Overrated and it's been proven

GumboBC · 12-29-2004, 05:35 PM

Once upon a time I had folks telling me how coaching and leadership was the "key".

Hmmm... Well........

How's ol' Parcells doing? All that great coaching ain't doing a thing is it? Seems ol' Bill might have to go back to the drawing board.

And I believe leadership has gotting the Panthers only 7-wins out of 15 games.

And how 'bout Gruden? Players turning on the man? What's up with that? From Super Bowl champs to chumps.

I said along that players are most responsible for the whole thing.

What about Venturi? Is he responsible for the improvement for our defense? According to some, he must be. I think it's some of the new guys on defense. Hey, but maybe you guys are right. Maybe it is Venturi. ;)

Remember.. Coaches call plays and the players MAKE the plays.

Have some of you guys learned yet?

Or do you blame Parcells for the lack of discipline on the Cowboy's team?

This should be interesting :P

spkb25 · 12-29-2004, 06:33 PM

gumbo thats an interesting point. im not going to disagree with u. i think it is some our new guys on and maybe they have changed the sytem some. that im not sure of. i think bockwodlt helps and the fact that mckenzie has grasped the system. i also think thomas has been terrible all year and having brown on the other side of mckenzie helps. but i think u have a very goods argument when bringing up bill parcells. but coaching has to play a part some way. because how do u explaine kotite taking over the eagles and making the playoffs his first year then with basically the same guys the 2nd season and seasons afterwards tanking itr. talent can onlpy take you so far. but i still think that your right in your argument to a good extent. and the point is very valid

GumboBC · 12-29-2004, 06:42 PM

spkb25

Sure, coaching plays a part. Just not a bigger part than the players who actually make the plays. To me... coaching is way overrated.

Some folks (you know who you are) think coaching is the cure for every thing.

I think Favre and Reggie White played more of a role in getting the Pack to the SuperBowl. He sure as heck wasn\'t Holmgren. How\'s Holmgren doing now?>

And how\'s Shannahan doing without Elway?

How did Jimmy Johnson do in Miami without all his players from Dallas?

And Gruden?

Hell, even blind man can see it has more to do with the players.

It also takes some good coaching. You can\'t have a mooron calling the plays, obviously.

PEACE

RDOX · 12-29-2004, 11:41 PM

spkb25

Sure, coaching plays a part. Just not a bigger part than the players who actually make the plays.

It also takes some good coaching. You can\'t have a mooron calling the plays, obviously.

PEACE

I don\'t know about not having a moron calling plays, we have two on the sidelines every Sunday: McCarthy and Venturi.

GumboBC, it takes both coaching and playing. The coach needs to be the person in overall control of HOW the game plan will be drawn up and executed. The players need to be in control of the EXECUTION of the game plan, each player with his own speciality. At the professional level a lot less teaching and a lot more motivation and strategy is required than that of a PeeWee coach, obviously. But a coach at any level PeeWee to NFL needs to be able to communicate, motivate, direct, assist, and teach players what they want in order to execute the game plan.

This has been my take on the Saints. Hazlett and company may have drawn up a game plan on both offense and defense that is Super Bowl caliber, but the players do not put the plan into execution because they have very little football \"sense,\" and this set of coaches hasn\'t done the things necessary to develop that football \"sense.\" This is my biggest complaint about Brooks. No football \"sense.\" This could go on and on. But the major role of a coach at this level is to plan and ensure that the plan is carried out. That ain\'t happening that I see.

SaintPez · 12-30-2004, 12:16 AM

It is true. coaching and the players go hand in hand. As a coach, you are supposed to put in a game plan to help you win with the people you have on your team. Look at Billick in Baltimore. He is supposed to be an offensive guru, but with no dynamic players on offense, he won a championship with defense. Look at their defense now since Marvin Lewis left. They still have ray lewis and chris mcallister, but they are not even in the top 5 defenses in the league. The new defensive coach has switched to a 3-4. there you have it. the same dynamic players on defense, with a different coach <who may or may not know what his players do best> and a totally different result.
I think it its the right mix of players <making plays> and coaching < guys who put their players in systems or positions to make those plays>

Nuff Said.

GumboBC · 12-30-2004, 12:22 AM

It is true. coaching and the players go hand in hand. As a coach, you are supposed to put in a game plan to help you win with the people you have on your team. Look at Billick in Baltimore. He is supposed to be an offensive guru, but with no dynamic players on offense, he won a championship with defense. Look at their defense now since Marvin Lewis left. They still have ray lewis and chris mcallister, but they are not even in the top 5 defenses in the league. The new defensive coach has switched to a 3-4. there you have it. the same dynamic players on defense, with a different coach <who may or may not know what his players do best> and a totally different result.
I think it its the right mix of players <making plays> and coaching < guys who put their players in systems or positions to make those plays>

Nuff Said.

I hate the Nuff Said ending. Well.. It ain\'t enough said for me.

Explain to me why the Panthers went from Champs to Chumps? They still have the same coaches?

And how bout Parcells.

Just talk about those two coaches and don\'t get sidetracked.

Tobias-Reiper · 12-30-2004, 12:27 AM

..why am I getting into this one...

Bill Parcells is allowed a bad season... one bad season doesn\'t mean the man can\'t coach.. besides, the man is what 60-some years old closer to 70? Maybe he doesn\'t have it in him anymore to go at the same pace he did before, who knows...

..the Panthers have 14 players in IR... lost early in the season were their #1 WR, #1, #2, and #3 RB, their #1 (and arguably the best in the league) DT... their starting RB was the 3rd FB when the season started... only the center is the same player in the o-line... their QB is playing with a fractured thumb in his throwing hand... they have rookies playing at #2 WR and #2 CB... their starting MLB was out for 6 games with a concussion, being replaced by a man who was fighting cancer last season... their punter was kicking field goals for some games...
...that\'s why they started 1-7... and yes you have to credit the coaching for keeping the players focused and making tremendous adjustments to bring them back from the grave,..

...Jimmy Johnson was not as successful in Miami as he was in Dallas because he could not get rid of Dan Marino. Marino was but a shell of his old self when Johnson took over Miami...

..of course there are flash in the pan Holmgrens out there... not because someone reaches the pinnacle once in this place it means they are going to reach it again someplace else... there are too many factors that play a part in success in the NFL, like injuries, free agency, etc... but all things equal, it is the coaches who put the players together; it is the coaches who put the playbook together... to win football games you need good coaching and good players in all 3 aspects of the team. It\'s a team sport...

...yeah Shanahan hasn\'t won any Superbowls without Elway, then again, Elway never won a Superbowl without Shanahan...

Gumbo, I see you just want to antagonize people...

...this time I\'m really following my own advice...

GumboBC · 12-30-2004, 12:37 AM

Tobias-Reiper--

I\'m not trying to antagonize anyone. I just have a belief that some folks put too much stock in coaching. I sure some of you new guys don\'t understand and this is meant moreso for some of the older members here. But, hey, anyone is wecome to join in.

But, let\'s not start accusing folks of trying to start trouble. Is that really necessary?

Sure Parcells is allowed one bad season. We\'ll right that off as a fluke.

But what about Gruden? Shannahan? Holmgren? Billick?

Seems to me that coaching can\'t sustain success once key players are gone. Which is my point.

The coaches who are able to sustain success are usually the ones who are able to bring in more talent to replace the talent they are using.

This coahing stuff is important. Very important. My point is onlyh that talent is more important than coaching.

xan · 12-30-2004, 01:19 AM

Ah, to weigh in on this thread again. Like the lingering aftertaste of phosgene on the breeze of certain death...

There are, at any one time, approximately 200,000 players in various football leagues around the country/globe. Of those players, the very best, approximately 1900 play in the NFL. This 1% are the most talented, and any one team has no more or less of that talent (Salary cap and various contractual issues governing this \"law\".)

Since each team has no more or less athleticism than any other, it simply comes down to coaching/strategy and to some extent, front office culture.

Well coached teams survive injury, personnel turnover and the vagaries of scheduling and weather. Poorly coached teams are VERY consistent. The players perform under their potential and the playcalling doesn\'t optimize the talent on the field.

59 players have to be on the same page, every second of every day, for 8 months to win a Super Bowl.

Who writes that page?

GumboBC · 12-30-2004, 01:31 AM

xan --

Let\'s apply your logic to the Bucs. Is it Grudens fault the Bucs have underachieved the past 2 years? They were super bowl champs too.

Is it Shannahans fault the Broncos haven\'t won a playoff game since Elway played?

Is it Holmgrens fault the Seahawks haven\'t won a playoff game?

Was it Dan Reeves fault the falcons couldn\'t get it done? The man went to 4 super bowls and he got fired.

Look, I could go on and on but going my what you said the talent is the same, so the only conclusion I can make is that you would fire all of the coaches I just mentioned. Along with a bunch more I didn\'t mention.

12-29-2004, 05:35 PM	#1
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Overrated and it's been proven Once upon a time I had folks telling me how coaching and leadership was the "key". Hmmm... Well........ How's ol' Parcells doing? All that great coaching ain't doing a thing is it? Seems ol' Bill might have to go back to the drawing board. And I believe leadership has gotting the Panthers only 7-wins out of 15 games. And how 'bout Gruden? Players turning on the man? What's up with that? From Super Bowl champs to chumps. I said along that players are most responsible for the whole thing. What about Venturi? Is he responsible for the improvement for our defense? According to some, he must be. I think it's some of the new guys on defense. Hey, but maybe you guys are right. Maybe it is Venturi. ;) Remember.. Coaches call plays and the players MAKE the plays. Have some of you guys learned yet? Or do you blame Parcells for the lack of discipline on the Cowboy's team? This should be interesting :P
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

12-29-2004, 06:33 PM	#2
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,097	Overrated and it's been proven gumbo thats an interesting point. im not going to disagree with u. i think it is some our new guys on and maybe they have changed the sytem some. that im not sure of. i think bockwodlt helps and the fact that mckenzie has grasped the system. i also think thomas has been terrible all year and having brown on the other side of mckenzie helps. but i think u have a very goods argument when bringing up bill parcells. but coaching has to play a part some way. because how do u explaine kotite taking over the eagles and making the playoffs his first year then with basically the same guys the 2nd season and seasons afterwards tanking itr. talent can onlpy take you so far. but i still think that your right in your argument to a good extent. and the point is very valid
	Your team stinks

12-29-2004, 06:42 PM	#3
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Overrated and it's been proven spkb25 Sure, coaching plays a part. Just not a bigger part than the players who actually make the plays. To me... coaching is way overrated. Some folks (you know who you are) think coaching is the cure for every thing. I think Favre and Reggie White played more of a role in getting the Pack to the SuperBowl. He sure as heck wasn\'t Holmgren. How\'s Holmgren doing now?> And how\'s Shannahan doing without Elway? How did Jimmy Johnson do in Miami without all his players from Dallas? And Gruden? Hell, even blind man can see it has more to do with the players. It also takes some good coaching. You can\'t have a mooron calling the plays, obviously. PEACE
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

12-29-2004, 11:41 PM	#4
RDOX 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 264	Overrated and it's been proven spkb25 Sure, coaching plays a part. Just not a bigger part than the players who actually make the plays. It also takes some good coaching. You can\'t have a mooron calling the plays, obviously. PEACE I don\'t know about not having a moron calling plays, we have two on the sidelines every Sunday: McCarthy and Venturi. GumboBC, it takes both coaching and playing. The coach needs to be the person in overall control of HOW the game plan will be drawn up and executed. The players need to be in control of the EXECUTION of the game plan, each player with his own speciality. At the professional level a lot less teaching and a lot more motivation and strategy is required than that of a PeeWee coach, obviously. But a coach at any level PeeWee to NFL needs to be able to communicate, motivate, direct, assist, and teach players what they want in order to execute the game plan. This has been my take on the Saints. Hazlett and company may have drawn up a game plan on both offense and defense that is Super Bowl caliber, but the players do not put the plan into execution because they have very little football \"sense,\" and this set of coaches hasn\'t done the things necessary to develop that football \"sense.\" This is my biggest complaint about Brooks. No football \"sense.\" This could go on and on. But the major role of a coach at this level is to plan and ensure that the plan is carried out. That ain\'t happening that I see.
RDOX 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 264

12-30-2004, 12:16 AM	#5
SaintPez Registered Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 82	Overrated and it's been proven It is true. coaching and the players go hand in hand. As a coach, you are supposed to put in a game plan to help you win with the people you have on your team. Look at Billick in Baltimore. He is supposed to be an offensive guru, but with no dynamic players on offense, he won a championship with defense. Look at their defense now since Marvin Lewis left. They still have ray lewis and chris mcallister, but they are not even in the top 5 defenses in the league. The new defensive coach has switched to a 3-4. there you have it. the same dynamic players on defense, with a different coach <who may or may not know what his players do best> and a totally different result. I think it its the right mix of players <making plays> and coaching < guys who put their players in systems or positions to make those plays> Nuff Said.
SaintPez Registered Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 82

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12-30-2004, 12:22 AM	#6
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Overrated and it's been proven It is true. coaching and the players go hand in hand. As a coach, you are supposed to put in a game plan to help you win with the people you have on your team. Look at Billick in Baltimore. He is supposed to be an offensive guru, but with no dynamic players on offense, he won a championship with defense. Look at their defense now since Marvin Lewis left. They still have ray lewis and chris mcallister, but they are not even in the top 5 defenses in the league. The new defensive coach has switched to a 3-4. there you have it. the same dynamic players on defense, with a different coach <who may or may not know what his players do best> and a totally different result. I think it its the right mix of players <making plays> and coaching < guys who put their players in systems or positions to make those plays> Nuff Said. I hate the Nuff Said ending. Well.. It ain\'t enough said for me. Explain to me why the Panthers went from Champs to Chumps? They still have the same coaches? And how bout Parcells. Just talk about those two coaches and don\'t get sidetracked.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

12-30-2004, 12:27 AM	#7
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Overrated and it's been proven ..why am I getting into this one... Bill Parcells is allowed a bad season... one bad season doesn\'t mean the man can\'t coach.. besides, the man is what 60-some years old closer to 70? Maybe he doesn\'t have it in him anymore to go at the same pace he did before, who knows... ..the Panthers have 14 players in IR... lost early in the season were their #1 WR, #1, #2, and #3 RB, their #1 (and arguably the best in the league) DT... their starting RB was the 3rd FB when the season started... only the center is the same player in the o-line... their QB is playing with a fractured thumb in his throwing hand... they have rookies playing at #2 WR and #2 CB... their starting MLB was out for 6 games with a concussion, being replaced by a man who was fighting cancer last season... their punter was kicking field goals for some games... ...that\'s why they started 1-7... and yes you have to credit the coaching for keeping the players focused and making tremendous adjustments to bring them back from the grave,.. ...Jimmy Johnson was not as successful in Miami as he was in Dallas because he could not get rid of Dan Marino. Marino was but a shell of his old self when Johnson took over Miami... ..of course there are flash in the pan Holmgrens out there... not because someone reaches the pinnacle once in this place it means they are going to reach it again someplace else... there are too many factors that play a part in success in the NFL, like injuries, free agency, etc... but all things equal, it is the coaches who put the players together; it is the coaches who put the playbook together... to win football games you need good coaching and good players in all 3 aspects of the team. It\'s a team sport... ...yeah Shanahan hasn\'t won any Superbowls without Elway, then again, Elway never won a Superbowl without Shanahan... Gumbo, I see you just want to antagonize people... ...this time I\'m really following my own advice...
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

12-30-2004, 12:37 AM	#8
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Overrated and it's been proven Tobias-Reiper-- I\'m not trying to antagonize anyone. I just have a belief that some folks put too much stock in coaching. I sure some of you new guys don\'t understand and this is meant moreso for some of the older members here. But, hey, anyone is wecome to join in. But, let\'s not start accusing folks of trying to start trouble. Is that really necessary? Sure Parcells is allowed one bad season. We\'ll right that off as a fluke. But what about Gruden? Shannahan? Holmgren? Billick? Seems to me that coaching can\'t sustain success once key players are gone. Which is my point. The coaches who are able to sustain success are usually the ones who are able to bring in more talent to replace the talent they are using. This coahing stuff is important. Very important. My point is onlyh that talent is more important than coaching.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

12-30-2004, 01:19 AM	#9
xan Professor Crab and Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Princeton Posts: 3,369 Blog Entries: 34	Overrated and it's been proven Ah, to weigh in on this thread again. Like the lingering aftertaste of phosgene on the breeze of certain death... There are, at any one time, approximately 200,000 players in various football leagues around the country/globe. Of those players, the very best, approximately 1900 play in the NFL. This 1% are the most talented, and any one team has no more or less of that talent (Salary cap and various contractual issues governing this \"law\".) Since each team has no more or less athleticism than any other, it simply comes down to coaching/strategy and to some extent, front office culture. Well coached teams survive injury, personnel turnover and the vagaries of scheduling and weather. Poorly coached teams are VERY consistent. The players perform under their potential and the playcalling doesn\'t optimize the talent on the field. 59 players have to be on the same page, every second of every day, for 8 months to win a Super Bowl. Who writes that page?
	Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger." Hobbes: "Common lament."

12-30-2004, 01:31 AM	#10
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Overrated and it's been proven xan -- Let\'s apply your logic to the Bucs. Is it Grudens fault the Bucs have underachieved the past 2 years? They were super bowl champs too. Is it Shannahans fault the Broncos haven\'t won a playoff game since Elway played? Is it Holmgrens fault the Seahawks haven\'t won a playoff game? Was it Dan Reeves fault the falcons couldn\'t get it done? The man went to 4 super bowls and he got fired. Look, I could go on and on but going my what you said the talent is the same, so the only conclusion I can make is that you would fire all of the coaches I just mentioned. Along with a bunch more I didn\'t mention.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616