Blanco's offer....

FireVenturi · 01-11-2005, 03:07 PM

LOL... Mark my words Saints aren\'t going anywheres!

I tend to agree with that

xan · 01-11-2005, 03:27 PM

Euphoria - have you ever negotiated with a government agency? That\'s not how it works, and proceedurally, by the time the entity has gained the exact specific knowledge of the exact documents involved plus their exact whereabouts, plus demonstrated to the courts (expect a state challenge) the public interest rights to have the information disclosed, the deal will probably be long closed/terminated.

Take a look at our President\'s military record under FOIA - lots of black lines....

And lastly, anyone who knows anything about negotiating sensitive deals knows that the guy with the final say stays far in the background until the last possible moment. That\'s because there\'s no more room to maneuver and all interested parties have to know. This is why it disturbs me that Ms. Blanco chose to lead this charge. This is a classic \"paint yourself into a corner\" strategy. She can\'t do what car salesmen do and \"Go Ask the Manager.\"

I\'m in the camp that this ignorant bush league ploy by Bianco is going to backfire and Benson will boogie in SoCal.

WhoDat · 01-11-2005, 07:40 PM

I think that we\'re getting off of the point here. The Saints DO generate tax revenue for the state. The players and staff all have to pay state taxes, and when you consider what the cost of that roster is, that\'s alot of tax dollars. Also, when you consider the taxes that are associated with 8 home games a year, and 60-some thousand people attending the game and they are buying from vendors, apparrel, so on and so forth.

Yes, the Saints DO generate SOME tax revenue, but not nearly as much as you or Tom Benson insinuate. I did this in another thread, I\'ll do it again here. Basic Math:

The largest payroll for the Saints is the players - roughly $80 million a year (that\'s the cap right?). Even at the 39.6% tax bracket, which I\'m not sure even still exists after all the Bush cuts, that\'s $32 million in tax. With good accountants, it\'s probably more like $20 million. That\'s about it for the Saints in terms of direct contributions.

The Saints claimed Operating Profits of only $8 million last year. With corporate tax rates and incentives they already have - that may generate another million or two in taxes.

The State DOES NOT LEVY TAX ON TICKET SALES. Nor do you pay taxes on concession in the Dome, last I checked. The profits from concessions in the Dome go to Tom Benson. The State pays for the concessions, concession stand workers, and everyone that makes the Dome run - via the Super Dome Commision. The State also paid for the practice facility in Metairie.

As for apparel and all the other \"fringe\" revenue - it\'s hard to give the Saints credit for that. Sure, they sell merchandise, but so does the Gap. You ready to give the Gap a few million dollars a year b/c they pay taxes to the State on their sales at Lakeside Mall? That\'s discretionary income (AKA disposable) that would otherwise go into the economy anyway - unless you\'re of the belief that fans would otherwise squirrel away the $20 it costs to buy a T-shirt and retire to Florida and never pay LA a cent. Oh - and those 5,000 traveling fans 8 weeks a year - that\'s a drop in the bucket in terms of tourism in that City. That\'s one AMA meeting or other convention.

The point of all of this is to show that the State already spends millions of dollars to support the team even before the cash payments. It\'s hard to show that the Saints generate any real revenue for the State.

The league issued 15 year stadium loans to Denver, Philly and New England which would max out at 150 million dollars (roughly half the cost of the stadium) to be paid back by ticket sales revenue that would have ordinarily gone to the visiting team.

Now this I agree with. If Benson wants a new $350 million dollar stadium, and the State has pledged $168 for Dome renovations, and the league could potentially be squeezed for $150 - why the hell aren\'t we squeezing? That\'s $318 right there. If Benson can\'t come up with the other 10% then to hell with him... but my question is, where is the league in all this?

Euphoria · 01-11-2005, 07:57 PM

Xan,
I am the government. I am in DC work for and in the government. FOIA doesn\'t take long at all. Media does it all the time and 24 hours you\'ll have the papers/documents you were after, now that isn\'t saying you are going to find what you are looking for but there is a time limit the government has to respond to a request and its immediate not a year or 10 years... its 24-48 hours. Its also why the largest public affairs/media relations department in the world is... Navy Public Affairs (CHINFO) thats who handles the requests... have to be large to handle the amout of FOIA requests they get on a daily basis.
Also keep in mind why the Govenor and Tom Benson do make it public... are you ready for this? Because each side wants the public to know what is going on so that \'we\' can take a side and help sway one of them to side with said proposal. Because of this do you think the govenerors office is getting e-mails, letters, phone calls over this stuff... YOU BETCHA.
Oh and \"black lines\"... you have to take into consideration things coveren in the \'Privacy Act\' If lets say Benson\'s Social Security number is on the proposal that would be -lined out for as per Privacy Act.

[Edited on 12/1/2005 by Euphoria]

shadowdrinker · 01-12-2005, 12:23 AM

[quote:20c4a48c9b]Xan,
I am the government.

hahahahahahahahahaha..get real...you just totally blew away any hope you possibly had of ever making a point..

do you think people are \'\'I am the Government\'\'..hahaha...what a joke...

I came real close to deleting this whole thing. It\'s unnecessary, you knew what he meant.

[Edited on 12/1/2005 by JOESAM2002]

xan · 01-12-2005, 01:08 AM

Gee, I almost felt something there...must be the breeze of my point rocketing over someone\'s head. Thank god/allah/buddah/yaweh/supreme being/eternal nothingness that it doesn\'t happen often.

As a private company, Benson is under no obligation to disclose anything to the State other than tax returns which the State already has. It is not in his organization\'s interest to do so specifically because of FOIA. Now, if you\'re on the Saints\' side, you simply put generic parameters around your negotiating position and let the Government turn Japanese trying to figure something out, hoping that they\'ll self destruct both strategically and politically. Fairly simple - keep the business or lose the business.

All real decisions are made in sidebars, away from the idiots who knee jerk. None of this makes it onto paper until real positions are hammered out. Even in heavily regulated government industries like Pharma and Nukes.

Rules #1, 2, 3 and 4 of negotiating - He/she who puts a number on paper first, loses. Bianco lost.

shadowdrinker · 01-12-2005, 01:31 AM

Also keep in mind why the Govenor and Tom Benson do make it public... are you ready for this? Because each side wants the public to know what is going on so that \'we\' can take a side and help sway one of them to side with said proposal. Because of this do you think the govenerors office is getting e-mails, letters, phone calls over this stuff... YOU BETCHA.

Do what?...let\'s get real..it isn\'t like you can have an agreement of this size and interest to taxpayers, and keep ot under wraps...it wasn\'t some carefully schemed project to leak out information on it...it\'s all over the papers..espn..and sports talk radio..it wasn\'t a public relations scheme..get real...

Furthermore..It doesn\'t matter now what the \'\' people \'\' think..they have no say in the negotiations...the elected officials..that the \'\'people\'\' have voted in that will decide . that\'s about all the democracy you will see involved in this deal...I mean..how many of you have had any say whatsoever in the deal process at all?..none..and you won\'t...noone but the elected officials voices matter now..so..to say it is a scheme to sway people is a bit far fetched for me

[Edited on 12/1/2005 by shadowdrinker]

Danno · 01-12-2005, 07:52 AM

Whats really sad is you know who Tagliabue is rooting for.
Probably most of the nation would want us to move to LA.

WhoDat · 01-12-2005, 09:45 AM

Hey Xan,

I worked for the government for a while to in the Homeland Security arena, so I know exactly what you\'re talking about.

I think what gets to me the most is that I want to know why this team needs the money so badly. Here\'s an excerpt from a similar discussion we had a while back... I\'m quoting myself.

Anybody think that the Saints are using \"creative accounting\" to make the team look poorer than it actually is? Consider - in 2002 the Saints were 8th best in the league in operating income (which minus taxes basically translates to profit). They had been that way for a while - traditionally less than average in franchise total value, but earning top 10 profits. Even then they were crying poor, as Benson has done since about the moment he bought the team.

Flash forward to 2004 and Forbes lists the Saints as 5th WORST in the league in operating profits. So in 2 years the Saints went from 8th to 27th in income? All while setting season ticket and attendance records throughout 2002 and 2003? How is that possible? Now the franchise is asking for a leap of faith from the fans and state about its profit margin? WHAT?!? Something ain\'t right here. Either Benson has gotten away with being a more savvy businessman than the State officials for years and he\'s simply trying to bamboozle his way into more money again, OR he simply wants out and is making it nearly impossible for the State to reach his demands so he can either leave or gets everything he wants and then some. Fishy fishy. Benson\'s starting to sound like a used car salesman... funny, he is.

http://www.blackandgold.net/site/mod...=7175#pid38085

Now, on the field, what I see is mismanagement. A few years back when the Saints were crying about money (about the time Foster gave them this deal), Tagliapoo visited NO and said that the Saints problems were fixable on their own. He said the team was one of the worst marketers in the league, and that their woes were mostly their own. The Commissioner of the NFL said that. Two years later with a hefty new State subsidy they were top ten in the league in Net Operating Income. Now, two more years later and they\'re so poor again? It just doesn\'t work that way. The books are being cooked - if not, Benson would have nothing to hide. He\'d gladly show the State the books to demonstrate how well run the org. is, how they\'re cutting costs and stretching every buck.... I mean, wouldn\'t you?

4saintspirit · 01-12-2005, 10:17 AM

One thing we all have to realize is the real worth of the franchise. If Benson just broke even yearly his investment in the Saints would have paid off by millions. I mean what he paid for it versus what he could get for it. My guess is that he would not move the Saints to LA -- he would sell them the team to LA investors. I know it still means the Saint move but it is a little different. Wonder if group in New Orleans could afford to buy them

01-11-2005, 03:07 PM	#31
FireVenturi Cold as Ice! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Da Big Easy Posts: 2,978	Blanco's offer.... LOL... Mark my words Saints aren\'t going anywheres! I tend to agree with that

01-11-2005, 03:27 PM	#32
xan Professor Crab and Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Princeton Posts: 3,371 Blog Entries: 34	Blanco's offer.... Euphoria - have you ever negotiated with a government agency? That\'s not how it works, and proceedurally, by the time the entity has gained the exact specific knowledge of the exact documents involved plus their exact whereabouts, plus demonstrated to the courts (expect a state challenge) the public interest rights to have the information disclosed, the deal will probably be long closed/terminated. Take a look at our President\'s military record under FOIA - lots of black lines.... And lastly, anyone who knows anything about negotiating sensitive deals knows that the guy with the final say stays far in the background until the last possible moment. That\'s because there\'s no more room to maneuver and all interested parties have to know. This is why it disturbs me that Ms. Blanco chose to lead this charge. This is a classic \"paint yourself into a corner\" strategy. She can\'t do what car salesmen do and \"Go Ask the Manager.\" I\'m in the camp that this ignorant bush league ploy by Bianco is going to backfire and Benson will boogie in SoCal.
	Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger." Hobbes: "Common lament."

01-11-2005, 07:40 PM	#33
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Blanco's offer.... I think that we\'re getting off of the point here. The Saints DO generate tax revenue for the state. The players and staff all have to pay state taxes, and when you consider what the cost of that roster is, that\'s alot of tax dollars. Also, when you consider the taxes that are associated with 8 home games a year, and 60-some thousand people attending the game and they are buying from vendors, apparrel, so on and so forth. Yes, the Saints DO generate SOME tax revenue, but not nearly as much as you or Tom Benson insinuate. I did this in another thread, I\'ll do it again here. Basic Math: The largest payroll for the Saints is the players - roughly $80 million a year (that\'s the cap right?). Even at the 39.6% tax bracket, which I\'m not sure even still exists after all the Bush cuts, that\'s $32 million in tax. With good accountants, it\'s probably more like $20 million. That\'s about it for the Saints in terms of direct contributions. The Saints claimed Operating Profits of only $8 million last year. With corporate tax rates and incentives they already have - that may generate another million or two in taxes. The State DOES NOT LEVY TAX ON TICKET SALES. Nor do you pay taxes on concession in the Dome, last I checked. The profits from concessions in the Dome go to Tom Benson. The State pays for the concessions, concession stand workers, and everyone that makes the Dome run - via the Super Dome Commision. The State also paid for the practice facility in Metairie. As for apparel and all the other \"fringe\" revenue - it\'s hard to give the Saints credit for that. Sure, they sell merchandise, but so does the Gap. You ready to give the Gap a few million dollars a year b/c they pay taxes to the State on their sales at Lakeside Mall? That\'s discretionary income (AKA disposable) that would otherwise go into the economy anyway - unless you\'re of the belief that fans would otherwise squirrel away the $20 it costs to buy a T-shirt and retire to Florida and never pay LA a cent. Oh - and those 5,000 traveling fans 8 weeks a year - that\'s a drop in the bucket in terms of tourism in that City. That\'s one AMA meeting or other convention. The point of all of this is to show that the State already spends millions of dollars to support the team even before the cash payments. It\'s hard to show that the Saints generate any real revenue for the State. The league issued 15 year stadium loans to Denver, Philly and New England which would max out at 150 million dollars (roughly half the cost of the stadium) to be paid back by ticket sales revenue that would have ordinarily gone to the visiting team. Now this I agree with. If Benson wants a new $350 million dollar stadium, and the State has pledged $168 for Dome renovations, and the league could potentially be squeezed for $150 - why the hell aren\'t we squeezing? That\'s $318 right there. If Benson can\'t come up with the other 10% then to hell with him... but my question is, where is the league in all this?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

01-11-2005, 07:57 PM	#34
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Blanco's offer.... Xan, I am the government. I am in DC work for and in the government. FOIA doesn\'t take long at all. Media does it all the time and 24 hours you\'ll have the papers/documents you were after, now that isn\'t saying you are going to find what you are looking for but there is a time limit the government has to respond to a request and its immediate not a year or 10 years... its 24-48 hours. Its also why the largest public affairs/media relations department in the world is... Navy Public Affairs (CHINFO) thats who handles the requests... have to be large to handle the amout of FOIA requests they get on a daily basis. Also keep in mind why the Govenor and Tom Benson do make it public... are you ready for this? Because each side wants the public to know what is going on so that \'we\' can take a side and help sway one of them to side with said proposal. Because of this do you think the govenerors office is getting e-mails, letters, phone calls over this stuff... YOU BETCHA. Oh and \"black lines\"... you have to take into consideration things coveren in the \'Privacy Act\' If lets say Benson\'s Social Security number is on the proposal that would be -lined out for as per Privacy Act. [Edited on 12/1/2005 by Euphoria]
	E U P H O R I A

01-12-2005, 12:23 AM	#35
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Blanco's offer.... [quote:20c4a48c9b]Xan, I am the government. hahahahahahahahahaha..get real...you just totally blew away any hope you possibly had of ever making a point.. do you think people are \'\'I am the Government\'\'..hahaha...what a joke... I came real close to deleting this whole thing. It\'s unnecessary, you knew what he meant. [Edited on 12/1/2005 by JOESAM2002]
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

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01-12-2005, 01:08 AM	#36
xan Professor Crab and Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Princeton Posts: 3,371 Blog Entries: 34	Blanco's offer.... Gee, I almost felt something there...must be the breeze of my point rocketing over someone\'s head. Thank god/allah/buddah/yaweh/supreme being/eternal nothingness that it doesn\'t happen often. As a private company, Benson is under no obligation to disclose anything to the State other than tax returns which the State already has. It is not in his organization\'s interest to do so specifically because of FOIA. Now, if you\'re on the Saints\' side, you simply put generic parameters around your negotiating position and let the Government turn Japanese trying to figure something out, hoping that they\'ll self destruct both strategically and politically. Fairly simple - keep the business or lose the business. All real decisions are made in sidebars, away from the idiots who knee jerk. None of this makes it onto paper until real positions are hammered out. Even in heavily regulated government industries like Pharma and Nukes. Rules #1, 2, 3 and 4 of negotiating - He/she who puts a number on paper first, loses. Bianco lost.
	Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger." Hobbes: "Common lament."

01-12-2005, 01:31 AM	#37
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Blanco's offer.... Also keep in mind why the Govenor and Tom Benson do make it public... are you ready for this? Because each side wants the public to know what is going on so that \'we\' can take a side and help sway one of them to side with said proposal. Because of this do you think the govenerors office is getting e-mails, letters, phone calls over this stuff... YOU BETCHA. Do what?...let\'s get real..it isn\'t like you can have an agreement of this size and interest to taxpayers, and keep ot under wraps...it wasn\'t some carefully schemed project to leak out information on it...it\'s all over the papers..espn..and sports talk radio..it wasn\'t a public relations scheme..get real... Furthermore..It doesn\'t matter now what the \'\' people \'\' think..they have no say in the negotiations...the elected officials..that the \'\'people\'\' have voted in that will decide . that\'s about all the democracy you will see involved in this deal...I mean..how many of you have had any say whatsoever in the deal process at all?..none..and you won\'t...noone but the elected officials voices matter now..so..to say it is a scheme to sway people is a bit far fetched for me [Edited on 12/1/2005 by shadowdrinker]
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

01-12-2005, 07:52 AM	#38
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,725	Blanco's offer.... Whats really sad is you know who Tagliabue is rooting for. Probably most of the nation would want us to move to LA.

01-12-2005, 09:45 AM	#39
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Blanco's offer.... Hey Xan, I worked for the government for a while to in the Homeland Security arena, so I know exactly what you\'re talking about. I think what gets to me the most is that I want to know why this team needs the money so badly. Here\'s an excerpt from a similar discussion we had a while back... I\'m quoting myself. Anybody think that the Saints are using \"creative accounting\" to make the team look poorer than it actually is? Consider - in 2002 the Saints were 8th best in the league in operating income (which minus taxes basically translates to profit). They had been that way for a while - traditionally less than average in franchise total value, but earning top 10 profits. Even then they were crying poor, as Benson has done since about the moment he bought the team. Flash forward to 2004 and Forbes lists the Saints as 5th WORST in the league in operating profits. So in 2 years the Saints went from 8th to 27th in income? All while setting season ticket and attendance records throughout 2002 and 2003? How is that possible? Now the franchise is asking for a leap of faith from the fans and state about its profit margin? WHAT?!? Something ain\'t right here. Either Benson has gotten away with being a more savvy businessman than the State officials for years and he\'s simply trying to bamboozle his way into more money again, OR he simply wants out and is making it nearly impossible for the State to reach his demands so he can either leave or gets everything he wants and then some. Fishy fishy. Benson\'s starting to sound like a used car salesman... funny, he is. http://www.blackandgold.net/site/mod...=7175#pid38085 Now, on the field, what I see is mismanagement. A few years back when the Saints were crying about money (about the time Foster gave them this deal), Tagliapoo visited NO and said that the Saints problems were fixable on their own. He said the team was one of the worst marketers in the league, and that their woes were mostly their own. The Commissioner of the NFL said that. Two years later with a hefty new State subsidy they were top ten in the league in Net Operating Income. Now, two more years later and they\'re so poor again? It just doesn\'t work that way. The books are being cooked - if not, Benson would have nothing to hide. He\'d gladly show the State the books to demonstrate how well run the org. is, how they\'re cutting costs and stretching every buck.... I mean, wouldn\'t you?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

01-12-2005, 10:17 AM	#40
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	Blanco's offer.... One thing we all have to realize is the real worth of the franchise. If Benson just broke even yearly his investment in the Saints would have paid off by millions. I mean what he paid for it versus what he could get for it. My guess is that he would not move the Saints to LA -- he would sell them the team to LA investors. I know it still means the Saint move but it is a little different. Wonder if group in New Orleans could afford to buy them
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690