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Center ILB,and kicker worry me

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by blackangold Lofton and Hawthorne are average at best. They are still better suited playing the MLB spot in a 43. Fact is neither of them are fast enough to be a ILB. I personally think Humber out-performs ...

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Old 07-13-2014, 05:54 AM   #1
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Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me

Originally Posted by blackangold View Post
Lofton and Hawthorne are average at best. They are still better suited playing the MLB spot in a 43. Fact is neither of them are fast enough to be a ILB. I personally think Humber out-performs both of them, but unless they get injured Humber won't start. Humber won't start because paying Lofton or Hawthorne to sit on the bench won't look good (let's call this the Shanle situation). Fort is a development project, but maybe he'll come along fast enough.

We aren't in trouble at ILB, but out of every other position on D, I think it's our weakest link.
I don't agree that they aren't fast enough to be inside linebackers. How many fast inside linebackers are there? Lofton is one of the quicker linebackers in the league, and I value quickness more than speed in an inside backer. There's a reason Lofton is always near the top of the league in tackles. He's pretty good at getting to the ball. The problem I have with him is that he doesn't wrap up consistently in the open field. I think he would lead the league in tackles every year if he finished a little more consistently. But overall, he's solid. Hawthorne is what he is. He's not bad, and he's not that great, but he holds his own reasonably well.

You can't buy all of the best players in the world. You have to choose where you want your strengths to be and invest in those areas, and then do what you can to make the other parts competitive. In our case, we've invested a lot in the secondary. You really have to get lucky to come up with pro bowlers at other positions. We got lucky already with Galette, even though he didn't make the pro bowl, it's pretty obvious that getting 12 sacks out of him was a big deal. There are some young guys at linebacker who will hopefully surprise us this year, but if not, I really don't think our linebackers are that much of a weakness. I do agree that they are the weakest of the unit's, though.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 07-13-2014, 01:09 PM   #2
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Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me

Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
I don't agree that they aren't fast enough to be inside linebackers. How many fast inside linebackers are there? Lofton is one of the quicker linebackers in the league, and I value quickness more than speed in an inside backer. There's a reason Lofton is always near the top of the league in tackles. He's pretty good at getting to the ball. The problem I have with him is that he doesn't wrap up consistently in the open field. I think he would lead the league in tackles every year if he finished a little more consistently. But overall, he's solid. Hawthorne is what he is. He's not bad, and he's not that great, but he holds his own reasonably well.

You can't buy all of the best players in the world. You have to choose where you want your strengths to be and invest in those areas, and then do what you can to make the other parts competitive. In our case, we've invested a lot in the secondary. You really have to get lucky to come up with pro bowlers at other positions. We got lucky already with Galette, even though he didn't make the pro bowl, it's pretty obvious that getting 12 sacks out of him was a big deal. There are some young guys at linebacker who will hopefully surprise us this year, but if not, I really don't think our linebackers are that much of a weakness. I do agree that they are the weakest of the unit's, though.
Name the best 34 ILBs in the game right now.

Willis and Bowman hands down.

They are great because of their quickness. Lofton and Hawthorne are not bad players, all I argue is that they are average.

Don't take my word for it though:
"Linebacker

If the Saints could’ve saved any money getting rid of Curtis Lofton and David Hawthorne, they’d likely have been among the group released already. As it stands, the two certainly didn’t play up to expectations last season, combining to grade at -16.6 during the regular season, and both large culprits for a defense that allowed 4.5 YPC on the ground. Lofton wasn’t particularly bad in any one area, though he missed 17 tackles on the season. While most of Hawthorne’s struggles came in pass coverage – at least until the playoffs, when he graded at -7.2 in run defense in two games.

On the outside, the Saints need to find a player to start opposite Junior Galette. Presumably Victor Butler will be that guy, though a player coming off of an ACL injury is never sure thing and depth never a bad one. The team could resign Parys Haralson, but could serve to find someone more dangerous as a pass rusher."

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...rleans-saints/
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Old 07-13-2014, 02:08 PM   #3
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Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me

Originally Posted by blackangold View Post
"Linebacker

If the Saints could’ve saved any money getting rid of Curtis Lofton and David Hawthorne, they’d likely have been among the group released already. As it stands, the two certainly didn’t play up to expectations last season, combining to grade at -16.6 during the regular season, and both large culprits for a defense that allowed 4.5 YPC on the ground. Lofton wasn’t particularly bad in any one area, though he missed 17 tackles on the season. While most of Hawthorne’s struggles came in pass coverage – at least until the playoffs, when he graded at -7.2 in run defense in two games.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...rleans-saints/
I generally like PFF but this is hogwash. Those ratings don't take into account a whole lot of factors. Such as the fact that we played in a base nickel almost the whole year, which pretty much guarantees you're going to get run on from time to time. Or that Lofton is the brains of the defense responsible for calling plays, audibles and making sure that everybody is lined up right and basically being a coach on the field. Who cares if we gave up 4.5 yards per carry or were only 19th in run defense. We were 4th in total defense. That's what matters.

Again, you do not have the 4th best defense in football if you have bad linebackers. Period. It's common sense.
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Old 07-13-2014, 02:51 PM   #4
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Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas View Post

Again, you do not have the 4th best defense in football if you have bad linebackers. Period. It's common sense.
Yep. That's the bottom line.
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Old 07-13-2014, 02:55 PM   #5
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Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas View Post
I generally like PFF but this is hogwash. Those ratings don't take into account a whole lot of factors. Such as the fact that we played in a base nickel almost the whole year, which pretty much guarantees you're going to get run on from time to time. Or that Lofton is the brains of the defense responsible for calling plays, audibles and making sure that everybody is lined up right and basically being a coach on the field. Who cares if we gave up 4.5 yards per carry or were only 19th in run defense. We were 4th in total defense. That's what matters.

Again, you do not have the 4th best defense in football if you have bad linebackers. Period. It's common sense.
Like I said three other times; I don't think they are 'bad', but they are certainly our weakest position on defense.

As far as PFF goes; I generally trust the evaluations because it's not all based on statistics. If you understand how the grading works it's quite impressive, although everything is open to interpretation.
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Old 07-14-2014, 06:27 AM   #6
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Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me

Originally Posted by blackangold View Post
Name the best 34 ILBs in the game right now.

Willis and Bowman hands down.

They are great because of their quickness. Lofton and Hawthorne are not bad players, all I argue is that they are average.

Don't take my word for it though:
"Linebacker

If the Saints could’ve saved any money getting rid of Curtis Lofton and David Hawthorne, they’d likely have been among the group released already. As it stands, the two certainly didn’t play up to expectations last season, combining to grade at -16.6 during the regular season, and both large culprits for a defense that allowed 4.5 YPC on the ground. Lofton wasn’t particularly bad in any one area, though he missed 17 tackles on the season. While most of Hawthorne’s struggles came in pass coverage – at least until the playoffs, when he graded at -7.2 in run defense in two games.

On the outside, the Saints need to find a player to start opposite Junior Galette. Presumably Victor Butler will be that guy, though a player coming off of an ACL injury is never sure thing and depth never a bad one. The team could resign Parys Haralson, but could serve to find someone more dangerous as a pass rusher."

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...rleans-saints/
Right. And that's why I said I value quickness more than speed. Willis and Bowman are better finishers, however, and that's why I don't put Lofton or Hawthorne in the category of elite. I mentioned that Lofton misses too many tackles. So really, there's not much we're in disagreement with. They are the weakest link, but I don't view them as a weakness as compared to other teams. I think they are good enough given the surrounding cast.

But if Willis wants to play here for a bag of peanuts (which is undoubtedly about all we could give him) then I would obviously prefer him.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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