other team does what they are supposed to do and slides by the Saints based on some random tie breaking stat like fewest points allowed on grass. You know what that does? That keeps Haslett and Co. in NO next year, and that means inconsistency, squandered talent, and mediocirty. I\'m tired of that. I grew tired of that 2 years ago - I\'ve had eenough.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

(1) Nice post Johnny. I agree, but Whodat is right, the main argument isn\'t about a draft pick.

(2) Who and Whodi, regardless of who may be long lost brothers, I think that you guys also hold a claim you don\'t have a lot of evidence for, namely this: if we lose out, we\'ll get a new coach. I don\'t see that that is true anymore than you think we\'re wrong for saying we\'ll get a new coach either way.

(3) Here is some evidence that Haz is gone at the end of this year. Up until our horrible start, there were plenty of people around here willing to defend him. Now there are none. This means that even the fans have lost confidence in him. This is usually one of the prime factors in the dismissal of a coach. Thus, I have provided some evidence for my view that he\'ll be gone. Sure, they\'ll be a handful of people who will begin to believe if we win out, but I don\'t think there\'ll be too many - in fact, I think that if WE can see that he\'s an idiot, so can people who follow this more closely. (Surely, Whodi, you meant \"good evidence\" not just evidence, but here is some either way.)

What say you?

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Why can\'t people just take a win for a win. There are so many negative posts some would swear we lost 100-0 so what if KC lost the game it brought us to 4-5 be happy sheeezzz. Also our defense wouldnt be this bad if some brilliant fornt office people would have fired venturi after his defense allowed over 20pts in 15 of the 16 regular season games and we blew a 6-1 start. Any other team would have had the guy fired and hed be coaching high school football somewhere. Bottom line everyone except god should be shocked that we beat KC on Sunday so everyone should be thrilled to death. One team made more plays than the other thats why they play any one can beat anyone no matter what the conditions are or how brillaintly advertised an offense is everyplay someone does right and someone does wrong.. we won dont be :( be :D so basically if we lose next week this post is for nothing and I\'ll be :casstet: until then im thrilled.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Kool, my proof is the almost 90% certainty that we had that if the Saints would have lost to Oakland, Haslett would be gone already. That showed me that Banson is serious about doing what is necessary to get a new stadium or more funding for renovating the dome, and that means winning for him to get support.

My second piece of proof is Loomis\' distancing of himself from Haslett in recent weeks. And the fact Haslett was not invited to Benson\'s wedding. These are clear signs to me that losing will no longer be tolerated. The fact that Haslett was not fired after the Chargers debacle shows me he is clinging to some strand of life with the team and I want the umbilical severed.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

JKool, you must be my long lost brother.

We win two more games this year, anymore than that, and I would be shocked. Forget about the Broncos, Falcons (twice), and the Buccs. Dallas, maybe, and we split the Carolina games, only because the latter two teams don\'t have a running game.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

This may end up sounding like another post, but I don\'t think getting a win vs. Atlanta has anything to do with beating them. In Atlanta\'s two losses, Vick was the guy who beat them, not the other team. In fairness, he was also the guy who probably won them their seven (with a little respectable defense thrown in), so I guess the ATL fans aren\'t complaining.

Carolina\'s an unfortunate case. Injuries have made them a truly pitiful sight, and you gotta feel bad watching Jake Delhomme try and pilot the ship. Something\'s gone wrong with that defense they had last year ... could be that they\'re simply on the field too long.

Tampa Bay\'s not much different now than they were when we last played them, except that: now Michael Pittman\'s back in game shape, Michael Clayton is on fire, and they\'ve found a QB. I guess, in a way, we\'re indirectly responsible for the resurrection of Brian Griese. Sheesh...

In Denver\'s losses, they\'ve seemed too quick to abandon the run. After finally deciding on Reuben Droughns, and watching him put up a couple of big games, they\'ve since stopped giving him the ball as often. They\'re WR\'s have a Stallworth-like penchant for dropping easy ones. And Champ Bailey can be beat ... look at how Chad Johnson embarrassed him in the MNF football game.

Dallas is just bloody awful. Too old on offense, too young and injured in the secondary. Can\'t move the ball, can\'t keep anyone else from doing so. Special teams disasters abound. They look every bit as stupid as Parcells keeps telling them they are.

All this being said, I\'m refraining from outright predictions for now. I don\'t have the energy to fight off all the torches & pitchforks if I\'m labelled a sunshiner, nor do I want to appear too bleak. Still hanging on to that \"wait and see\" approach ... as I\'ve seen this year\'s Saints team before (again and again).





[Edited on 17/11/2004 by mutineer10]

KC beat us and we still won...
 

BnB, I\'d be proud to be your long lost brother. Also, I mostly agree with your position - though I think, as of now, we surprise ourselves and get 3 (maybe even 4) more.

Whodi, the things you stated sound like evidence for my view that Haz will be gone either way. I\'m not sure what else to say. Also, keep up the good work - you are very much among those who keep things interesting around here.

Mutineer, I like your optimism tempered as is it is. Please keep trying to make me believe... sometimes that is what everyone needs.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

John Wayne voice:

Wa\'ll, I\'ll do mah best, pardner. That thar\'s a tall order to fill in these parts, \'specially when yer out-gunned...

:icon23: :no:



[Edited on 17/11/2004 by mutineer10]

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Evidence? No, I don\'t have any and neither do you. This is speculative, we are talking about what we think may happen. Now, you say that if the fans are no longer behind Haslett, then the team must know better.

I mostly disagree with this argument. There has been a fairly substantial outcry about JH for two years now and Benson congratulated the coaches on a good season last year. You think there\'s no confidence in Haslett? Sure, there\'s less now then ever, but what if the Saints beat Denver and ATL? A few people on this board have already posted that \"we\'re still in it.\" Sound familiar? Sound like the same thing said EVERY year after 9 games? I don\'t think what the fans think is relevant to Benson at all. That\'s why guy like Wannstadt have stayed in positions four years longer than they deserved.

What I know is that JH has an expensive contract that keeps him in NO for two more years. There has been a lot of talk about how Benson might not want to have to \"buy him out.\" If Haslett is dumb enough to support Venturi, then why isn\'t Benson dumb enough to give JH another year, or two?

Four or Five wins, a half empty Dome, Bagheads - that gives me a lot of faith JH will be fired. 8-8 gives people reason to believe and at the end of the year make up some new and creative reason why it wasn\'t really JH\'s fault, it was the players, injuries, a bad practice facility, or just bad luck. Like I said, I want there to be no doubt. At 4-5, there is doubt as t whether he will be fired, especially if we win a few more.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

mutineer, ;)

Who, I take your point (and Whodi\'s), and I think it is an intelligent one. I guess, as of right now, our gut instincts are just different. In a few games, perhaps we can revisit the issue, perhaps we\'ll both have a slightly more evolved gut instinct by then.

Cheers.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

[quoteFour or Five wins, a half empty Dome, Bagheads - that gives me a lot of faith JH will be fired. 8-8 gives people reason to believe and at the end of the year make up some new and creative reason why it wasn\'t really JH\'s fault, it was the players, injuries, a bad practice facility, or just bad luck. Like I said, I want there to be no doubt. At 4-5, there is doubt as t whether he will be fired, especially if we win a few more. [/quote:e45be607c5]
WhoDat, I have a Hypothetical (I don\'t think it\'ll happen) question for you. I want you to answer honestly too.

If we are sitting at 7-8 (obviously due to other teams giving us wins instead of the Saints earning them) and thru a series of odd tie-breakers we will sneak into the playoffs if we win our last game at Carolina.

Can you honestly say you would pull for the Saints to lose and finish 7-9?

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Danno,

I can\'t answer for WhoDat, but I can answer for myself. Yes yes yes I would be pulling for a loss. I have maintained for the past few weeks tha no good will come of us making the playoffs, and I am staying with that, unless we win out. Backsliding into the playoffs is terrible.

So assuming Atlanta and Philly have the byes, and the way Green Bay is playing, my question to you is, you want this team on the road facing Green Bay at Lambeau in the winter?????? Seriously?? Then after that disaster, it will be \"Hey we made the playoffs. Must be doing something right. Let\'s stick with it, we are on the right track.\" Haslett stays, his staff stays, and we are back here again. You know the excuse we will hear? \"Well, Green Bay rarely loses at Lambeau in the playoffs. In fact, it has only happened once, so considering, I think we did alright.\" And here we all are again next year with the same questions and answers, but with a few more people on this side of the fence and another season down the tubes.

Same coach, same team, same attitude, same 18th draft pick, same offseason spin on how the changes this offseason will be better and how we had this or that low-key free agent targeted for a while and how they have rubbed off on other players in practice and there is a new attitude, not no-nonsense this time, but no sense at all.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Honestly, very hard to say. Normally, absolutely not, but in this case I want Haslett out so bad I think I might root against my boys.

I understand why this is perplexing - even I have a very hard time rooting against the Saints and rarely actually do so in-game. It\'s not about what I WANT in my heart, but about what my head tells me the team NEEDS.

Let me give you an analogy similar to your hypothetical. I hesitate to post this, so before I start let me say that I don\'t want to belittle the war in Iraq in any way shape or form. I use it only as an illustration.

Danno - if you were an Iraqi when or even just before America attacked. If you had been dealing with the same old oppressive treatment for years, would you still \"root\" for your country? Sure, Hussein is an a$$hole, but it seems to me that the Americans are gonna take him out. In the meantime, I\'m an Iraqi. I\'m going to root for my country. Maybe we can win a few and kill or mame a few foriegn soldiers before a change is made. That\'s in essence what you\'re saying here. Sure Haslett is a bum. Yes I want him and the rest of the coaches gone. But in the meantime, if the team can find a way to make them look good and give people hope, why not? Well, b/c maybe he\'ll end up staying if that happens, and the change that could really happen won\'t. That\'s why not. :)

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Sure, I\'ll accept that. Good analogy. Both groups want to see an end to the madness. Both are right when they say the issue is being mismanaged. Both groups want change for the better, not more of the same old same old. And I would say JH is very similar to Georgie-boy. Can\'t answer a straight question - ususally \"just doesn\'t get it\" - lies blatantly to the people (Iraq has weapons of mass destruction :: There is nothing wrong with AB\'s arm) - and generally preaches blind faith behind the wall of a huge propoganda machine despite every indication that things are no where near as peachy as he says they are. You\'re right, it\'s very similar. :)

That\'s enough of this though. I don\'t want this to descend into a political debate. Let\'s just say I\'m for change and you\'ll root for the team no matter what. Is that fair?

KC beat us and we still won...
 

This debate is getting perilously close to the place where arguments happen. I have a new spin, that incorporates much of the essentials of your analogy Who, but adds a few wrinkles that make it more robust. Let\'s consider the paradigm of a business that makes products that are designed to make it\'s customers happy, while continuing to make product innovations to keep pace with the market.
Now, for some time there has been grumbling that your customers are not happy with your product. You have added new features to it, often ones that market research has indicated were favorable, to try to raise the appeal of your product. Still no change.
However people still seem to be buying the product, they just don\'t like it anymore. On closer inspection it appears that the factory is fine, a bit old but serviceable. The raw materials are being brought in to the warehouse, there is a consistent effort to bring in shop floor workers, who on paper seem to be perfect for the job. Here is where the breakdown occurs.
The training department gives the new employee a garbled job description, he scratches his head but goes on, after basic training he\'s brought to his department. He meets his supervisor who doesn\'t impress him too much, as soon as the supe turns his back his fellow workers tell him that the guy\'s a crackpot who just brownnoses the production manager. Respect is quickly getting lost.
Meanwhile,the production manager is being told that the new recruit is gonna take some work. This buys the supe some time. As the recruit begins to grow roots in the company he becomes entrenched in his dislike of the dumb supe, a pattern emerges for the company, if they want a good worker they have to head hunt because they can\'t seem to develop new workers.
Despite all of this, the company ships it\'s product half-assed with faulty packaging, and half full palettes. Lo and behold the vast majority continue to buy it. Now the company would like to build a new factory, and they are locked in a debate over how much they should have to pay for the improvements.
This is roughly where we are now. Within this analogy there are multiple changes that can be affected, who is to blame? where does the company go from here? remember the idea is not just to sell the product, it is to have the product be respected and constantly evolving to keep pace with change.

[Edited on 18/11/2004 by johnnythesaint]

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Not so fast frenchie...
Show me where he lied. Show me. You can\'t do it.
Because everyone acknowledged (including demoncrats) that he DID have them. Then he was given 14 months to hide material THAT COULD FIT IN A TRACTOR TRAILER, in a country larger than California. Now some clueless idiots want to claim he lied.

ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC. No wonder Kerry and the rest of the demoncrats got their asses kicked.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

How soon we forget. NO POLITICS!!! Please keep politics out of the forum. This side is for football. I don\'t want to have to lock this thread.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

LOL - I agree Joe. AB\'s arm really was fine. LMAO. :)

KC beat us and we still won...
 

This is a heavy duty warning shot over the heads of WhoDat and Danno. Read the forum rules - no political debates at all.

Consider a magic cyber buillet just flew over your heads.

Everyone is tired of that debate also, and it\' breaks our rules.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

I like your analogy, johnny, nicely thought out. In light of recent events, I just hope our little company doesn\'t get outsourced...

Geaux Saints ... but not away!

KC beat us and we still won...
 

I didn\'t want to have to say it, but I will: let this thread die! There was some interesting discussion here, but it has since passed. Don\'t make me beat you with my eyes :bugeyes:

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Before you let it die, I would like to add my $.02. It wasn\'t an ugly win to me, because I didn\'t watch it...it was just a win. I am extremely pleased with that. I will take 7 more just like it in a heart beat, and I am not worried about the Saints getting into the playoffs and stinking it up...at least I will be sitting down some afternoon in the near future awaiting another Saint playoff game kickoff. That would be enough for me....anything beyond that would be gravy, and I do like gravy.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Very interesting thread.

We beat the Chiefs and thats the bottom line. Let\'s not forget these are the same Chiefs who put up 40 points on a regular basis.

So, what did you think was going to happen in this game?

Hell, I\'ll betcha all the folks complaining were the same ones who game the saints ZERO chance of winning. Some folks like to talk out both sides of their mouth......... ;)

I\'m far from happing about the way our season has gone. But, I\'m happy as hell anytime we get a win, regardless of how we won the game.

Some of you chumps need to look around the NFL and realize it\'s very difficult to wn.

For those of you who know me........hello.

For those or ya that don\'t....hmmmmmm...you will....... :P

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Well look who decided to drop in - Mr. Sunshine himself. I noticed that there wasn\'t any suggetion of the playoffs in your last thread. Why not? This is about the time you should be talking about 10-6, right? LOL. ;)

KC beat us and we still won...
 

40 points with their best offensive weapon in the line-up. Seemed to me he didn\'t line up Sunday.

I never gave them zero chance of winning. But I did repeatedly say the best thing for them was to lose miserably.

Yeah, especially when the little talent you have has to overcome horrible coaching.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Hello, Billy- long time.

Does this mean you\'re back for a while? Eternal optimism has taken a severe shot since your departure. I know subguy has missed you. :P

EDIT: Billy, I know you might think that I give you a hard time alot, but the boards aren\'t the same when you\'re not posting. And I love chaos.... :P

[Edited on 19/11/2004 by BlackandBlue]

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Well, well, well. I see that there are two things that can save a thread that should die:

(1) People who haven\'t had a chance to say something yet, and
(2) the ghost of Sunshine past.

It seems that BnB and I continue to be long lost brothers, as I couldn\'t agree with him more... yet again (though I suppose I was never one for giving you too much trouble, eh Billy?)

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Me too. BC was one of my favorite posters... when he was around. It\'s like Mora... always good for a sound bite. ;) LOL

oh, and this: \"the ghost of Sunshine past.\" is going down in history. LMAO!! Nice J.. er.. Granola Boy. I\'m keeping that one.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Ya know, sometimes I try not to be a stick in the mud... ;)

KC beat us and we still won...
 

I went back through some old posts hoping to nail whodi on this one. Turns out I could find no evidence to disrepute his claim...

Whodi, I beg your pardon ... you speak the truth ...

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Mutey, I rarely speak out of my arse or just to hear myself speak. I am very aware of what I am saying, and what I have said. Thanks for adding more credibility to my defense of myself though.

KC beat us and we still won...
 

Was that really the artist formerly known as Billy? Wow........kind of miss having someone to argue with.