Center ILB,and kicker worry me

triman · 07-12-2014, 06:53 PM

The aforementioned positions are of concern to me Lelito is totally unproven,having Goodwin is good insurance but I .can't help thinking that the saints are hoping for Lelito claims the spot Our starting ILBs have been below average.If Fort can contribute I would be very happy. Graham and Dimke will battle it out in training camp. Neither of these guys have my confidence .

hagan714 · 07-12-2014, 07:21 PM

tired of a gamble on the O line yet again this year? same here.

ILB are solid in run support but neither seems to have a clue in pass coverage. another year quick hitters over the middle to negate the pass rush.

kickers? oh god lets pray

ChrisXVI · 07-12-2014, 09:02 PM

Thanks, I was wondering about that.

|Mitch| · 07-12-2014, 09:54 PM

I think Humber and Reddick see more playing time; Humber at least seems to be decent in pass coverage...

Jack Vegas · 07-12-2014, 10:56 PM

Lofton and Hawthorne are not anywhere close to "below average." I wonder what some people think they are seeing when they are supposedly watching Saints games. They are both good, solid linebackers and would be an upgrade for 2/3rds of NFL teams.

blackangold · 07-13-2014, 12:26 AM

Lofton and Hawthorne are average at best. They are still better suited playing the MLB spot in a 43. Fact is neither of them are fast enough to be a ILB. I personally think Humber out-performs both of them, but unless they get injured Humber won't start. Humber won't start because paying Lofton or Hawthorne to sit on the bench won't look good (let's call this the Shanle situation). Fort is a development project, but maybe he'll come along fast enough.

We aren't in trouble at ILB, but out of every other position on D, I think it's our weakest link.

burningmetal · 07-13-2014, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by blackangold

Lofton and Hawthorne are average at best. They are still better suited playing the MLB spot in a 43. Fact is neither of them are fast enough to be a ILB. I personally think Humber out-performs both of them, but unless they get injured Humber won't start. Humber won't start because paying Lofton or Hawthorne to sit on the bench won't look good (let's call this the Shanle situation). Fort is a development project, but maybe he'll come along fast enough.

We aren't in trouble at ILB, but out of every other position on D, I think it's our weakest link.

I don't agree that they aren't fast enough to be inside linebackers. How many fast inside linebackers are there? Lofton is one of the quicker linebackers in the league, and I value quickness more than speed in an inside backer. There's a reason Lofton is always near the top of the league in tackles. He's pretty good at getting to the ball. The problem I have with him is that he doesn't wrap up consistently in the open field. I think he would lead the league in tackles every year if he finished a little more consistently. But overall, he's solid. Hawthorne is what he is. He's not bad, and he's not that great, but he holds his own reasonably well.

You can't buy all of the best players in the world. You have to choose where you want your strengths to be and invest in those areas, and then do what you can to make the other parts competitive. In our case, we've invested a lot in the secondary. You really have to get lucky to come up with pro bowlers at other positions. We got lucky already with Galette, even though he didn't make the pro bowl, it's pretty obvious that getting 12 sacks out of him was a big deal. There are some young guys at linebacker who will hopefully surprise us this year, but if not, I really don't think our linebackers are that much of a weakness. I do agree that they are the weakest of the unit's, though.

blackangold · 07-13-2014, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

I don't agree that they aren't fast enough to be inside linebackers. How many fast inside linebackers are there? Lofton is one of the quicker linebackers in the league, and I value quickness more than speed in an inside backer. There's a reason Lofton is always near the top of the league in tackles. He's pretty good at getting to the ball. The problem I have with him is that he doesn't wrap up consistently in the open field. I think he would lead the league in tackles every year if he finished a little more consistently. But overall, he's solid. Hawthorne is what he is. He's not bad, and he's not that great, but he holds his own reasonably well.

You can't buy all of the best players in the world. You have to choose where you want your strengths to be and invest in those areas, and then do what you can to make the other parts competitive. In our case, we've invested a lot in the secondary. You really have to get lucky to come up with pro bowlers at other positions. We got lucky already with Galette, even though he didn't make the pro bowl, it's pretty obvious that getting 12 sacks out of him was a big deal. There are some young guys at linebacker who will hopefully surprise us this year, but if not, I really don't think our linebackers are that much of a weakness. I do agree that they are the weakest of the unit's, though.

Name the best 34 ILBs in the game right now.

Willis and Bowman hands down.

They are great because of their quickness. Lofton and Hawthorne are not bad players, all I argue is that they are average.

Don't take my word for it though:
"Linebacker

If the Saints could’ve saved any money getting rid of Curtis Lofton and David Hawthorne, they’d likely have been among the group released already. As it stands, the two certainly didn’t play up to expectations last season, combining to grade at -16.6 during the regular season, and both large culprits for a defense that allowed 4.5 YPC on the ground. Lofton wasn’t particularly bad in any one area, though he missed 17 tackles on the season. While most of Hawthorne’s struggles came in pass coverage – at least until the playoffs, when he graded at -7.2 in run defense in two games.

On the outside, the Saints need to find a player to start opposite Junior Galette. Presumably Victor Butler will be that guy, though a player coming off of an ACL injury is never sure thing and depth never a bad one. The team could resign Parys Haralson, but could serve to find someone more dangerous as a pass rusher."

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...rleans-saints/

Jack Vegas · 07-13-2014, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by blackangold

"Linebacker

If the Saints could’ve saved any money getting rid of Curtis Lofton and David Hawthorne, they’d likely have been among the group released already. As it stands, the two certainly didn’t play up to expectations last season, combining to grade at -16.6 during the regular season, and both large culprits for a defense that allowed 4.5 YPC on the ground. Lofton wasn’t particularly bad in any one area, though he missed 17 tackles on the season. While most of Hawthorne’s struggles came in pass coverage – at least until the playoffs, when he graded at -7.2 in run defense in two games.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...rleans-saints/

I generally like PFF but this is hogwash. Those ratings don't take into account a whole lot of factors. Such as the fact that we played in a base nickel almost the whole year, which pretty much guarantees you're going to get run on from time to time. Or that Lofton is the brains of the defense responsible for calling plays, audibles and making sure that everybody is lined up right and basically being a coach on the field. Who cares if we gave up 4.5 yards per carry or were only 19th in run defense. We were 4th in total defense. That's what matters.

Again, you do not have the 4th best defense in football if you have bad linebackers. Period. It's common sense.

ScottF · 07-13-2014, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas

Again, you do not have the 4th best defense in football if you have bad linebackers. Period. It's common sense.

Yep. That's the bottom line.

07-12-2014, 06:53 PM	#1
triman 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 783	Center ILB,and kicker worry me The aforementioned positions are of concern to me Lelito is totally unproven,having Goodwin is good insurance but I .can't help thinking that the saints are hoping for Lelito claims the spot Our starting ILBs have been below average.If Fort can contribute I would be very happy. Graham and Dimke will battle it out in training camp. Neither of these guys have my confidence . hagan714, Rugby Saint II and halloween 65 like this.
triman 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 783

07-12-2014, 07:21 PM	#2
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me tired of a gamble on the O line yet again this year? same here. ILB are solid in run support but neither seems to have a clue in pass coverage. another year quick hitters over the middle to negate the pass rush. kickers? oh god lets pray Rugby Saint II and halloween 65 like this.
	Last edited by hagan714; 07-13-2014 at 03:04 PM..

07-12-2014, 09:02 PM	#3
ChrisXVI 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 11,482	Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me Thanks, I was wondering about that.

07-12-2014, 09:54 PM	#4
\|Mitch\| 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Alexandria, La Posts: 11,303	Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me I think Humber and Reddick see more playing time; Humber at least seems to be decent in pass coverage...

07-12-2014, 10:56 PM	#5
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me Lofton and Hawthorne are not anywhere close to "below average." I wonder what some people think they are seeing when they are supposedly watching Saints games. They are both good, solid linebackers and would be an upgrade for 2/3rds of NFL teams. ScottF, AsylumGuido, savoyk and 1 others like this.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

07-13-2014, 12:26 AM	#6
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me Lofton and Hawthorne are average at best. They are still better suited playing the MLB spot in a 43. Fact is neither of them are fast enough to be a ILB. I personally think Humber out-performs both of them, but unless they get injured Humber won't start. Humber won't start because paying Lofton or Hawthorne to sit on the bench won't look good (let's call this the Shanle situation). Fort is a development project, but maybe he'll come along fast enough. We aren't in trouble at ILB, but out of every other position on D, I think it's our weakest link.

07-13-2014, 05:54 AM	#7
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me Originally Posted by blackangold Lofton and Hawthorne are average at best. They are still better suited playing the MLB spot in a 43. Fact is neither of them are fast enough to be a ILB. I personally think Humber out-performs both of them, but unless they get injured Humber won't start. Humber won't start because paying Lofton or Hawthorne to sit on the bench won't look good (let's call this the Shanle situation). Fort is a development project, but maybe he'll come along fast enough. We aren't in trouble at ILB, but out of every other position on D, I think it's our weakest link. I don't agree that they aren't fast enough to be inside linebackers. How many fast inside linebackers are there? Lofton is one of the quicker linebackers in the league, and I value quickness more than speed in an inside backer. There's a reason Lofton is always near the top of the league in tackles. He's pretty good at getting to the ball. The problem I have with him is that he doesn't wrap up consistently in the open field. I think he would lead the league in tackles every year if he finished a little more consistently. But overall, he's solid. Hawthorne is what he is. He's not bad, and he's not that great, but he holds his own reasonably well. You can't buy all of the best players in the world. You have to choose where you want your strengths to be and invest in those areas, and then do what you can to make the other parts competitive. In our case, we've invested a lot in the secondary. You really have to get lucky to come up with pro bowlers at other positions. We got lucky already with Galette, even though he didn't make the pro bowl, it's pretty obvious that getting 12 sacks out of him was a big deal. There are some young guys at linebacker who will hopefully surprise us this year, but if not, I really don't think our linebackers are that much of a weakness. I do agree that they are the weakest of the unit's, though.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

07-13-2014, 01:09 PM	#8
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me Originally Posted by burningmetal I don't agree that they aren't fast enough to be inside linebackers. How many fast inside linebackers are there? Lofton is one of the quicker linebackers in the league, and I value quickness more than speed in an inside backer. There's a reason Lofton is always near the top of the league in tackles. He's pretty good at getting to the ball. The problem I have with him is that he doesn't wrap up consistently in the open field. I think he would lead the league in tackles every year if he finished a little more consistently. But overall, he's solid. Hawthorne is what he is. He's not bad, and he's not that great, but he holds his own reasonably well. You can't buy all of the best players in the world. You have to choose where you want your strengths to be and invest in those areas, and then do what you can to make the other parts competitive. In our case, we've invested a lot in the secondary. You really have to get lucky to come up with pro bowlers at other positions. We got lucky already with Galette, even though he didn't make the pro bowl, it's pretty obvious that getting 12 sacks out of him was a big deal. There are some young guys at linebacker who will hopefully surprise us this year, but if not, I really don't think our linebackers are that much of a weakness. I do agree that they are the weakest of the unit's, though. Name the best 34 ILBs in the game right now. Willis and Bowman hands down. They are great because of their quickness. Lofton and Hawthorne are not bad players, all I argue is that they are average. Don't take my word for it though: "Linebacker If the Saints could’ve saved any money getting rid of Curtis Lofton and David Hawthorne, they’d likely have been among the group released already. As it stands, the two certainly didn’t play up to expectations last season, combining to grade at -16.6 during the regular season, and both large culprits for a defense that allowed 4.5 YPC on the ground. Lofton wasn’t particularly bad in any one area, though he missed 17 tackles on the season. While most of Hawthorne’s struggles came in pass coverage – at least until the playoffs, when he graded at -7.2 in run defense in two games. On the outside, the Saints need to find a player to start opposite Junior Galette. Presumably Victor Butler will be that guy, though a player coming off of an ACL injury is never sure thing and depth never a bad one. The team could resign Parys Haralson, but could serve to find someone more dangerous as a pass rusher." https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...rleans-saints/ Rugby Saint II and Utah_Saint like this.

07-13-2014, 02:08 PM	#9
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me Originally Posted by blackangold "Linebacker If the Saints could’ve saved any money getting rid of Curtis Lofton and David Hawthorne, they’d likely have been among the group released already. As it stands, the two certainly didn’t play up to expectations last season, combining to grade at -16.6 during the regular season, and both large culprits for a defense that allowed 4.5 YPC on the ground. Lofton wasn’t particularly bad in any one area, though he missed 17 tackles on the season. While most of Hawthorne’s struggles came in pass coverage – at least until the playoffs, when he graded at -7.2 in run defense in two games. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...rleans-saints/ I generally like PFF but this is hogwash. Those ratings don't take into account a whole lot of factors. Such as the fact that we played in a base nickel almost the whole year, which pretty much guarantees you're going to get run on from time to time. Or that Lofton is the brains of the defense responsible for calling plays, audibles and making sure that everybody is lined up right and basically being a coach on the field. Who cares if we gave up 4.5 yards per carry or were only 19th in run defense. We were 4th in total defense. That's what matters. Again, you do not have the 4th best defense in football if you have bad linebackers. Period. It's common sense.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

07-13-2014, 02:51 PM	#10
ScottF 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6,324	Re: Center ILB,and kicker worry me Originally Posted by Jack Vegas Again, you do not have the 4th best defense in football if you have bad linebackers. Period. It's common sense. Yep. That's the bottom line.

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