How long does it take to build a champion?
 

This is a key question to me. Many people say, we need to look at this position and this position and this one before we look at qb. My question is, how long does that process take? What we are talking about doing is getting a frugal free agency team to spend money on key positions AND to draft well when they have not shown the acumen to do so. SO let's say all goes as planned. We get Edge Hartwell, we get a decent LT, we draft a safety and away we go. These players are ALL learning a new system. If our coach doesn't get an extension, they may be learning another new one in a year depending on team success. The qb we have may be learning a new system. Meanwhile Joe Horn is getting older, Charles Grant needs a new contract, Stallworth needs a new contract, LeCharles needs a new contract, players that we did draft and who have performed will need to be extended. But we don't yet have a champion. So Joe Horn, who is right now the life of our offense retires. Because we are so keen on going after D, we have not addressed this need so it becomes a need in another season. McKenzie needs a new contract, but he is 30. Mitchell may or may not be the answer at safety so we may need to address that. So basically, we are talking about several seasons of fixing a D while offensive players retire or become cap casualties or get traded or whatever. SO then we have our D, maybe, but no O. And I would HATE to imagine Brooks without Joe. HATE IT. So we are looking at the minimum two seasons before we are fielding a respectable D as it appears Venturi may be hanging around for at least one more. We also need a DT, I forgot about that. So we will be addressing that after next seaosn if not this one.

Sorry about the rant, so here's my point. Why is it that whenever we talk about fixing this team, if anyone says QB he instantly gets reminded of 5 other positions someone feels there is a greater need for? I have a couple of people say we can win with this qb, I have heard NUMEROUS others say simply there isn't anyone else with his "talent" that we can get. But what I see is, for at least two more years we will be fixing this D. If McCarthy goes we get one new offense and if Haslett goes after another sub-par season we get another. Even supporters of our qb admit it is a scary proposition to have him learning a new offense and having us trying to win while he is doing that. So why wouldn't we fix qb sooner rather than later? While we still have Joe. While the draft is deep at key positions? I just don't understand. I don't see how bringing in two or 3 new players to our scheme will make us THAT much better in one year. Maybe some do. But I do see how fixing the qb position can make us a better TEAM immediately. No more false love, no more great qb sorry team, none of that. The locker room becomes a better place and people respect the players around them, not hear crickets while your qb speaks to the team before the most important game of the season but a newcomer,MM, gets a roaring response. Discension from you KEY position on the team has a trickle down effect. So someone tell me, if we don't address qb with urgency, how long will it take for us to build a champion?

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

Short answer: never.

The core group of guys we have now, won\'t be Saints in 4-5 years (if we still own the team). They will be retired, cut, traded, ect. With our GM and coaching staff, nothing will get accomplished. They keep \"building\" on this team, when pretty soon, the core they have been trying to build on is over the hill and underproductive. Then guess what time it is:

rebuild.

again.

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

Whodi. Aren\'t most teams in the NFL in similar situations. With free agency the way it is there are few players who stay anyhwhere for 5 seasons. There are weakneses on every team, and the good ones are able to get results with some average players at these spots with good coaching. I think there is a ton of luck involved with finding gems in the rough, and avoiding injuries. I guess my point is I don\'t think we\'re alone with these personnell decisions, and no matter how good you are, you will make mistakes in your pick-ups wether draft or free-agency.

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

I agree, but i also feel we have more misses than hits!

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

I think that\'s my point, to all of you. We keep talking about bringing in new guys at all these other positions but we ignore the one that has been a problem even when the other problems were minimal. The one who has made all the cuts. So because we didn\'t address it before now we ignore it? I also agree the core will not be hear another 4-5 years. THIS YEAR should have been a rebuilding year but people wanted to keep their jobs so they beat the teams we were losing to earlier. I even understand that. But if we know Joe is heading into his last legs, and we know players from recent drafts are gonna be coming up renewal, cut or trade, how does keeping a player that cause MORE turmoil on the team help us reach our goal? I agree with you dberce, if we continue this was, we will be rebuilding in 2-3 years. I also agree with you Venturi, much more hits than misses. So we get a few defensive players this year, then next year when we are 30th instead of 32nd, we again ignore Brooks and whatever problems he is having that year(cause there\'s always an excuse) and pick a couple more players, and watch key players leave. FOB, I don;t think most teams are in our situation. Name to me a team that has a qb who thinks he is great and isn\'t, but SAYS IT, and calls the team crap. Another team whose qb says theyare filled with false love. Anyone else in the league? I don\'t think so. Only here will that be tolerated from a player whose talent doesn\'t back up his mouth. So no all teams in this league do not have this problem. On the field play is not the only criteria to judge how much one player affects a team, if the people around the leader of the team don\'t wanna play with him, well, that is a huge problem for me that needs to be addressed, and soon.

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

.

Got a link to ANY article that says that? Or even suggests that?

Cause I can find links to articles that say just the OPPOSITE.

You aren\'t going to win any arguements with things you dream up in your head. And unitl you provide SOME PROOF, that\'s what I think you are doing.

I\'m waiting on the PROOF, saintwhodi.

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

All the PROOF I need was provided by A)Charles Grant wantng to kick his arse and B) the way he got ignored trying to give a speech before the Carolina game. WhoDat called that one. So if that isn\'t proof enough for you, well I\'ll leave it cause it could be painted on the side of the Superdome how much other players dislike the guy and you wouldn\'t believe it. How about Kyle Turley\'s comments about him after he left? Is that proof enough? You know what else I have proof of? We are mediocre with him. It has been a constant for the last 5 years, including the playoff year. I can recite the record before Leon again if you like. There\'s your proof. Where\'s your proof to the contrary?

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

No link? That\'s what I thought!!

Get back to me when you got some PROOF. Until then, happy flying......... :P

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

Not to put too fine a point on this.

I think the Charles Grant incident on the trip back from the Arizona loss that WhoDi is alluding to probably fits into the category of common knowledge for Saints fans and probably doesn\'t need to be documented since everyone who regularly posts here is well aware of the plane ride and Haslett even mentioned it in his weekly press conference.
But it shouldn\'t take 5 minutes to document either.

The Carolina team meeting is a little harder issue, but was reported in several souces and was discussed at length on this board.

I will agree that if WhoDi is making a claim, then the burden of proof is on him to provide evidence. However, any claims being made at to the current QB\'s elite-ness should also be similarly documented.

.02

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

The rift Between Brooks and Grant had NOTHING to do with ANYONE saying they didn\'t want to play with Brooks.

What happened was Brooks called out the \"defense\" and Grant took execption to that and then called out the OFFENSE, not Brooks.

I\'ve NEVER heard ONE player say they didn\'t want to play with Brooks.

Someone please provide me with ANYTHING and I\'ll be sure to check it out.

I\'m waiting???

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

Billy - Whoodi is relying on my comments. If you watched the Carolina game, then you will know exactly what I\'m talking about. The commentators were talking about Brooks\' comments about \"being great\" - this was after all of the analysts on ESPN laughed at him and crushed Brooks on natinal TV, and the Fox folks, led by Bradshaw, made fun of him - during the game the commentators said that at the team meeting on Saturday night at the hotel, AB stood up and started talking about how it was a total team effort that got them there, how he was proud and confident, blah blah blah. Apparently, and according to the commentators, the team didn\'t react much at all. Mike McKenzie then stood up and got the team psyched up. He was referred to during the piece as the \"spiritual leader\" of the team. They suggested that it would be hard for a team to rally behind a QB who had called himself a great player on a bad team just a few days earlier.

Do you remember that? There is no link b/c it wasn\'t published. It was broadcast.

It is sad that a guy who has been on the team for less than half a season, and who was referred to as a basket case in GB, can come in and be more of a leader than a guy who started at QB for the team for 5 years. If comments like the ones AB made in the media, his comments about \"fake love\", the rumors about Horn being upset, Turley speaking out against him, Grant getting in a fight with him, rumors in the paper about the organization questioning him as the answer and starting to believe they made a mistake with him, and now his biggest supporter leaving (McCarthy) isn\'t enough to infer that Brooks probably isn\'t well liked or a good leader, then I don\'t know what is. Obviously, the team knows he can\'t lead - why else would they have sent him to leadership classes and brought in Joe Montana to tutor him?

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

Thanks Who. I was wondering why I couldn\'t find it when I remember you and I discussing it before. Glad to know I wasn\'t losing my marbles.

[Edited on 25/1/2005 by saintswhodi]

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

Oh, boy!!! This is worse than I thought. Didn\'t you start the \"Brooks Must Go\" club?

Not exactly a good credible source, IMO... :P

I watched the Panther game and no one ever said the team didn\'t react to Brooks\' speech. They did say that McKenzie was quickly becoming a vocal leader on the defense.

That\'s the way I remember it and if you have no link then I can\'t take your word for it.

The rest of that stuff you posted is \"skewed\" and that\'s putting it kindly!! ;)

[Edited on 25/1/2005 by GumboBC]

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

Gumbo, found an interesting article for you while looking this up.

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3281798

An article that focuses strictly how NFL qbs perform in clutch situation. But that\'s your boy.

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

posted on 2/1/2005 at 10:56

Anybody see ESPN this morning? See the preview of the Saints/Carolina game? Boomer actually read Brooks\' quote about being great on the air. It got big laughs before Tom Jackson suggested that Aaron Brooks IS THE PROBLEM on the team. They let Haslett off the hook, which I don\'t agree with, but they destroyed Aaron. I\'m starting to think Brooks may be gone after this year.

http://www.blackandgold.net/site/mod...hread&tid=7472


posted on 2/1/2005 at 20:50

Anybody hear the commentators today talking about the team meeting last night (Saturday before the game)? They said AB got up after Haslett and talked about how he was proud of the team, how they had done it together, and how it was all for one. Apparently the players weren\'t that moved - kind of hypocritical after his comments in the media. They said McKenzie got up next and he was really the one who got the team pumped up. I laughed out loud. It\'s funny that a guy who has been on the team for half a season has more credibility with his teammates and is a better leader than the guy who has started at QB for 4.5 years. I guess the guy showing the \"fake love\" is the problem, not the other way around.

http://www.blackandgold.net/site/mod...hread&tid=7471

Two posts from the day of the Carolina game. You\'ll see that they are exactly what I\'m claiming today. It\'s not surprising to me at all that you missed entirely any suggestion that AB had a flaw. Again, you\'ll see my recollection posted earlier in this thread matches exactly what I said then.

Frankly - I don\'t care whether you believe it or not. I could show you a document signed in blood by Tom Benson, Mickey Mouse Loomis, Jim Haslett, Mike McCarthy, and 20 bishops with corresponding DNA tests to prove it was their blood, in which they all agreed AB is the major problem with the Saints, and you would still suggest that I\'m skewing the facts for a personal agenda. I guess if anyone knows how to skew.... LOL.

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

Was there a rift between you and Aaron Brooks last season?

There were some things that were said that got back to Aaron.

Who said them? Did you say them?

I won\'t say. But there were some things that were said in our position meetings by all the players watching film. Those things got back to Aaron, and I think they made him feel like we were talking about him behind his back....

Did the rift affect the way you two played together on the field?

I don\'t want to say it did. I can\'t answer for A.B. I don\'t think it did. We\'re still men and we still have to do our jobs. I was doing my job and Aaron was doing his job.


Here\'s one of the stories about problems between Horn and Brooks posted on the Times Picayunne\'s web site. Is that credible? Afterall, it is on the internet, so you kow it has to be true.

http://www.nola.com/saints/t-p/index...9226281840.xml

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

Alright, normally I\'m pretty cool headed, and I like all of you guys a lot, but

I\'m sick of it being implied that anyone who thinks we can win with Brooks is an idot. I am not an idot, and I think we can win with Brooks!

No one has replied to this: Brooks has won a playoff game, he can carry us to eight wins with Duece having a mediocre season, our OLine sucking, and having nearly the WORST ranked D in NFL history. WTF.

I\'m as sick of reading post after post about why Brooks needs to go right now, when there are perfectly good posts about that going on with perfectly good discussions. It is like pretending to change the topic and then bringing up the same points.

No offense Whodi, I think you\'re great, and I love your arguments; you are easily one of the best new additions. I understand that you think no one is hearing your view because some people can argue to an impasse. Many people who are reading this site agree with you - you don\'t need to carry on a personal crusade. I\'m sorry if that came off harsh, but I\'m tired and I\'ve said a lot about this elsewhere and I\'m beginning to feel ignored (as you probably do). That said, I feel like we get somewhere in one post, and then three other post spring up with the exact same stuff in them.

THIS POST IS NOT ABOUT HOW LONG IT TAKES TO BUILD A CHAMPION, which I\'m happy to discuss at length, IT IS MERELY ANOTHER WAY OF BRINGING UP THE IDEA THAT BROOKS MUST GO NOW.

I\'m not saying that good arguments haven\'t been given, but when there are three other live posts on the same issue AND you intend to bring up the same arguments again - I say go back to the old posts and put it there. I\'m tired of discussing the same argument over and over again in different threads - when it is alive and well in SEVERAL other threads.

I\'m going to take some time off I think. This is dumb.

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

We\'re going to need a soy latte, fresh unsprayed organic fruit, yogurt and granola... STAT!! :)

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

I\'m re-lauching the \"Billy for Moderator\" movement.

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

WhoDat --

In other words.. NO ONE ever said they didn\'t want to play with Brooks. NO ONE !! Which is what saintwhodi said!!

I heard all the comments you are talking about and all they commented on was about Brooks calling himself great and the team mediocre!!

Then of course you threw in all of your \"personal\" comments.

Believe me, I keep up with all that\'s going on.

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

Kool, I never ignore you my man. We HAVE discussed your points in another thread and the INTENT of this discussion was to talk about building a champion. It broke down along the way and I will give you one guess where. Now, if I feel like we are spitting on a fire trying to put it out by dancing around the qb issue and that HINDERS OUR DRIVE FOR A CHAMPIONSHIP, it\'s still in the line of the thread. I also stated what is gonna heppen while we are trying to build this team through the draft and free agency and that one position gets ignored, yet it has really been the only constant and we are mediocre.

Sorry to say my man, but I am over the playoff win. Trent dilfer has a Superbowl, so by that equation he should have a free ticket to wherever he likes right? He coudl come here and noone should have any argument to the contrary cause he was the qb of a Superbowl winning team right? Uh-uh, no way. This is a what have you done for me lately league and Leon has done ZERO, Zip, zilch, Nada since he got to start due to an injury to the 7-4 starter. AS I said before, we have been mediocre ever since. That one playoff win holds zero weight with me and I feel he has ridden it too long now. SO if you wanna jump to the original discussion I started and explain to me how dancing around with other positions while ignoring that one will get us to a title, I am glad to hear it. What happens when Joe leaves or retires? Are you still confident in AB? What if he has to learn not one but TWO new offenses in consec years? Still confident? What if we lose offensive players due to cap issues or their wanting to go elsewhere? Like I said, changing 3 are 4 players on D, some of them being rookie, isn;t gonna move us from 32nd to 22nd. Changing the qb will promote better team chemistry though, and that is as important as \"talent.\"

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

I remember being cramped in the bucket seats of my mother\'s Ford LTD Station Wagon (a woodie back in the 60\'s) having, what my brother loathingly referred to as, \"Duh loves Prove-It\" arguments with my 2nd grade carpool girl-nemisis.

I couldn\'t have a discussion without the proof in front of me (and even then suspicious of it being doctored) and she knew everything, hence \"Duuuuhhhh....\"

I had really high hopes for this thread, but the nightmare of 7 year olds squabbling has ruined it for me. Great try Whodi. One day we won\'t get bogged down by ignorance or immaturity.

I think that the fragility inherent in humans playing a high speed contact sport necessitates having a backup plan. If Brooks were to go down, what do the Saints look like? What will be their personality/capability? I wonder if there even is a backup plan given the front-office decisions and coaching moves. Rebuilding could be a rediculous accident away this summer (eg Vick in 2003). Why can\'t the chess pieces be positioned like New England? Is this game that tough?

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

Sure Billy - split hairs. You can\'t justify statements to suggest that the team IS behind Brooks. There has been player after player, incident after incident, article after article, questioning Brooks. You know it, you\'ve admitted it. So instead of challenging the intention and spirit of the post - i.e. AB is on thin ice with a number of people in the org - you split hairs. OK, congratulations.

I guess you also believe that Bill Clinton \"never had sexual relations with that woman...\"

Sometimes Billy, you have to read between the lines. It\'s one thing to read into a single event, or even a couple, and make bold statements about what they mean. It\'s another thing all together to make a broad statement based on a variety of parallel events.

Let\'s put it another way.

1. Do you think there are people within the org. that question whether AB is right for the Saints?

2. Do you think there are players who question AB?

3. Do you think there is any reason to believe that AB may not be right?

4. Can you at least understand, even if you don\'t agree, how a reasonable person could weigh all of the stats, first-hand accounts (games), comments, rumors in the media, etc. etc. etc. and believe that AB is not right?

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

In the interests of providing an answer to WhoDi\'s title.

One good offseason if you have the skill positions in place.

Two offseasons if you can fix the skill positions in free agency.

Three offseasons if you have to draft a WR or QB.

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

Okay BMG, do we have the skill positions in place? Can all the needs be fixed in free agency and do we have the $$$ to do it? I don\'t think we need a wr this year but do you think it will hurt to draft one in the 3rd round this year? Just asking for your opinions. Also, if we can\'t fix all the needs in free agency and the draft so our skill positions are not in place, does that one year stretch to two? Also, if qb is a skill position and that position is questionable, will it help or hurt the process?

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

As I see it we have a 2 year window with Horn and the window is closing. There are 2 ways of looking at this from where I\'m standing.
1. The skill positions are all solid and we can make a championship run in the next 2 years if we fix the defense.
2. We\'re weak at WR and QB and we aren\'t going to get it done in the next 2 years.

I fall into group 2. I\'m not sure if we can fix everything in free agency this year, but on the plus side I think we are in excellent cap shape, so we should be able to make some big moves.

If a very good WR prospect fell that far, then maybe. Depends on what we do with free agency. If we follow the Haz and Loomis pattern we won\'t do anything noteworthy in free agency, so we probably have no business drafting a WR that high.

Depends on the skill positions and the personalities of the players you plug in. For example, if you could draft a WR who plays like Clayton did for Tampa, then you could be a contender now. But if you pick a player like Reggie Williams, then you have to wait.

Seems like it would slow it down.

My thought is: Joe Horn is aging. He\'s played hurt (spectacularly by the way) for 2 seasons now. I hope that Horn can play at a high level for 2 more years. I think we lose Pathon this year. I think Stallworth becomes a solid #2 next year. Henderson is a mystery. I think we\'re weak here.

Deuce is in his prime. We need him back in 1500 yard form. But I think we\'re OK here.

So that leaves us 2 years to make a move. I figure that we could be very competative next year if everything works just right.

So the BMG fantasy is:
1. Find a way to deal Howard for picks and or a player and a pick. This is a risk, but teams always give too much for pass rushers. I\'d try and deal him to Dallas or Detroit for their #1.

2. Deal Brooks for picks and or a pick and a player. Face it, he has the greatest trade value of anyone on our team, is in his physical prime and is about to cost us serious money. I\'d try and shop him and our 2nd rounder to Saban for the #2 overall. If Saban isn\'t going to bite, then I\'d try and shop him to San Francisco or Cleveland.

3. Do whatever it takes to sign Ryan Diem, Seth Payne and Ed Hartwell.

4. Try and sign someone like Mike McMahon to come in at QB.

5. If we can get the #2 pick from Miami, draft Derrick Johnson and laugh all the way to the bank. With Johnson, Harwell and Watson, the LB corps is fixed.

6. If we can\'t get high enough to get Johnson, then try and get high enough to get Jammal Brown or Alex Barron to come in at LT.

7. Draft Thomas Davis at our #16 pick.

8. Draft Andrew Walter, QB, Arizona St sometime on the the first day.

9. Switch the offense to ball control and rely on a stingy defense to get us into the playoffs while the new QB learns the offense.

I figure this would at least make us competative within the time frame that Horn is still elite.

If we keep Brooks, then I think we should make a move on Plaxico Burress and deal Horn because we won\'t be championship material before Joe loses steps.

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

The thing to remember also is that more and more , The College game , plays like the pro\'s..they mimmick the same schemes..and strategies that coaches in the NFL use today

Back in the 80\'s..it was hard..really hard to find a Rookie that could come in and start right away..or even in two years...

Due to the hightened awareness of College coaches..( some who have NFL experience), The players coming out in the modern day drafts are really..good players...and alot of them start thier first year...

It isn\'t as difficult to rebuild a team nowadays as it was 20 years ago...These kids are better trained..in better physical shape..and just more prepared to go to a team..and make a difference., They\'re smarter..and can play thier position , at times, up to NFL standards,,while they\'re still in College...

So..I won\'t throw away our chances of having a much improved Defense this coming year...Infact..if the Personel people can make the right moves..We really stand a good chance of success this year...

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

:rollinglaugh: What the hell is an idot?

Sorry JKool, that almost rivals the \"our team looks like carp\" thing...

And I\'m not gonna quote him, but I\'m voting BMG as our new GM.

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

Just for old times sake....

http://www.thejump.net/id/grass-carp.jpg

[Edited on 26/1/2005 by BrooksMustGo]

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

I have just 3 words for you..
I ain\'t a idot!

How long does it take to build a champion?
 

Very concise BMG. I like your strategy. But again, this begs the question, will this team have the cajones to make those moves? I agree if we sell out for D, but trade Brooks\' because of his relatively high value and appeal to some teams starved at that position, we will find ourselves in better shape come next season. We will kinda force ourselves into being more of a ball control team and we will have hopefully fixed the line where we can run the ball with better success. Cut down mistakes from the qb position by bringing in a vet, even a young one, and ride defense and running. But that allows for us to have a perfect off-season scenario, which more than likely WILL NOT happen. Or let me repharse, if it does I will be shocked speechless. Hartwell I feel is a must. Getting some kind of compensation for Howard is a must, even if it is just a 3rd rounder. It is better than zero. I don\'t think trading Leon is a must, but I think it would definitely help the overall health of the team. Drafting a qb at some point on the first day is a must to me as well. 3rd round is fine. But all in all, fine work. If only you were GM.