If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

What would you offer?

On June 8th, 2012. Rob Gronkowski signed a 6yr $53 m (16.5 guaranteed) with a $10m option in 2015 that would extent it to 2019.

That was the richest TE contract in history.

Statistically speaking, they're close in every category. Graham leads every category but he also played in 12 more games.

Gronk turned 23 in May, Graham will be 28 in November.

Many of us expect Graham to become the highest paid TE in NFL history but HOW do you write the contract?

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Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

he has not put up the numbers to be the #1 paid TE in the NFL. top 5 sure but not #1. Gronk is a better blocker and more versatile than Jimmy. heck we have WR that are better blockers than Jimmy. Sorry Jimmy game is to one denominational to get that #1 rating.face it when Jimmy is on the field other players must pick up and cover for his short comings. that is an extra roster spot used right there. His game still needs a lot of work.

plus he has to have mismatches to succeed. Gronk can do a better job against any CB than Jimmy. Jimmy still does not have the positioning battle down just yet.

he is still learning and does not have a ton experience. remember he did not start playing football till his senior year. he has a ways to go

Talk about highest paid next time around

same contract giving yearly rate of about 9 million but 3 yrs.

let him make more with performance insensitive in the contract

with no option

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

Agree Graham has work to do but the fact that he's played the position this well in a short time time is staggering. (yes, having Brees helps). What does bother me is that he's not a better blocker at 6'7" and 265lbs...

The "guaranteed" money should play the biggest role in his new contract.

I could see appx $9.3m average over 5 years with $18-20m guaranteed.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

I would base it around $9 million over 5 years with some incentive clauses kicking in if he improves on his blocking and route-running. and an option for the team to get out of the deal after the second year if he doesn't.

Love Jimmy as a dude but he is far from a complete player. The Saints can't be on the hook multiple years for that kind of money unless he starts improving his overall game.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

Above my pay grade. Just get a deal done, and make a Happy Saint!

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

The average value is probably not the hold up; it's the guaranteed amount and how much Graham gets upfront.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

I'm respectfully going to have to call BS on that. There simply isn't any number that applies to the TE position in the last 3 years that JG isn't #1 in.
None of those are numbers. As for Gronk, the most important number is that JG has played in 31 of the 32 last regular season games (and all the plyaoff games) while Gronk has only played in 18 of the last 32 games.

plus he has to have mismatches to succeed. Gronk can do a better job against any CB than Jimmy. Jimmy still does not have the positioning battle down just yet.
And he would kick it right back across the table, just as any reasonable person would. There are teams that will pay him $12 million right now if he were truly a free agent.

He's a 4 year veteran All-Pro NFL tight end. What happened in college is irrelevant. He's had the best 3 year run of a tight end in NFL history.

Honestly I'm so glad that Loomis is handling this. He, unlike many of the posters I've seen over the last few months, actually understands the value of his asset.

SFIAH

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

I agree. He is a very good receiving TE but lacks the ability to block like other good TEs. He is often injured and gets the dropsies. He also can kind of disappear. I don't think he deserves top TE money. I agree that he is a top 5 and think he should receive right around what Gronk gets and only that much because of inflation of the players salaries from year to year. If we don't get a good deal on his contract Loomis will have to do some major shaking of the money tree to sign Nicks and Jordon next year.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

telling you if jimmy gets a 5 year deal and when 32 rolls around i am betting the saints will be repeating the will smith contract all over again.

no matter which of these big TE we talk about it is starting to prove that the new rules in tackling are shorting their time on the field. those miss matches we all love put them up against harder hitting players that under cut with force.

By the way i have seen Gronk's effect on the field for a few years now living in Pats country and his impact with out the ball is by far greater than anything jimmy can do. that is what separates them

both will be lucky to make it to 32 and have the same level of play they had even banged up as they were last year.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

League min, since he needs to work on his blocking still?

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

I have mentioned this before and I wish to restate it ... I don't give a flying rat's ass about Graham's supposed blocking ability. Blocking TE's are nothing more than glorified offensive tackles. His value as an offensive threat far, far, far outweighs any perceived lack of blocking skills. It is not his job in Payton's scheme to be a blocker. He has more value as a decoy.

As for any supposed "dropsies", those claims all link back to two years ago when he was playing with the bad wrist.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

Franchise tag. Play and prove you can be a complete TE and not disappear when someone gets a little physical with you. Otherwise, sit at home with nothing and get traded next offseason. Of course, that's easy for a fan to say. LOL. Loomis will do what's best for the Saints.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

...and that is absolutely the last thing he would let happen. Graham is not your prototypical TE. He has a special skill set that makes him a match-up nightmare. A complete TE? So you are telling me you would rather give up the best receiving production in the league over the past three years to have something a little above average that meets your blocking criteria?

And, as for someone getting a little physical, you do realize that it was arguably the two most talented, physical CB's in the NFL who were given the latitude to absolutely mug Graham throughout the two contests where he "disappeared" ... Talib and Sherman, right?

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

His improved blocking skills sure could help some in the running game, even downfield. Colston sure doesn't mind blocking downfield. Plus methinks he can get better at separation against the likes of Talib and Sherman.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

Sometimes the round and round on this discussion gets a bit old. JG is a free agent. The Saints no longer have his rights. He is not under contract. The Saints cannot trade him unless they sign him to a contract first.

This is a definite instance of allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the excellent.

I don't think folks realize that the Saints do not have the leverage here. It's sheer lunacy to think it's better to pay $7, $15, or $31 million over 1,2, or 3 years respectively, with each and every dime on the current salary cap, then lose a HOF player than to work out a deal that keeps that HOF player here for a significant period at a reasoniable cap number for at least 3 years.

Jimmy Graham has nothing to prove. Fortunately Mickey Loomis understands that. Which is why the deal will get done.

SFIAH

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

Loomis is a financial genius. Our whole FO is really loaded with top notch people.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

Pardon me, but I have to say that you, unlike many of the rest of us, do not understand the value of being an all around player. You only grasp the receiving statistics. If you think blocking doesn't matter because it isn't a stat, then you must think Loomis is an idiot for paying guys like Evans and Grubbs big money. But you already said he's smarter than the rest of us. So what do you ACTUALLY believe?

Blocking is a big part of a tight end's job, whether you think it should be or not. You also don't take into account all of the drops. The Saints, in my opinion, try too hard to MAKE him a superstar by targeting him a million times every game. Jimmy has great skills, there's no denying that, but when the ball comes your way that much you're going to put up some numbers. What separates the good from the great is the ability to take advantage of every opportunity you have. But he drops a lot of passes.

This isn't to say he isn't an elite talent, or that we're better off without him. The question is whether he should be the highest paid tight end in league history and, as of now, I don't think he deserves that title. He'll undoubtedly get it though, because contracts have very little to do with player value anymore. It's all about guys wanting the distinction of highest paid ever, and agents' unwillingness to budge on anything less.

Just ask Joe freaking Flacco.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

First of all, let's address your first major misconception. For some reason you identify Graham with drops. Let's looks at a few facts.

In 2013 Graham was targeted 143 times and was credited with THREE drops (2.1%). That was the most targets in the entire NFL with a drop percentage as low as 2.1% or lower. The next closest was Alshon Jeffery at 3.4%. Others with far worse drop percentages included AJ Green, Julio Jones, Anquan Boldin, Vernon Davis, Josh Gordon, Calvin Johnson, Roddy White, Eric Decker, Demaryius Thomas, Reggie Wayne, Stevie Johnson, Miles Austin, etc!!!!

That my friend is a fact!

Now on to blocking. Graham is not recognized by experts as a bad blocker. He is simply not called upon in Payton's offensive scheme to be a blocker. You speak of being a "well rounder TE". A well rounded TE is one that does not excel at anything, but can perform well at all disciplines. I have used this example before ... Deion Sanders. Sander is widely recognized as the best cornerback in NFL history and he could not tackle worth a crap. Under your understanding of "value" a "well rounded" CB would be worth more than Sanders any day.

Oh, and the last time I looked, Grubbs and Evans are offensive guards whose sole duty is blocking.

You, sir, have shown me nothing that supports your view that Graham should not be the highest paid TE in the league when the rest of the civilized world feels he should.

I'm sorry, but your credibility level is currently in the red and sinking lower each and every time you hit "Submit Reply".

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

If I were Loomis, good question: Sign and trade would be my first option. Play for tag money next. Personally a sign and trade for draft picks would be good with me. Thanks for the question.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

Thank God you're not Loomis.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

ok i get your point

Jimmy suxs as a TE.
Jimmy suxs as a WR

He excels in the middle of the two.

their is your contract range.

7 mill vs 11 mill

9 mill a year it is

Then again i should come out cheaper just to tag him this year and next. :p

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

Sign our best asset, trade him for unknown commodities and take the cap hit? No no noooo

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

I would stand pat right where I was and if doesn't sign so be it. We wont have as much cap work to do next year when Jordan and Hicks want money. Jordan is going to command a top salary and deservedly so.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

So we are at t minus 72 hours until the 7/15 3pm deadline.
No appeal yet from JG and his straight from hell agent.

Are they going to appeal in the 11th hour?
Is Jimmy going to sign and be come the highest paid TE, and be happy about it?
Or, is he going to play under the tag?

Actual question for the smarter members of the group: if JG plays under the 1 year tag, when can we start negotiating again?

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

After July 15, the Graham can only sign a one-year deal with Saints if nothing has been done at that point. It can be can contain any number of terms, but it cannot be for longer than one year.

If he does sign the tag then you can start negotiating for the following year immediately, but you cannot have any deal effective until the one year deal is completed.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

The cap will not be an issue at all next year. It will be increasing by approximately $10 million and any deal Loomis makes with Jordan and Hicks will have a minimal hit in years one and two. It will also be about time to extend Brees' deal, thus freeing up additional cap. We are in very good shape moving forward.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

Your opinion could not possibly be more meaningless to me. You don't like what I have to say? Stop reading. I don't like what you have to say, but I don't reply to every thread you post in to tell you what a sanctimonious jerk you are. But now that I got that out of the way, let's address your dumb comments.

First off, I never said he was a bad blocker, though he surely isn't a good one. I recognize the scheme he is used in. He isn't used in blocking schemes because he's not a proficient enough blocker when we need to pick up some yards on the ground. That makes us more predictable. Just as was the case with the overuse of screens when Sproles was in the game. Guys like Gronkowski (as much as I hate to give him any credit) and Gonzalez when he was in his prime either have been or still are THE top receivers on their teams and yet they were able to stay on the field for running plays.

So don't give me that crap about the system he plays in... Back to the original reason that I even brought up blocking was that the person I replied to said that things like blocking aren't numbers. Which brought me to the point of saying that if blocking doesn't matter because it's not a number than why did we pay some much on Grubbs and Evans? Why not just pay them the minimum? It's obvious sarcasm, as we all understand the importance of linemen, and we should at the same time understand the importance of every player doing what it takes to win. Blocking is not the primary job of Jimmy Graham or Marques Colston or any other skill position, but it most certainly matters whether or not you can do it, and do it well. That was the point. But obviously you missed that and chose to go the 5 year old, captain obvious route and point out that Grubbs and Evans are paid to block... Genius.

And finally, I don't know who compiled those stats on drops but they obviously have a lot of requirements to constitute what they consider to be a drop. If you have any kind of decent chance to make the catch, you need to make the catch. I saw him drop many balls in traffic that other receivers on our team would have caught. There is no way in hell that he dropped only 3 passes. I'm not about to be the only person who recognizes that. He can make great catches, and as I've said before, he is the most TALENTED receiving tight end in the league. If you want to make him the highest paid TE based on that, that's you. I would rather see him be more consistent. He has the raw numbers when you just look at season stats, but he tends to disappear at really bad times.

It's not unlike the opinions of most on Tony Romo. We can look at raw numbers all day long and argue that he's worth all this money, but where are you when it matters the most? I'd like to think Jimmy can make that next step and I'm not in any way suggesting that he won't. But this isn't about the future. It's about what I've seen up to this point.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

I am afraid that Graham did only drop THREE balls this past season. Perhaps your image of Graham's supposed tendency is based upon 2012, instead. Graham did have 14 drops in 2012, but one must consider that he was playing with an injured wrist. In 2011 his drop percentage was only 3.4% with five drops in 149 possibilities.

As for disappearing, any player would disappear with the muggings that the officials allowed from NE's Talib and Seattle's Sherman. It was during that NE game that Graham suffered the Plantar fasciitis injury that slowed him for the remainder of the season. I can see that you place the blame for those loses on Graham. He was doubled repeatedly during both of those games which should have freed up someone else one would think. Any player can be taken out of a game, regardless of how good they are, but in doing so the defense risks some other player blowing up instead. It was the rest of the Saints' offense that deserve the blame in those games, not Graham.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

That's good to hear. I had no idea. To hear some people tell it we are screwed cap wise until Bree's and others contracts are up. Good news because I think both Hicks and Jordan will ball this year and earn big paydays.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

I could see a 3 year 10 mil a year.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

You are going by official stats which only give credit for obvious drops. They don't think losing the ball after being hit counts. But the great one's sure count it against themselves.

And you're dead wrong about the NE game. They had Talib on him, period. I never once saw him doubled, and even if he was it would have been very seldom. You think Talib would play any differently against the rest of the league if he can just mug people and get away with it? Of course not, yet he completely shut down Graham and struggled against pretty much everyone else the rest of the season. That didn't speak well of jimmy. Because that's just it. If you're physical with Jimmy, he gets frustrated. More and more teams are going to start banging him around, because that's what you have to do. Does Calvin Johnson get doubled? Does he get mugged? Does anybody shut him down? The first two answers are yes, and the last one is NO.

I don't blame the loss to NE only on Jimmy, but as someone who wants to be the highest paid TE I sure expect him to do more than absolutely nothing as he did in that game. I Remember how Jimmy played in that playoff game against the 49ers a couple years ago. That's the intensity I want to see. I just haven't seen him respond to that type of challenge since then.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

Calvin Johnson makes over $18million per year. The discussion is $7million vs. $12 million. Nobody has suggested the Saints pay Graham "Calvin Johnson money". Apples and Oranges.

Although you might want to check out who's made more touchdowns over the last three seasons.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

Your vitriol against Graham then is based solely upon money that is not coming out of your pocket, and is not going to affect the franchise as a whole moving forward based upon the ever increasing cap. It seems to me that your hatred may be more closely related to jealousy that he has an agent that can make these demands and that he has a union that can fund the fight.

The simple fact is that the Saints are a better team with him than without him. If you would rather not have him as a Saint because of your personal bias then you can gladly move on to another franchise. You will not be missed.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

The argument is not about who makes more money, I'm talking about how great players respond to adversity. It doesn't matter how much more money Calvin Makes, because the Lions have their own priorities.

As for who has more touchdowns, I've already responded to you when you said the exact same thing in another thread. Touchdowns have more to do with opportunity than anything else. I care more about what you do between 20's that puts your team in that position. Drew Brees is light years better than Stafford and he has more decoys on the field than Stafford has had. The lions don't get in the redzone nearly as much as we do. Do I really need to continue with this comparison?

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

I am a Saints fan. I want my team to win. Does Graham give me a better chance to win than lessor TE's? Yes. I don't give a flying rat's ass what he is paid. I want him on my team. What is your frickin' hangup about the money?

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

You are completely out of line. Out of everything that I just explained to you, point by point, you didn't comprehend one thing? You instead accuse me of hatred? Where did I say anything about hating him? I can easily recognize his potential, yet I recognize the reasons why I should question his ability to step up.

I've already said before that we're not a better team without him. But if we're going to commit to the type of money he wants than he better damn well figure out how to be physical.

I have no reason to be jealous of Jimmy. I don't make anywhere near as much money as one single player in the NFL. Yet am I talking all of them? No, I'm talking about one player. I only care about what he makes as it relates to the Saints and how it affects the rest of the team. If he learns to be more physical, than he's worth whatever they give him.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

Everything I have said up to this point is my hangup. This isn't a normal business. There is a salary cap. I understand he deserves more than he has been making. I just don't want to see a ridiculously high number thrown at him, because we're already on the hook with Drew.

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

There isn't a player on any roster that couldn't be better than they are, but why is it that you tie it into his right to earn as much as he can? I want Brees to be better. I want Colston to be better. I want Graham to be better. Why the constant bashing on Graham, who is widely recognized by ALL of his peers as one of the very best TE's in the league?

And how does it affect the rest of the team? If he wasn't a member of the team they would not be as good. It is as simple as that. Your hangup is about money for some reason when it should mean nothing to you personally. It chaps your ass. It is obvious. Why?

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

The Saints averaged less than two points/game more than the Lions, there weren't that many red zone opportunities.

What do decoy's have to do with anything. I could easily argue Graham has to share the ball more than Johnson. Graham was targeted 144 times, Johnson targeted 156. That argument works both ways.

OK, let's expand the definition of "shut down" then. How many games did Calvin Johnson get held to less than a hundred yards and no touchdowns?
How many games did Jimmy Graham get held to less than a hundred yards and no touchdowns?

Re: If you were Loomis writing Graham's contract
 

Why does it chap you ass what I think? It should have no affect on you. Your hatred of any opinion that does not match yours is painfully obvious.

you have essentially asked me the same question about 10 different ways. What is your problem with comprehension? It matters to me what they pay him because there are limits to what a team can afford. I would rather have him on my team than not, but not at the cost of losing more players down the road. I am a fan of this TEAM. I'm not bashing ANYONE. I'm stating facts that you don't like to hear. You don't like it when I say he's not physical enough. Too bad. I want this team to succeed, and so I am thinking about what this team can afford right now. If you don't agree, i don't care. It's just my opinion. I gave my opinion. I will always give my opinion. I'm always talking the Saints, though, no matter what it's about or whether anyone agrees or not. Know why? because I give a damn.