I wanted Haslett gone. But...

saintswhodi · 01-06-2005, 02:45 PM

I agree WhoDat. Haslett has not earned the free pass that the other two coaches mentioned are getting. He has had his chance repeatedly to get it right, and he hasn\'t. It\'s just time for a new identity.

stockman311 · 01-06-2005, 05:41 PM

Haslett is not the problem nor are any of the coaches.
Not one person has put the blame on the players.
Yes the players are athletically gifted. Tebucky Jones is a prime example of this.
Guess what? Athletes don\'t win football games. If they did then we would have a bunch of track and field stars out there playing.
Football players win football games. In particular smart football players. And to be even more specific unselfish, smart football players win Championships.
Look at the Patriots. They don\'t win because Belicheck is such a great coach. They win because he is a great talent evaluator and he dumps players that start in with that me first menatilty. Look at Lawyer Milloy last year. Everyone was screaming for them for releasing him. Has anyone seen him since? Did the Patriots miss a beat? Did anyone see how fast Ty Law changed his selfish tune this summer when Belichick put him in his place. He was calling his coach a liar for God sake and said he would never play in a Patriot uniform again. Funny, on Week 1 he was practically singing the Patriot fight song.
I feel the Saints main and only problem is that they scout too much by the numbers. They draft very poorly (Stinchcomb I\'m talking about you) and they put up with too much crap from their star players (Victor Riley I\'m talking about you). i.e. no reprocussions for poor play.
Just look at the string of rif raf that has come and go the past 5 years here:

Ricky \"Pot Head\" Williams
Kyle \"Crazy Helmet Tosser\" Turley
Willie \"Joe Horn slept with my wife\" Roaf
Albert \"Sticky Fingers\" Connell
Norman \"Needs a hamburger\" Hand
Grady \"Needs two hamburgers\" Jackson
Dale \"Needs some crack\" Carter
and my favorite
Jonathan \"Needs three hamburgers\" Sullivan

Do I need to go on? Someone brought these players in and they have corrupted our team for the past 5 years. People are amazed we haven\'t made the playoffs since 2000. I\'m amazed we haven\'t been picking first every year.
If it wasn\'t for the strenght of Haslett\'s personality (he looks like he\'s aged 20 years by the way) we probably would have.
The blame for 4 years of futility falls on the scouts for the team, the G.M. picking the players, and the players lack of character and discipline. If Haslett helps to pick the players then he is not blameless, but I have a feeling he has less control than most coaches over who walks in and out of the lockerroom.

[Edited on 6/1/2005 by stockman311]

saintswhodi · 01-06-2005, 05:52 PM

Wow so, a coach who has had the consensus most talent in at least the NFC South (voted on by media and other NFC South coaches) if not the NFC yet can\'t make the playoffs is not responsible? Well, maybe a coach who kept a d-coordinator who everyone who is a fan of the team knows is no better than a position coach and who has steadily worsened the d each year is to blame? No? Okay, maybe a coach who repeatedly says after losses \"I have no idea how to fix what the problem is.\" No? Okay, maybe a coach who decides they needed to get fat up front, so gets rid of La\'Roi glover, then subsequently fat was too fat and they get rid of Grady Jackson and so conditioning won\'t be a problem, drafts fat Jonathon Sullivan? No? Or a coach who decides they need to get faster on D so jettisons Sammy Knight(who now has the most INTS by a safety the past 4 years in the NFL) for Tebucky Jones? No? Or a coach who changes the formula for winning EVERY offseason? No?

They don\'t win because Belicheck is such a great coach.

Actually, they do. And it is recognized league wide.

Someone brought these players in and they have corrupted our team for the past 5 years

One guess who that someone is, the same someone who changes philosophies more than his underwear.

If Haslett helps to pick the players then he is not blameless, but I have a feeling he has less control than most coaches over who walks in and out of the lockerroom

The first part is right, the second I feel is wrong.

stockman311 · 01-06-2005, 06:03 PM

Give me a break. If you feel Haslett brought all these players in then you have lost it. Mueller/Loomis. Enough said. One is gone. One should be gone.
Haslett is a good coach with a very bad personel department.

Funny Bill Parcells was considered the best coach in the league for a good long time. A few crazy non character players later and he looks pretty bad this year.
Coaching is about putting a game plan together that takes advantage of the other teams weaknesses and has the ability to be flexible when unexpected things happen during the course of the game. The main problem that I have with Haslett is that he didn\'t bench starters for making bonehead penalties that just killed us early in the year. Would you rather have a guy like Mike Martz?

saintswhodi · 01-06-2005, 06:29 PM

Well, Mike Martz has been to a Superbowl in the last 4 years, so.......

Here\'s a nice article for you from 2002 after the Mueller firing:

Haslett has insisted upon control of the personnel decisions for obvious reasons. Since the shock of the firing of his friend and confidant Mueller, Haslett can envision a Benson hire down the road that would be an anchor unless he (Haslett) was in control of his own destiny ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â€Âœ the final say in personnel decisions.

http://clarionherald.org/20020731/buddyd.htm

And he wants more control over personnel.

Tobias-Reiper · 01-06-2005, 07:04 PM

Give me a break. If you feel Haslett brought all these players in then you have lost it. Mueller/Loomis. Enough said. One is gone. One should be gone.
Haslett is a good coach with a very bad personel department.

Funny Bill Parcells was considered the best coach in the league for a good long time. A few crazy non character players later and he looks pretty bad this year.
Coaching is about putting a game plan together that takes advantage of the other teams weaknesses and has the ability to be flexible when unexpected things happen during the course of the game. The main problem that I have with Haslett is that he didn\'t bench starters for making bonehead penalties that just killed us early in the year. Would you rather have a guy like Mike Martz?

..you just killed your own argument, like... really dead...
Parcells is still considered one of the great coaches of all time.. one bad season is not going to tarnish his achievements in the NFL.. he\'s also almost 70 years old...

...Mike Martz, while being an egotistical loony job, was the OC of the 1999 Rams, and since he took the HC position:
2000- 10-6 - reached playoffs
2001 - 12-4 - won division - reached SB
2002 - 7-9 - went through QB controversy
2003 - 12-4 - won division - went to playoffs
2004 8-8 - won division - going to playoffs

I don\'t know.. you tell me which results you would\'ve preferred the past 5 years...

WhoDat · 01-06-2005, 11:13 PM

Give me a break. If you feel Haslett brought all these players in then you have lost it. Mueller/Loomis. Enough said. One is gone. One should be gone.
Haslett is a good coach with a very bad personel department.

While I won\'t argue that Loomis is not a good football GM and the younger Mueller needs to be put on the first train outta here, to suggest that Haslett and especially Venturi are free of blame is ridiculous.

This is the players\' fault? Name one team other than the 1991 Saints with more talent in the history of the franchise. One.

You think Loomis is calling the shots on player personnel? Who wanted Tebucky Jones? Haslett. Who bragged about his big coup to move up and draft Sullivan b/c that\'s the player they really wanted all along? Haslett. Who couldn\'t stop talking about Mel Mitchell? Haslett!! This isn\'t Loomis\' team. You don\'t hear Loomis saying, \"now we\'ve got the players I think we need to be successful.\" Haslett said before the 2003 season that he finally had HIS team. If the players such then either he\'s not coaching \'em or he picked the wrong guys.

In the real world, when a company underperforms, the CEO gets canned. He can\'t point at his middle managers and say, \"well those guys aren\'t performing.\" It\'s his job to MAKE them, and Haslett hasn\'t excelled at doing much of anything except fattening up Defensive Tackles and ensuring the people of New Orleans get ANOTHER average season.

01-06-2005, 02:45 PM	#11
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	I wanted Haslett gone. But... I agree WhoDat. Haslett has not earned the free pass that the other two coaches mentioned are getting. He has had his chance repeatedly to get it right, and he hasn\'t. It\'s just time for a new identity.

01-06-2005, 05:41 PM	#12
stockman311 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,137	I wanted Haslett gone. But... Haslett is not the problem nor are any of the coaches. Not one person has put the blame on the players. Yes the players are athletically gifted. Tebucky Jones is a prime example of this. Guess what? Athletes don\'t win football games. If they did then we would have a bunch of track and field stars out there playing. Football players win football games. In particular smart football players. And to be even more specific unselfish, smart football players win Championships. Look at the Patriots. They don\'t win because Belicheck is such a great coach. They win because he is a great talent evaluator and he dumps players that start in with that me first menatilty. Look at Lawyer Milloy last year. Everyone was screaming for them for releasing him. Has anyone seen him since? Did the Patriots miss a beat? Did anyone see how fast Ty Law changed his selfish tune this summer when Belichick put him in his place. He was calling his coach a liar for God sake and said he would never play in a Patriot uniform again. Funny, on Week 1 he was practically singing the Patriot fight song. I feel the Saints main and only problem is that they scout too much by the numbers. They draft very poorly (Stinchcomb I\'m talking about you) and they put up with too much crap from their star players (Victor Riley I\'m talking about you). i.e. no reprocussions for poor play. Just look at the string of rif raf that has come and go the past 5 years here: Ricky \"Pot Head\" Williams Kyle \"Crazy Helmet Tosser\" Turley Willie \"Joe Horn slept with my wife\" Roaf Albert \"Sticky Fingers\" Connell Norman \"Needs a hamburger\" Hand Grady \"Needs two hamburgers\" Jackson Dale \"Needs some crack\" Carter and my favorite Jonathan \"Needs three hamburgers\" Sullivan Do I need to go on? Someone brought these players in and they have corrupted our team for the past 5 years. People are amazed we haven\'t made the playoffs since 2000. I\'m amazed we haven\'t been picking first every year. If it wasn\'t for the strenght of Haslett\'s personality (he looks like he\'s aged 20 years by the way) we probably would have. The blame for 4 years of futility falls on the scouts for the team, the G.M. picking the players, and the players lack of character and discipline. If Haslett helps to pick the players then he is not blameless, but I have a feeling he has less control than most coaches over who walks in and out of the lockerroom. [Edited on 6/1/2005 by stockman311]

01-06-2005, 05:52 PM	#13
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	I wanted Haslett gone. But... Wow so, a coach who has had the consensus most talent in at least the NFC South (voted on by media and other NFC South coaches) if not the NFC yet can\'t make the playoffs is not responsible? Well, maybe a coach who kept a d-coordinator who everyone who is a fan of the team knows is no better than a position coach and who has steadily worsened the d each year is to blame? No? Okay, maybe a coach who repeatedly says after losses \"I have no idea how to fix what the problem is.\" No? Okay, maybe a coach who decides they needed to get fat up front, so gets rid of La\'Roi glover, then subsequently fat was too fat and they get rid of Grady Jackson and so conditioning won\'t be a problem, drafts fat Jonathon Sullivan? No? Or a coach who decides they need to get faster on D so jettisons Sammy Knight(who now has the most INTS by a safety the past 4 years in the NFL) for Tebucky Jones? No? Or a coach who changes the formula for winning EVERY offseason? No? They don\'t win because Belicheck is such a great coach. Actually, they do. And it is recognized league wide. Someone brought these players in and they have corrupted our team for the past 5 years One guess who that someone is, the same someone who changes philosophies more than his underwear. If Haslett helps to pick the players then he is not blameless, but I have a feeling he has less control than most coaches over who walks in and out of the lockerroom The first part is right, the second I feel is wrong.

01-06-2005, 06:03 PM	#14
stockman311 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,137	I wanted Haslett gone. But... Give me a break. If you feel Haslett brought all these players in then you have lost it. Mueller/Loomis. Enough said. One is gone. One should be gone. Haslett is a good coach with a very bad personel department. Funny Bill Parcells was considered the best coach in the league for a good long time. A few crazy non character players later and he looks pretty bad this year. Coaching is about putting a game plan together that takes advantage of the other teams weaknesses and has the ability to be flexible when unexpected things happen during the course of the game. The main problem that I have with Haslett is that he didn\'t bench starters for making bonehead penalties that just killed us early in the year. Would you rather have a guy like Mike Martz?

01-06-2005, 06:29 PM	#15
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	I wanted Haslett gone. But... Well, Mike Martz has been to a Superbowl in the last 4 years, so....... Here\'s a nice article for you from 2002 after the Mueller firing: Haslett has insisted upon control of the personnel decisions for obvious reasons. Since the shock of the firing of his friend and confidant Mueller, Haslett can envision a Benson hire down the road that would be an anchor unless he (Haslett) was in control of his own destiny ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Â‚Â¬Ã¢Â€Âœ the final say in personnel decisions. http://clarionherald.org/20020731/buddyd.htm And he wants more control over personnel.

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01-06-2005, 07:04 PM	#16
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	I wanted Haslett gone. But... Give me a break. If you feel Haslett brought all these players in then you have lost it. Mueller/Loomis. Enough said. One is gone. One should be gone. Haslett is a good coach with a very bad personel department. Funny Bill Parcells was considered the best coach in the league for a good long time. A few crazy non character players later and he looks pretty bad this year. Coaching is about putting a game plan together that takes advantage of the other teams weaknesses and has the ability to be flexible when unexpected things happen during the course of the game. The main problem that I have with Haslett is that he didn\'t bench starters for making bonehead penalties that just killed us early in the year. Would you rather have a guy like Mike Martz? ..you just killed your own argument, like... really dead... Parcells is still considered one of the great coaches of all time.. one bad season is not going to tarnish his achievements in the NFL.. he\'s also almost 70 years old... ...Mike Martz, while being an egotistical loony job, was the OC of the 1999 Rams, and since he took the HC position: 2000- 10-6 - reached playoffs 2001 - 12-4 - won division - reached SB 2002 - 7-9 - went through QB controversy 2003 - 12-4 - won division - went to playoffs 2004 8-8 - won division - going to playoffs I don\'t know.. you tell me which results you would\'ve preferred the past 5 years...
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

01-06-2005, 11:13 PM	#17
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	I wanted Haslett gone. But... Give me a break. If you feel Haslett brought all these players in then you have lost it. Mueller/Loomis. Enough said. One is gone. One should be gone. Haslett is a good coach with a very bad personel department. While I won\'t argue that Loomis is not a good football GM and the younger Mueller needs to be put on the first train outta here, to suggest that Haslett and especially Venturi are free of blame is ridiculous. This is the players\' fault? Name one team other than the 1991 Saints with more talent in the history of the franchise. One. You think Loomis is calling the shots on player personnel? Who wanted Tebucky Jones? Haslett. Who bragged about his big coup to move up and draft Sullivan b/c that\'s the player they really wanted all along? Haslett. Who couldn\'t stop talking about Mel Mitchell? Haslett!! This isn\'t Loomis\' team. You don\'t hear Loomis saying, \"now we\'ve got the players I think we need to be successful.\" Haslett said before the 2003 season that he finally had HIS team. If the players such then either he\'s not coaching \'em or he picked the wrong guys. In the real world, when a company underperforms, the CEO gets canned. He can\'t point at his middle managers and say, \"well those guys aren\'t performing.\" It\'s his job to MAKE them, and Haslett hasn\'t excelled at doing much of anything except fattening up Defensive Tackles and ensuring the people of New Orleans get ANOTHER average season.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"