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KC beat us and we still won...
I think the fans won this game in the closing minutes by creating so much noise it confused KC and inspired the defense. If you look at the stats going into the 3rd quarter we should NOT have won this game. KC ran on us at will, passed on us at will, shut down our passing game except for a handfull of key plays and coverage mistakes.
Why does our DC allow a QB to stand in the pocket and pick off our coverage at will ? Every pass situation should have somebody blitzing when your rush-4 is NOT getting penetration and the coverage is giving up 15-20-25 yard gains play after play after play. Where is our middle linebacker? Who ever plays middle linebacker for the Saints should be forced to wear cement moon boots and line up 4 yards behind the nosegaurd. I swear that would have have cut KC`s Blaylock yardage in half. We didn`t win this game, KC lost it. |
KC beat us and we still won...
Typical Saints\' post. Can\'t even enjoy the damn win... :casstet:
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KC beat us and we still won...
If the team ever played up to their potential it might be different BnB.
When the Pats squeak out a win their fans can say. \"We weren\'t at our best but we gritted it out. We showed heart despite not playing to our usual level today.\" When are the Saints going to play at that consistent level so we can enjoy a win like this? This game was a fluke! KC didn\'t show up to play. Neither did the Saints. KC was MORE inept than NO today. That is the game I saw today. It is difficult to take pride in that. |
KC beat us and we still won...
Spin it how you want, in the end, the Saints put 27 on the board, and the Chiefs only put up 20. Was it the best football I\'ve ever seen them play? Hell no, but a win is a win, and with this season, I\'ll take what I can get, shutup, and be damn happy about it. I swear, it seems like some people ***** because they enjoy hearing themselves *****. There\'s nothing wrong with pointing out the positives and the negatives, but when you make a statement like, \"We didn\'t win this game, KC lost it\". first off, I don\'t remember seeing your potato eating ass on the field running routes, and second, print out a copy of Horn\'s and McAllister\'s stats from today, take a **** on it, and mail it to them- because that\'s basically what your doing by making these absurd remarks.
[Edited on 15/11/2004 by BlackandBlue] |
KC beat us and we still won...
BNB,
You seem awfully upset at people having an opinion about the game. I mean far be it from anyone to feel like giving up 500 yards win or not is a bit ridiculous. Had KC come to play, we would not have had a chance. They didn\'t and gave us the game(3 turnovers) and that was pointed out. Nothing wrong with that. So let\'s see what we accomplished by winning. Haslett gets to feel good about himself cause we got a W. Venturi gets to feel good cause we only gave up 20 points and got 3 turnovers(never mind that we gave up 500 some odd yards to a team w/o their best offensive weapon). We stand second in the NFC South. What is the hope? That we make the playoffs? I ask again, how would that be good? At all? Even if we beat Atlanta twice and they if noone else does they still beat us by a game for the division title. And to top it off, you know, I know, EVERYONE KNOWS, as soon as we get our hopes up again they will get blown out not by Denver or Atlanta, but by sad- sack Carolina or Tampa Bay, the losses you just can not understand. Sorry if it bothers you someone said that but I think they are right. No way can anything good be said about getting 500 some odd yards hung up on you. Think that would fly in New England? I guess our standards have been lowered. [Edited on 15/11/2004 by saintswhodi] |
KC beat us and we still won...
Whoa there big guy! Take it easy or you\'ll end up like me. ;) Heart attacks ain\'t no fun. :o
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KC beat us and we still won...
a win is a win is a win....period............and did anyone else notice that the \"D\" played with a little more HEART than usual.....we still suck but I\'ll take the \"W\"...
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KC beat us and we still won...
Whodi, I like you, and I think you\'re a smart guy, but I\'m with BnB on this one.
I can\'t understand this: \"if KC had come to play, we would not have had a chance.\" Are you really suggesting that KC can afford to lose, so they showed up and played all half azzed? That is crazy. NFL players play to win, they don\'t just show up for sh*ts and giggles. Also, we played terrible D, but our offense was just fine. This is why people talk about winning the shoot out. We won the shoot out. Both defenses stunk, but our O was better today than KC\'s was against our mostly pathetic defense - that is how the game works, isn\'t it? Now, Chaching, I don\'t agree with you either. There are good wins and bad wins. The good wins are the ones that you take pride in (as Whodi points out), and the bad wins are the ones where you say, \"whew, we pulled that one out\" or \"well we escaped that one\". This was a bad win. However, I, for one, will not get down about it whether it was good or bad. Here is an analogy, there are \"garbage\" goals in hockey. Sure no one takes pride in them, but a goal is a goal when it comes to deciding who the winner is. Think of it this way - it actually takes more work than one thinks to get a \"garbage\" goal. Our boys did that today - they were good enough to win on a \"garbage\" goal, and that is not saying nothing. And, I take it that is what you meant when you added an extra clause to your \"a win is a win....... period\" statement, right? |
KC beat us and we still won...
So now, just winning the game isn\'t acceptable? You have to win it by your standards? Like I said, it wasn\'t pretty by any stretch of the imagination, but when I am starving for something, I\'ll take what I can get, and usually not ***** about it. And I\'m sorry, but we\'re not going to see many more wins this season.
It\'s ok to point out the positives and negatives in the game, but what set me off was the comment that we didn\'t win this game- yeah we the **** did- that\'s why we get another strike in the win column. There\'s no asterisks in football. And file that whoa-is-me-card back into your small pile of tricks. I appreciate your condescending tone, also. |
KC beat us and we still won...
Man, I am not a sunshiner (any more ;) ) but I agree with B&B. Just enjoy the win, y\'all. Jeez.
Reality check (you can cash it in whenever you want) : The Saints are NOT the Patriots or Eagles and we are not their fans. Do not compare the 2 teams. We are NOT a pretty, sexy team. We\'re the Saints. Let me remind you. I am proud to be a Saints fan. But wake up y\'all. Ya\'ll are acting like the goofy girl with thick glasses and zits who complains because another ugly kid (that would be me) asked you out, rather than the prom king. What gives us the right to be so picky with our wins? Really y\'all. What have y\'all seen in your life as a Saints fan that allows you that luxury?? (We should just admit it, we fell for what our media and team told us) When we become a team that regularly is in the playoffs, and actually wins there more than once in its history...then sure, we can get uppity. For now, take the win. Enjoy it while we still can (we have until Sunday). Save your angst for the losses, there will be plenty. Sure our defense stunk. But why are y\'all surprised? I\'ve seen that all year. They are NOT going to improve dramatically this year. They may play with more heart and make less mistakes. But come on guys, deep down you know our defense sucks. Let\'s admit it, and expect shoot outs. That\'s our only hope of winning games. We are a lot more like the Colts than the Jaguars or Ravens. So let\'s not compare ourselves to real defenses. I was proud of our boys yesterday even with the 500+ yards given up. They caused turnovers (Fakhir Brown ripped the ball out of Morton\'s hands) they did just enough for us to win. I expect them to give up 400+ yards, I just hope they can keep teams form the end zone. |
KC beat us and we still won...
BnB - blowing a fuse! LOL
Hey B, I actually agree with him. KC did hand us the game, we didn\'t win it. THEY made mistakes that cost them that we had nothing to do with. Sure Horn played great and Deuce was his old self - but if KC\'s O doesn\'t blow every one of their toes off, it\'s all for naught. Likewise, just when you think this Saints team is poised for utter failure, the kind that gets coaches fired (which I personally think is the best possible thing for the team), they go and do something to stay in it. That\'s a shame. I mean, with our division and Dallas the Saints could end up with 7 or 8 wins. Do you really want that? Really? 8 Wins could very easily mean no changes and I don\'t want to put up with this stuff AGAIN next year. 8 wins means the 18th pick in the draft... again. 8 wins means more of the same, and I\'m sick of the same. I want CHANGE, and it won\'t come with the Saints finding a way to get close, but not get there. This team is NOT a playoff caliber team, so I don\'t want to see them anywhere near the playoffs. |
KC beat us and we still won...
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If wins are all that matter (so they say) then why should we be less happy about this one? Let us remember Carolina. You remember the Panthers...the luckiest team in football? They won \'em by the skin of their teeth week after week and all those Delhomme-ites were crowing about how fabulous he was. They stink this year, and that great coach over there, Mr. Fox, can\'t seem to coach them boys up. Turns out injuries DO matter after all. Takes a little luck too it would seem. LMAO |
KC beat us and we still won...
So what is causing the Saints inconsistent play this year - injuries or bad luck? LMAO!
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KC beat us and we still won...
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BNB, I guess your comments about the condescending tone was directed at me. And I don\'t know what whoa is me card was played, I just pointed out the truth as I see it. Nothing good can come out of that win, unless we win the rest. If we are gonna mamby pamby the rest of the season how does that help us? NOONE has explained that one to me yet. HOW IS GOING 7-9 OR 8-8 AND NOT MAKING THE PLAYOFFS OR EVEN IF WE DID GONNA HELP THIS TEAM? Can noone answer that for me? Please? Do you really, REALLY, wanna see Haslett for another year? Really? And how hasn\'t Venturi been fired or demoted already? Chances are this clown will stay. This is unacceptable if we wanna truly be winners. I am not into giving free passes any more. JKool, Mad respect to you but I have to disagree. I didn\'t mean to imply KC didn\'t come to play, but they had uncharacteristic turnovers and mental break downs that cost them the game. If Priest had played, how many yards and tds do you think he would have had? And Eddie Kennison with over 100 yards? EDDIE KENNISON? That makes me wanna puke. We got killed by another tight end also. A win is a win when you have a history of winning. You can look at a team and say, man they find a way to win. That isn\'t us. You can\'t really tell me there wasn\'t an unsettled feeling in your stomach once the clock reached zeroes and we had a W. We all know what\'s coming. I would like to get caught up in the moment but I have been brought to tears too many times. Every win we get from here on out is bad bad bad cause this team needs a total coaching, front office, and some players rehaul. Pulling out crap wins isn\'t gonna help that cause. |
KC beat us and we still won...
Winning is contagious. You can\'t win 2 in a row without winning the first one. You\'re right....it was not a pretty win, but I\'ll take an ugly win over a loss any day of the year.
Our defense got shredded. But I\'ll give them credit that they made the most of opportunities and got turnovers when they needed them the most. It could have easily been 21-0 fast and they gave us a much needed momentum change. It was nice to see guys like Ruff and MacKenzie make some key plays. This will give them some confidence and sometimes a confident opponent is dangerous. Denver is shaky right now too. They aren\'t playing their best ball and we do have the ability to be unpredictable and dangerous. |
KC beat us and we still won...
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KC beat us and we still won...
i totally disagree.
The saints WON this game. Eventhough McCarthy is such a blank and we could have ran all day long on this team and hardly gives duece the ball. And Venturi can not spell Blitz. If you take that point of view you can just about say nobody beat the saints that THEY gave the game away?? |
KC beat us and we still won...
And K.C. did the same thing for their last 3 games and we beat them. Green and the Chiefs offense was the best they\'ve been all year lately. 5-5 if we get by the Broncos and we still get the Falcons twice..... I\'ll take that considering everything else this season has brought. Let\'s have one grain of optimism in a bleak season.
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KC beat us and we still won...
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Great point. I think the Saints DO give away most of the games they lose. Dropped balls, penalties, and turnovers. Sounds like the Chiefs on Sunday. Also lumm0x, I know you noticed so I won\'t insult your intelligence, but the Chiefs had Priest Holmes the last 3 games. Not quite the same scenario. I am willing to bet the Chiefs would have had a little different gameplan in the red zone had Priest been healthy. Blaylock ran all over us in the middle of the field but NO RB IN THE NFL is as good as Priest Holmes in the red zone. NOONE. Good thing he didn\'t play. |
KC beat us and we still won...
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16 carries, 127 yards... AT ABOUT 90% RECOVERED? The Chiefs were lucky it was so close. |
KC beat us and we still won...
Good points all around.
However, before we continue to discuss what counts as winning versus not losing, I suggest that someone give a criterion (or criteria) for how we distinguish between the two. This way we can check it, rather than repeating yes-no over and over again. |
KC beat us and we still won...
:sulkoff:
Man, just got back from a fun, long weekend in N.O. and looks like nothin\'s changed! Welcome back to the hornets nest... No, the win wasn\'t pretty, but it was the cherry on top of a good few days. I saw a few paper sacks, but they disappeared after halftime. There were some of the same old bad decisions: only 6 carries for Deuce at the half, the Saints coming out throwing (and continuing to throw, badly) when Deuce was averaging about 10 YPC. You\'ve all read this crap already so I don\'t need to rehash it. But it\'s a valid point that nothing about a W says it has to look like Britney Spears, and a lotta teams have won ugly over the years ... and continue to. Ain\'t nothin\' pretty about the Ravens, but they get it done. Ain\'t nothin\' pretty about the Bears, but they\'re starting to win. Yeah, I know they\'re getting it done with D, but they\'re doing it. At the risk of sounding too much like a \"sunshiner,\" there\'s still 7 games left in the season. We\'re 4-5. Would it really be so horrible if we staggered our way into the playoffs? Once there, all you gotta do is win one-at-a-time, and they ain\'t gotta be pretty, either. If we don\'t wanna win, or are unhappy when we do, why the heck are we wasting our time on here talking about it? If I didn\'t care, I\'d find a better way to spend my time... |
KC beat us and we still won...
First of all ... I`m a Saints fan ..... I`m happy with the win, but I`m very disappointed and frustrated with the season as a whole thus far.
Secondly, it just frustrates me to no end to watch an opposing QB stand in the pocket with no pressure and pick off our defensive coverage for big gains. Why cant we bring pressure? why? When the the front 5 is not getting it done, we MUST BLITZ. If you think we`re going to win games down the stretch playing like our defense played against KC then your just delusional. I hope I`m wrong.... but I doubt it. |
KC beat us and we still won...
With all that being said, mutineer, one question. Haven\'t we seen this before? Haven\'t we seen 9-7 and 8-8 and 7-9 for the past three years? Haven\'t we seen us not make the playoffs with these records? Haven\'t we seen what a draft pick in the high teens does for us? Leaves us a shot at nothing. Had we been 6-10 last year instead of 8-8, we would have DJ Johnson right now. So if I understand correctly, you guys want this again? And the playoffs, why does anyone want this? On the road in Philly or Green Bay on the winter? We aren\'t that good in our home dome let alone on the road with playoffs intensity out in the elements. And then we are picking in the 20s. Someone tell me an impact player we can draft there. Come on ya\'ll. We have seen this before. If you stick your hand on a hot stove, do you keep doing it expecting it not to burn you every time?
I think what is being misunderstood is I am not down on the SAINTS, cause they are in my soul. I am down on Haslett and his crew ruining this team and am willing to take all sacrifices to make them disappear. |
KC beat us and we still won...
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Hey, you said one question!!! I\'m kidding, and if my post was a little harsh or sounded like a personal attack, that wasn\'t my intention. But god yes, over my 20-or-more years as a Saints fan, I\'ve sure seen enough 7-9\'s, 8-8\'s & 9-7\'s. I most certainly and sullenly agree with that one... One argument I could make is that, if we do get a high draft pick, who\'s to say we\'d actually capitalize on it? Sully\'s the most glaring example of what we did last time we picked high (whatever the circumstances). I\'ll take a few more Courtney Watsons, Mike Karneys, etc. over another pick like that. And even if we do ship out Haz & Co., Loomis will likely still be around to lend an incapable hand on draft day. I wasn\'t \"blowing sunshine (sic Danno),\" I\'m just taking the old \"wait and see\" approach. Meanwhile, I\'m gonna enjoy the win... |
KC beat us and we still won...
11 Derrick Johnson, LB
Height: 6-4 Weight: 220 Team: Texas Longhorns Class: Senior My two cents. This guy is MEAN! He has GREAT football instincts. He is a gamer. Good character by all accounts too. |
KC beat us and we still won...
If we could be in a position to draft him, with Watson, holy crap.
mutineer, I did not take any of it as a personal attack. This is a website, I would not take anything personal on here. ButI am pretty sure once Haslett and Co. are gone not too many more drafts will be botched like Sully. Some of the guys at the top of this draft are no brainers. Hell, I would take Mike Williams and we don\'t even need offense. That guy is gonna be awesome. |
KC beat us and we still won...
SF4ever,
If the front five are involved, then we\'re already blitzing - since that is one person greater than the usual pass rush. I\'m not going to rehash this here, but \"just blitz, baby\" is NOT on its own a solution to the problem of the QB getting too much time. Obviously, there are different kinds of blitzes, some of which will make us much worse off in our weakest area - run stopping. Blitzing must be well considered and well timed. Whodi, I\'ve got to disagree with you on the \"just lose, baby\" strategy. First, I think at this point Haz is gone at the end of the year no matter the outcome of our season. Sure, I\'d like to see him go sooner, but not at the cost of taking losses. Here is an argument (which I just wrote in another thread): losing generates several problems - players give up and want to jump ship, it is harder to sign FA to a team with a losing attitude, this will give players the idea that their year is worthless (making individual achievements meaningless, inspire a negative attitude in general, and reinforce the idea that each game is not that important for rookies and young players), among other things. The damage of not trying to win (or stringing a bunch of half hearted losses together) will have a serious impact on our team for the course of the next few years - you would risk that for a slightly higher draft pick and a coaching change (that looks like it\'ll happen either way)? I guess, I just am not seeing a very compelling argument for breaking the spirit of the players who still have some. And, don\'t go telling me they don\'t have any spirit to lose (as I know you wouldn\'t, but I\'m sure there are other who might). I saw a bunch of guys doing their best to win against a better team, coming in as huge underdogs, and playing to the very end (including two big defensive plays right at the end of the game). |
KC beat us and we still won...
When looking at the draft and free agents Kool, I look at Marvin Lewis in Cincy. Players wanna go there now cause they have a new regime change. You think people won\'t wanna play with Denny Green in Arizona? Some players wanna play for money, some play for teams that have a chance at winning. In free agency I have noticed good players towards the end of their careers tend to go for winning while younger good guys go for money. Hell, Jeff Garcia went to the Browns, and he was a pro bowl qb. The Browns??? I am not buying the if we lose we won\'t get free agents argument cause in recent years it hasn\'t held true for losing teams that made significant changes.
And as for players not wanting to play for a sorry team, how long has San Diego been bad? They had no reason to believe before the season they would be any better yet LT signed a contract extension with them. The best rb in football. So I am unable to agree with either of your arguments, good as they were. |
KC beat us and we still won...
Whodi,
Well put, I\'ll have to consider your points further. It does seem to me that you\'re right that if we change up our coaching AND get someone good in here, that our FA will not be effected. I don\'t think LT is sufficient to make your point there, but that is a fine fine example. We, however, were unable to attract several free agents the last two years because of the way things have been going here. Thus, that is a count toward my point - though, I will grant, also inconclusive. Also, SD was unable to land the player they wanted, before he through a stink about going there, in this year\'s draft. Thus, I understand your disagreement, but there seems to be evidence on both sides at this particular point. |
KC beat us and we still won...
Agreed. We will have to see how it plays out as I continue to hope for losses UNTIL Haslett is removed and you, along with some others, hold onto him being let go regardless to what happens the rest of the year, short of winning the Superbowl I assume. I just hope for all our sakes he is gone at the end of the year.
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KC beat us and we still won...
I agree as well that we\'ve gotta get more aggressive in FA. Sure, there are risks involved there, but not nearly the risks involved with drafting. And given the salaries high picks routinely demand these days (look at Phillip Rivers), I\'d just as soon take an established player that can step in and produce right away.
That being said, I don\'t want the Saints to start looking like the Raiders or Cowboys ... by which I mean teams where once-great players go to taint their fine careers with woeful performances. As for Garcia, thank our lucky stars the Browns ended up with him instead of us. I\'m no real AB fan, but Garcia\'s getting old and playing pretty spotty ball these days. Though I heard no such rumors at the time, I was scared to death we were gonna sign him. After playing the Steelers Sunday, the guy looked like he just saw a busload of ghosts. PS: Remember how Kerry Collins acted when he was down here? Don\'t wanna think about Garcia anywhere near the Quarter (especially if what T.O. says is true). :puke: [Edited on 16/11/2004 by mutineer10] |
KC beat us and we still won...
Yes you give up pass coverage on a blitz, and yes you weaken the run defense when you blitz... sorta like KC did to our offense, and if you take away their bonehead penalties on defense, their blitz schemes worked. But when an opposing team is in a passing situation (lined up in the shotgun) and based on what your defense has given up prior trying to \"cover\", don`t you agree that it would be wise to run a blitz and not let the QB stand in the pocket like a cigar store indian untill he finds a receiver and burns you again? hello |
KC beat us and we still won...
You know, I just don\'t get it. I don\'t.
I mean, I understand the argument that to win 5 you have to win one. And I understand that an ugly win is still a win. What I don\'t understand is how the fans get suckered into this year in and year out. What, THIS year is REALLY HONESTLY TRULY NO LIE the year that is going to be different? If you\'re a real fan you\'ll believe? No. I don\'t. I seem to remember being 3-4 last year and saying (along with a whole slew of others), if we can just get to 4-4 we\'re sitting real pretty - the second half of the season is really weak. But we didn\'t did we? We fell to 3-5. Then we picked it up here or there and managed to bumble to 8-8. Is that what you people want again? Can one win in a game where our 3-5 opponent gave the game away really make you think this team can now all of a sudden win the 6 of our last 7 we need to make the playoffs? You\'re always happy with a win? Why? If winning maks us 7-9 or 8-8, is that a good thing? I just don\'t get it. 5-11 is good. It means no more Haslett and a draft pick in the top 7 or so. |
KC beat us and we still won...
WhoDat,
This is really starting to freak me out dude. You and I are both arguing the same point, exactly the same. I would say it\'s the great minds thing, but I don\'t wanna insult anyone else. We\'ll just see how it plays out. If we do go 8-8 though, I will be seriously distraught in the offseason and come draft time. |
KC beat us and we still won...
the thing you have to remember is...the saints have had a tradition of falling apart around this time of year..and judging by other years strong starts...we are really in for a long one..the kc win was a win..but..it was like winning a race cuz the other guy had a blowout..and now some people are jumping and cheering...this team will not make the playoffs...and they shouldn\'t...and that hard to say...but..we don\'t deserve it..playing the way we have
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KC beat us and we still won...
SF4ever,
Why don\'t all team simply bring six guys every time that the opponents line up in the shotgun? Because sometimes its a run. A draw or a QB sneak are very real options even in the shotgun. Also, bringing six guys does not equal sack; if your coverage is only so so on the inside, a short pass will beat you if you empty out the middle. Blitzing is only really effective against plays that are designed to be middle or deep passes. Even then it depends on what the second read is for the QB (i.e. if the first progression is to the short middle or some sort of slant or hook). Don\'t get me wrong, we should blitz more. I\'m just saying people ought to stop saying \"we should blitz more\" as though that was an easy solution to all our problems. My point is, and will continue to be, this: without a good defensive game plan, blitzing frequently only increases your chances of getting screwed for a bunch of points. |
KC beat us and we still won...
Who, you know I love you, but I don\'t get it either.
(1) No one currently believes the hype. Sure there are some guys who keep saying things like \"we might just make the playoffs\", but I thought that was just to draw interesting discussion. I don\'t think we will. (2) I made some arguments as to why losing many more games might be detrimental, and Whodi made some nice counter arguments, but I thought the upshot of that was a draw so far. If you really think that 5-11 is GOOD, then I think you should weigh in on that debate. I, for one, would be interested in hearing some more argument on that. (3) As far as I read, NO ONE said anything about being a true fan anywhere in here. I know you are one of the biggest fans around, and I respect your views A LOT. I\'m not sure why you felt a need to point this out? |
KC beat us and we still won...
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WHO SAID WE\'RE GONNA WIN 6 OF OUR LAST 7? You\'re implying there\'s a large contingent out there that now thinks we\'re SB bound? I don\'t hear anyone saying that. Why imply it? I\'m happy we won. It was a fun game to watch. My team won. I\'m a Saint fan. I pull for the Saints no matter what. I enjoy watching my team win. Haz has run out of time. He\'s gone no matter what WhoDat. The smart thing to do last year was lose to Dallas and get a better draft pick. We had absolutely nothing to gain by winning that game but it was one of the most enjoyable games I watched last year. I loved it. |
KC beat us and we still won...
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I want to see the team win too - but what I want more than that is to see them CONTEND. They aren\'t contenders right now and te only way to change that is for them to lose and a coaching switch be made. Delayed gratification my friend. If the Saints beat Denver and ATL will you believe that they have a chance at the playoffs? I bet you will. I bet lots of people will start to believe. The Dome will sell out and somehow, some way, the Saints will manage to lose to the 3-10 Panthers to knock themselves out of it. If that happens I\'m not so sure Haslett goes anywhere. Venturi maybe, but not Haslett. I don\'t want that. Just like sometimes you have to spend money to make money, I think the Saints need to lose games to be winners again. |
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