Has the addition of Pease made a difference?

BlackandBlue · 11-20-2004, 09:31 PM

It's easy to point to the players that proliferated under Pease during his previous tenure (Martin, Warren, Turnbull come to mind), but I thought I would look at the progress of this year compared to last year, and how we stack up to the rest of the NFC South.
Front four stats through the first nine games

Tackles
2003- 148
2004- 154

Sacks
2003- 12
2004- 19

Forced Fumbles
2003- 4
2004- 6

Top two defensive line players compared to the rest of the NFC South.

Player Name Tackles Team Rank Sacks Tackles for loss
Charles Grant 35 6th 7.5 3.5
Brian Young 31 8th 0.5 2.5

Atlanta
Patrick Kerney 40 4th 8.0 4
Ed Jasper 22 10th 1.0 3

Carolina
Julius Peppers 40 4th 6.0 3
Mike Rucker 23 9th 0.5 2

Tampa Bay
Greg Spires 43 5th 3.5 4.5
Chartric Darby 26 9th 0.0 0.5

There are two big differences in the teams schemes, but I don't feel that it has that dramatic an impact. First, this is the first year that Atlanta is running the 4-3 defense, which means a brand new scheme to learn. But because of how the 4-3 defense works, obviously, this has been a tremendous boost to Kerney and his play. Second, Tampa Bay runs that damn Cover 2, but the real burden of this defense falls on the linebackers and secondary, not the front four.
Injuries may have had an effect last year, but not as much as I thought. We lost Kenny Smith for the year, this year, and he started nine games for us last year, and played in 15. Whitehead started 10 games for us last year, but has only played in one this year. Howard started 8 last year, and has started 5 so far this year. Outside of a game here and there, there really haven't been any other major injuries.
Off topic, the biggest kick in the crotch I had was when I was going through other team's stats and saw how many had a linebacker topping their list in tackles, which has been pointed out here many, many times, so I won't go further.

johnnythesaint · 11-20-2004, 10:01 PM

BnB,
You alluded to the linebacker issue which is correct, but the telling statistics are the average yards per play, and the hurries & batted balls. Statistics are only a tool, a avid fan like yourself knows that D-lines true value is in how much they make the opponent account for them, with extra men, or quicker routes. You have to admit that our D-line play has not been a real factor since 2000, I wonder what happened since then? We all know.

BlackandBlue · 11-20-2004, 11:44 PM

Has he improved what he\'s had to work with? I think to a degree, you can judge this by the amount of sacks and forced fumbles we\'ve had. All he can do is teach. He can in no way make up for the lack of an effective one-technique DT, which has a negative chain reaction, down the line. Couple that with teams that have huge offensive linemen (Minnesota, Kansas City) will negate the speed (until late in the game, if we\'re lucky) our coaching staff thought was so necessary to have on defense in order to win, and you are going to have problems.

johnnythesaint · 11-21-2004, 12:10 AM

So D-line stands on an island. Has Pease made an impact you ask?. Has me crossing my fingers made an impact on the Saints winning? The answer is NO, it is fairly lame to blindly justify anything Pease has accomplished with this D-line. Sure you could probably root out statistics that might bolster your argument, point to a different area of weakness. The harsh reality is that nobody, I repeat nobody, fears the Saints D-line in any shape or form. Pease is inconsequential, and another pawn who will be tossed when the changes roll in, he has done nothing to secure his tenure. I challenge anyone to provide proof that the D-line has in any way shape or form gotten better.

BlackandBlue · 11-21-2004, 12:21 AM

Do you always put words in people\'s mouths?

Some people prefer cucumbers over pickles. Huh? What?

johnnythesaint · 11-21-2004, 12:35 AM

I\'m sorry I\'m lost, does that mean i\'ve said something wrong, you are crytic BnB , I am canadian, ther we have a gulf!!

BlackandBlue · 11-21-2004, 12:58 AM

You wanted to get off topic with this statement:

So D-line stands on an island.

I thought I would help along.

I know it\'s hard to disseminate the d-line from the rest of the defense, since they rely heavily upon the actions of one another. Every single person on this board is fully aware that our defense is one of, if not, the worst defense in football. Bringing up that topic, to me, would be akin to another Aaron Brooks sucks, no he doesn\'t, yes he does, threads. I barely answered my own question with

I think to a degree

I tried to stay consistent with the topic, by pointing out our biggest pitfall on the defensive line, the lack of a good 1 gapper, and the ramifications that go with. This was never really an argument for me, as much as you might have liked it to be, hell, I didn\'t realize Canadians were so quick to jump at an opportunity. Nowhere in my posts did I say he was shotgunning roses out of his ass.

The harsh reality is that nobody, I repeat nobody, fears the Saints D-line in any shape or form.

I think this is a bit rash, considering the double teams you see on our ends. Not that far from the truth, but I don\'t see this harsh reality. But that goes back to one of my original statements, in that, we\'ve got nothing up the middle. Sure, Young is great chasing the ball carrier down past the line of scrimmage, but he\'s got to have some help from the guy next to him, if he wants to consistently get into the backfield, and it\'s not happening.
I\'m the last person on this board that likes to refer to statistics to prove a point, I prefer to go with what I see on the field. I merely threw this out there to try and see what others had to say concerning the subject.

you are crytic BnB

Are you saying I\'m cryptic, a critic, or both? Any of those is fine with me.

[Edited on 21/11/2004 by BlackandBlue]

D_it_up · 11-21-2004, 08:48 AM

IMHO, Pease hasn\'t done much to improve the line at all. This is a guy who was supposed to whip these guys into shape and play fierce and fearsome football. I\'ve yet to see anything has happened to back this up. Charles Grant is the best player on the D-line the Saints have. He was a man on fire the first several games of the season, but he\'s being double-teamed so much now due to the ineffectiveness of the rest of the line. Brian Young has been just o.k., but nothing special. Darren Howard has become the J.D. Drew of the NFL. He gets a hangnail and has to sit out a game or two. Will Smith is a rookie who is learning, but still has a long way to go. Then the revolving door at the other NT with Harold Green, Jonathan \"What a Waste\" Sullivan, and that other guy who is so insignificant I can\'t even remember his name. Pease was so hyped by the coaching staff and many people in this forum that will go unnamed. However, like everything about this team before the season started, it was just that......HYPE! There is never a consistent pass rush, they\'re undersized up the middle and are overpowered by bigger, stronger offensive linemen, and there is never any continuity. In short, I do not think that Pease has lived up to the hype nor has his D-line done anything to warrant improvement.

subguy · 11-21-2004, 09:36 AM

If the LB\'s were in the forest and happened to make a tackle, and no one else was around, would it still make a sound?

mutineer10 · 11-21-2004, 10:23 AM

I\'m not sure whether or not I would consider our D-line feared, but having watched the Saints closely this year (especially at the games I\'ve managed to attend), it\'s certainly true that our ends are drawing an awful lot of double teams. A glaring standout in my memory was the Tampa Bay game, where Tampa stayed in the two TE set much of the time and the OT\'s and TE\'s really gave our DE\'s hell.

I certainly think, regardless of other issues, that the D-line is where we have the most talent on defense. It\'s possible the linemen would get better penetration and thereby more hurries/sacks if our LB\'s and secondary could provide better coverage. The run\'s where we\'re really hurting, and as many have pointed out, it sure would be nice to have Grady Jackson around to plug up some holes. Not that Grady was the answer to our prayers (he\'s getting old and is a bit injury prone), but he beat Sully any day of the week.

My wife moaned throughout the Minnesota game that we were only bringing the four D-linemen and dropping everyone else back into pass coverage (thus Mewelde Moore\'s rampage when the Vikes did run). I was frustrated to watch Culpepper stand back there for ages, too, but I thought it was probably a better idea than bringing the house and getting burned every play. Of course, Culpepper lit us up like a christmas tree no matter what we did...

I guess I can\'t decide if Pease has made drastic improvements to our D-line, but I certainly don\'t think they\'re any worse than last year (can\'t say that about our LB crew). Does \"no worse than last year\" count as a moral victory?

11-20-2004, 09:31 PM	#1
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Has the addition of Pease made a difference? It's easy to point to the players that proliferated under Pease during his previous tenure (Martin, Warren, Turnbull come to mind), but I thought I would look at the progress of this year compared to last year, and how we stack up to the rest of the NFC South. Front four stats through the first nine games Tackles 2003- 148 2004- 154 Sacks 2003- 12 2004- 19 Forced Fumbles 2003- 4 2004- 6 Top two defensive line players compared to the rest of the NFC South. Player Name Tackles Team Rank Sacks Tackles for loss Charles Grant 35 6th 7.5 3.5 Brian Young 31 8th 0.5 2.5 Atlanta Patrick Kerney 40 4th 8.0 4 Ed Jasper 22 10th 1.0 3 Carolina Julius Peppers 40 4th 6.0 3 Mike Rucker 23 9th 0.5 2 Tampa Bay Greg Spires 43 5th 3.5 4.5 Chartric Darby 26 9th 0.0 0.5 There are two big differences in the teams schemes, but I don't feel that it has that dramatic an impact. First, this is the first year that Atlanta is running the 4-3 defense, which means a brand new scheme to learn. But because of how the 4-3 defense works, obviously, this has been a tremendous boost to Kerney and his play. Second, Tampa Bay runs that damn Cover 2, but the real burden of this defense falls on the linebackers and secondary, not the front four. Injuries may have had an effect last year, but not as much as I thought. We lost Kenny Smith for the year, this year, and he started nine games for us last year, and played in 15. Whitehead started 10 games for us last year, but has only played in one this year. Howard started 8 last year, and has started 5 so far this year. Outside of a game here and there, there really haven't been any other major injuries. Off topic, the biggest kick in the crotch I had was when I was going through other team's stats and saw how many had a linebacker topping their list in tackles, which has been pointed out here many, many times, so I won't go further.

11-20-2004, 10:01 PM	#2
johnnythesaint 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 125	Has the addition of Pease made a difference? BnB, You alluded to the linebacker issue which is correct, but the telling statistics are the average yards per play, and the hurries & batted balls. Statistics are only a tool, a avid fan like yourself knows that D-lines true value is in how much they make the opponent account for them, with extra men, or quicker routes. You have to admit that our D-line play has not been a real factor since 2000, I wonder what happened since then? We all know.
johnnythesaint 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 125

11-20-2004, 11:44 PM	#3
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Has the addition of Pease made a difference? Has he improved what he\'s had to work with? I think to a degree, you can judge this by the amount of sacks and forced fumbles we\'ve had. All he can do is teach. He can in no way make up for the lack of an effective one-technique DT, which has a negative chain reaction, down the line. Couple that with teams that have huge offensive linemen (Minnesota, Kansas City) will negate the speed (until late in the game, if we\'re lucky) our coaching staff thought was so necessary to have on defense in order to win, and you are going to have problems.
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?

11-21-2004, 12:10 AM	#4
johnnythesaint 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 125	Has the addition of Pease made a difference? So D-line stands on an island. Has Pease made an impact you ask?. Has me crossing my fingers made an impact on the Saints winning? The answer is NO, it is fairly lame to blindly justify anything Pease has accomplished with this D-line. Sure you could probably root out statistics that might bolster your argument, point to a different area of weakness. The harsh reality is that nobody, I repeat nobody, fears the Saints D-line in any shape or form. Pease is inconsequential, and another pawn who will be tossed when the changes roll in, he has done nothing to secure his tenure. I challenge anyone to provide proof that the D-line has in any way shape or form gotten better.
johnnythesaint 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 125	Flying in from Canada to see the Dolphins game Will it be a Carnival or a Circus?

11-21-2004, 12:21 AM	#5
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Has the addition of Pease made a difference? Do you always put words in people\'s mouths? Some people prefer cucumbers over pickles. Huh? What?

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11-21-2004, 12:35 AM	#6
johnnythesaint 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 125	Has the addition of Pease made a difference? I\'m sorry I\'m lost, does that mean i\'ve said something wrong, you are crytic BnB , I am canadian, ther we have a gulf!!
johnnythesaint 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 125

11-21-2004, 12:58 AM	#7
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Has the addition of Pease made a difference? You wanted to get off topic with this statement: So D-line stands on an island. I thought I would help along. I know it\'s hard to disseminate the d-line from the rest of the defense, since they rely heavily upon the actions of one another. Every single person on this board is fully aware that our defense is one of, if not, the worst defense in football. Bringing up that topic, to me, would be akin to another Aaron Brooks sucks, no he doesn\'t, yes he does, threads. I barely answered my own question with I think to a degree I tried to stay consistent with the topic, by pointing out our biggest pitfall on the defensive line, the lack of a good 1 gapper, and the ramifications that go with. This was never really an argument for me, as much as you might have liked it to be, hell, I didn\'t realize Canadians were so quick to jump at an opportunity. Nowhere in my posts did I say he was shotgunning roses out of his ass. The harsh reality is that nobody, I repeat nobody, fears the Saints D-line in any shape or form. I think this is a bit rash, considering the double teams you see on our ends. Not that far from the truth, but I don\'t see this harsh reality. But that goes back to one of my original statements, in that, we\'ve got nothing up the middle. Sure, Young is great chasing the ball carrier down past the line of scrimmage, but he\'s got to have some help from the guy next to him, if he wants to consistently get into the backfield, and it\'s not happening. I\'m the last person on this board that likes to refer to statistics to prove a point, I prefer to go with what I see on the field. I merely threw this out there to try and see what others had to say concerning the subject. you are crytic BnB Are you saying I\'m cryptic, a critic, or both? Any of those is fine with me. [Edited on 21/11/2004 by BlackandBlue]
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?

11-21-2004, 08:48 AM	#8
D_it_up Faqda Falcons Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ruston, Louisiana Posts: 3,465 Blog Entries: 3	Has the addition of Pease made a difference? IMHO, Pease hasn\'t done much to improve the line at all. This is a guy who was supposed to whip these guys into shape and play fierce and fearsome football. I\'ve yet to see anything has happened to back this up. Charles Grant is the best player on the D-line the Saints have. He was a man on fire the first several games of the season, but he\'s being double-teamed so much now due to the ineffectiveness of the rest of the line. Brian Young has been just o.k., but nothing special. Darren Howard has become the J.D. Drew of the NFL. He gets a hangnail and has to sit out a game or two. Will Smith is a rookie who is learning, but still has a long way to go. Then the revolving door at the other NT with Harold Green, Jonathan \"What a Waste\" Sullivan, and that other guy who is so insignificant I can\'t even remember his name. Pease was so hyped by the coaching staff and many people in this forum that will go unnamed. However, like everything about this team before the season started, it was just that......HYPE! There is never a consistent pass rush, they\'re undersized up the middle and are overpowered by bigger, stronger offensive linemen, and there is never any continuity. In short, I do not think that Pease has lived up to the hype nor has his D-line done anything to warrant improvement.
	People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people.

11-21-2004, 09:36 AM	#9
subguy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: FL Posts: 2,095	Has the addition of Pease made a difference? If the LB\'s were in the forest and happened to make a tackle, and no one else was around, would it still make a sound?

11-21-2004, 10:23 AM	#10
mutineer10 Site Donor Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 1,739	Has the addition of Pease made a difference? I\'m not sure whether or not I would consider our D-line feared, but having watched the Saints closely this year (especially at the games I\'ve managed to attend), it\'s certainly true that our ends are drawing an awful lot of double teams. A glaring standout in my memory was the Tampa Bay game, where Tampa stayed in the two TE set much of the time and the OT\'s and TE\'s really gave our DE\'s hell. I certainly think, regardless of other issues, that the D-line is where we have the most talent on defense. It\'s possible the linemen would get better penetration and thereby more hurries/sacks if our LB\'s and secondary could provide better coverage. The run\'s where we\'re really hurting, and as many have pointed out, it sure would be nice to have Grady Jackson around to plug up some holes. Not that Grady was the answer to our prayers (he\'s getting old and is a bit injury prone), but he beat Sully any day of the week. My wife moaned throughout the Minnesota game that we were only bringing the four D-linemen and dropping everyone else back into pass coverage (thus Mewelde Moore\'s rampage when the Vikes did run). I was frustrated to watch Culpepper stand back there for ages, too, but I thought it was probably a better idea than bringing the house and getting burned every play. Of course, Culpepper lit us up like a christmas tree no matter what we did... I guess I can\'t decide if Pease has made drastic improvements to our D-line, but I certainly don\'t think they\'re any worse than last year (can\'t say that about our LB crew). Does \"no worse than last year\" count as a moral victory?